Boards›Gameplay

Unpopular Opinion: Enchanters as a class aren't well designed, period

chipndip1··114 votes·6,379 views

Catchers: Most of their core strengths come from shit that takes a bit of coordination and aim to pull off.

Rakan : Pretty much sports a combo's worth of dashes to position himself in the thick of it, only to come sprinting out.

Thresh : The original "high skill cap" support.

Blitzcrank : Isn't subject to much nerfing/buffing because the value in him as a whole is centered around a move that inherently has counter-play.

Tank supports (Vanguards/Wardens): Not as many "LC$ BIG PLAY$" as catchers, but their core strengths also have counter-play to them.

Braum : Warden that body-blocks incoming projectiles, with a dash to get in position. For offense, there's a stacking mechanic that leads to hard cc.

Alistar : Vanguard that throws himself into the fray and shakes up everyone around him. Got tweaked quite heavily from season 5 to be in a very appreciable balancing spot today.

Taric : He's part Enchanter, but his core strengths in games lies in his ult and usage of his W to land his E stun. There's very high variance in his E and ult based on positioning and timing.

Enchanters: Low counter-play magic casters that spam one button all game for most of their appreciable contributions, save Nami.

Janna : Where's the counter-play to anything Janna does? We get that defense is a niche to fill, but Janna's TOO good on reaction, and coin rewards a low-interaction play style, which basically rewards her for doing jack shit besides pressing E.

Sona : No counter-play to anything in her basic kit. Either she loses too much ground before she gets her Ardent