"We don't like snowballing." ™

Braums Biceps·Nov 27, 2014·15 votes·2,734 views

Can we talk about how snowball-y this pre-season is? Basically begging for the nerf-bat to start swinging at everything.

40 Comments

AnomalousChimeraNov 27, 20144 votes

Riot just needs to bring the PBE changes to dragon to live ASAP and buff the turret lasers. The lasers are very underwhelming at the moment...

timesphereNov 27, 20143 votes

I was able to win a game where the enemy had 3 dragons and 1 baron buff. And a Warwick. If you think the game is too snowbally then you are playing it wrong.

Earl EulrichNov 27, 20142 votes

It´s the other way around...if you don´t think it´s too snowbally then your opponents are playing it wrong.

BudupopsNov 27, 20143 votes

Ive never won a game when the enemy got drag first and vice-versa

kurufalNov 27, 20141 votes

I can totally relate to this.

Kuroi86Nov 27, 20141 votes

Won a game where enemy team had four drags and we had one, and no, we didn't get the first four drags. :P

Vellich0rNov 27, 20142 votes

that 8% damage is NOTHING compared to the global gold plus experience until late into the game. Yeah if you get all the dragons in the game that 8% will mean something (once you have like, 300 AD and it equates to a whopping 24 AD) and if you are veigar that 8% AP will eventually be worth a good bit, but in the end unless you are somehow denied every single dragon in the game, 8% is not going to mean much.

BudupopsNov 28, 20141 votes

Thats why they just nerfed dragon buff on the pbe...

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 27, 20143 votes

I don't know about you, but I like the new dragon buffs; they encourage players to get it rather than the jungler or support wanting it. If you are struggling from the enemy taking one dragon, blame yourself not the dragon. As the first dragon buff only gives only a little AD/AP, practically for CSing. I have done many games without getting dragon and baron while the enemy has and win the game. Don't freak out if they have so many buffs, focus and you will achieve.

EDIT: They added these buffs to prevent stupid throws by one of your allies, it truly helps in SOLO QING, but it does not snowball.

meatjunjunNov 27, 20141 votes

The problem is, they made the 1st dragon buff too strong.

I was playing top once and was winning lane; went up 2/0 and the opponent went 0/2 and was down about 20 cs at the 10 min mark. Then the enemy team got dragon and the top laner started out trading me, killed me, took my tower, and continued to dominate me the rest of the game.

IMO, they should either make the dragon so strong that you have to wait till the whole team is 10+ (like Baron) or they should make the 1st dragon buff the 3rd/4th.

DayblazerNov 27, 20145 votes

The problem is, they made the 1st dragon buff too strong.

I was playing top once and was winning lane; went up 2/0 and the opponent went 0/2 and was down about 20 cs at the 10 min mark. Then the enemy team got dragon and the top laner started out trading me, killed me, took my tower, and continued to dominate me the rest of the game.

IMO, they should either make the dragon so strong that you have to wait till the whole team is 10+ (like Baron) or they should make the 1st dragon buff the 3rd/4th.

I like how you blame this on drag and not just bad play and possible ignorance on a champions powerspikes.

Kuroi86Nov 27, 20144 votes

The problem is, they made the 1st dragon buff too strong. 8%

Do you realize how small that number is?

yacotaNov 27, 20142 votes

8% makes a huge difference. regardless how small the number is. i dont think its too high but i do think the buff order needs rearanged a little. like maybe start with the speed buff instead

MarhsallLee67Nov 28, 20142 votes

Even if you have 100 AD, 8% only grants 8 bonus AD, which shouldn't make that big of a difference, regardless of whether you're winning or losing when you get the first dragon buff. If that meagre 8 bonus AD suddenly lets you stomp your opponent, they probably deserved to get crushed and it would've happened pretty soon anyways.

GlitchedOutNov 28, 20141 votes

Even if you have 100 AD, 8% only grants 8 bonus AD, which shouldn't make that big of a difference, regardless of whether you're winning or losing when you get the first dragon buff. If that meagre 8 bonus AD suddenly lets you stomp your opponent, they probably deserved to get crushed and it would've happened pretty soon anyways.

That is the math for 1 of the 5 players on the team. Not really arguing against you, but your response is too narrow to react to the whole picture.

MarhsallLee67Nov 28, 20141 votes

Even if you have 100 AD, 8% only grants 8 bonus AD, which shouldn't make that big of a difference, regardless of whether you're winning or losing when you get the first dragon buff. If that meagre 8 bonus AD suddenly lets you stomp your opponent, they probably deserved to get crushed and it would've happened pretty soon anyways.

That is the math for 1 of the 5 players on the team. Not really arguing against you, but your response is too narrow to react to the whole picture.

The whole picture is that, until late game (when the ADCs have well over 200 AD and the APCs have at least 400-500 AP, or you get the fifth dragon buff and all your bonuses double), that 8% isn't really going to mean a damn thing, even on the fed ADC/APC. Tanks sure as hell aren't going to benefit from it, as their job is to absorb damage, not deal it, it won't make any noticeable difference on supports (unless they're deciding to not build any support items and just go full AP or something, in which case they're not really a support), and teammates that have already fallen behind are not going to suddenly start kicking ass with 8-12 bonus AD/AP.

Best-case scenario is that the tiny amount of extra AD/AP bonus you get increases your damage on your abilities because of already-high scaling ratios on them. Other than that, even if you're looking at an entire team, that 8% is still pretty freaking small. I've personally noticed no difference in strength in my team or the enemy's when either one of us acquired the first dragon buff- I've come back from games where the enemy team got 3 dragons before we even got one.

If the enemy team getting that tiny 8% bonus is REALLY detrimental to your team (or vice-versa), you were probably doing it wrong in the first place.

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20141 votes

MarhsallLee67 has it. Getting the first dragon makes less difference than backing for your bfsword as an ADC. The only point at which it becomes a snowball is late game when you're packing 300+ AD or land that fifth dragon and double all of your bonuses.

This Fkin GuyNov 27, 20141 votes

8% on top of all those offensive masteries. And items.

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20142 votes

Yep, it's very nice late game. Early game, a long sword or bfsword is more snowball.

Vellich0rNov 27, 20144 votes

at 10 minutes they probably had around 100 to 150 AD, if they were a tank possibly less, that means they mightve gotten 10 AD from that dragon, and if you can catch up to 2 kills and 20 CS with 300 golds worth of AD then you deserve to win that lane and probably just made an early game mistake.

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 27, 20141 votes

Couldin't agree more

kanachoNov 27, 20141 votes

The only issue is the stat changes they made to every champ, and the item changes to get everyone in-line for season 5 broke some champs, in particular WW is an absolute monstrosity now. He is absurdly tanky and only need 2 offensive items (skirmisher saber + devourer and BotRK) and he deals absurdly stupid high damage because of the true damage smite and % damage from botrk on his ult. He's so tanky and hard to kill because of the absurd sustain that it's not even fun to play against him.

I have 0 problem with snowballing if it is well-deserved, but if something is completely broken outright (like WW) who requires very little offensive itemization to blow everything up, and doesn't even need feed.... I mean that's just not fun.

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 28, 20141 votes

I agree, he is a monster and I think that he himself should be nerf not the actual items to crisp. However, everyone is using dragon is an escapegoat for their early mistakes.

kanachoNov 28, 20141 votes

Dragon isn't strong enough to put a team up to par if they are really far behind, and the buff only puts them up to par with the other team in terms of damage (not survivability) with the first stack on the buff if they are not that far behind to begin with. If the enemy team lets the team that is lagging behind get dragon, then that is their fault and that gap deserves to be closed somewhat like it does already imo.

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 28, 20141 votes

OH BABY! That is what I am trying to get across to people. I am going to copy and pasterino this. Thank you Fellow Summoner. Sona

kanachoNov 28, 20141 votes

lol, np.

doubleguacNov 27, 20142 votes

The way they described dragon, it sounded interesting and cool. It was supposed to be worth less than an early tower, but set you up for greater rewards down the line. So, teams planning on turtling and drawing out the game might try to focus on getting drags, whereas early game teams should just be blitzing turrets.

The problem is just the implementation. The first drag you get is already worth considerably more than a turret, and the bonuses keep scaling up if you are able to leverage that early dragon buff into a lead.

The first and maybe second dragon buffs should be smaller, so trading a turret for a drag actually puts you behind in the short term, but potentially offers more in the long term.

Vellich0rNov 27, 20142 votes

its worth around 300 gold if that. which is less than the value of global experience PLUS 300 ish gold

doubleguacNov 28, 20142 votes

its worth around 300 gold if that. which is less than the value of global experience PLUS 300 ish gold

Killing a tower gives 100 gold to every member of a team, plus 150 gold split between the people who killed the tower, meaning, in total, a tower kills grants 650 gold.

The first dragon kill grants 8% bonus AD and AP.

Let's ignore the AP boost for now, and just calculate the value of the AD bonus.

A long sword costs 360 gold and grants 10 AD. That means every point of AD is worth about 36 gold.

Using the above numbers, we can estimate that the total gold value of killing a tower is equal to the cost of 18 AD. That means for the AD component of the first dragon buff to be worth more gold than the tower, your team would have to have only a grand total of 225 AD. Literally any team is going to have more than 225 total AD by the time first dragon is taken (that's only an average of 45 AD per team member). And that's not even counting the value of the AP component.

This comparison is a little unfair, because bonus AD isn't necessarily worth its raw gold cost to an AP carry, and many AD champions wont be getting any value out of the AP bonus. Generally speaking, being granted gold instead of stats is advantageous, because you can spend that gold on whatever you want.

That being said, the raw gold value of the stats granted by first dragon bonus is vastly higher than the global gold reward for killing a tower. A conservative estimate of a team's total AD at the time of their first dragon kill is 350. Many teams will have higher than that. A team with 350 total AD will gain 28 AD from first dragon kill. That's 1008 gold worth of AD. Plus, there's an AP component to the buff.

yacotaNov 27, 20142 votes

lol youve never played during a preseason have you. its the entire idea behind it. they are making HUGE changes. you cant simply expect everything to be even close to perfect. hell ill warn you now it probably wont even be balanced out by the time the next season starts. Riot is doing alot of different things all at the same time. they cant catch every detail. its just a starting point so they can go from there and tune everything

Pvt Yong TaiNov 27, 20142 votes

I just feel the dragon needs to be stronger. I can kill dragon solo at rank 6 with both Warwick and Master Yi easy as soon as I get Devourer. If they wanted Dragon to be a team objective, it NEEDS to be stronger, especially early game. Just upping the attack speed a little will improve that significantly.

Killer X 12Nov 27, 20141 votes

I remember when they changed how experience work, and when they first changed how the first blood gold was (the 4 min thing). That was around the same time when every other game i saw a riven top start with a red pot. They said then that they didn't like how snowbally the game was...so they changed some stuff. Well..they need to change some stuff again.

Reynard the ƒoxNov 27, 20141 votes

Yeah when I read what they did to Dragon I remember thinking 'They did WHAT?

kurufalNov 27, 20141 votes

Videogamedunkey said it best.

Lao Fu the TigerNov 27, 20141 votes

Link? I wanna see this :D

Lao Fu the TigerNov 27, 20141 votes

Which would you like to talk about first? The multiplicative dragon buff? Or the untouchable minion baron buff?

NeoScoutNov 27, 20141 votes

I dont know why they reverted the changes to first blood either

MattAkhavanNov 27, 20141 votes

All snowballing is taking a strategic advantage over the enemy team. Getting a few kills on a mid lane and using that mid laners earned strengths to give an advantage over other lanes is the same thing as snowballing. No one complains about this function in the game because this is fundamental of victory. If snowballing didn't happen than there would be no reward for getting kills, getting cs, or getting dragons. Everyone would get the same amount of gold and exp despite kills or cs. You can't snowball a cs advantage, exp advantage or kill advantage because "we don't like snowballing". Dragon is the same thing. If you get dragon you are either trading something like a turret and map pressure in the area or you are just being strategically outplayed. Whether you have teleport advantage, vision advantage, champion advantage, or randomly stole dragon you are getting an advantage because you outplayed your opponent in one way or another.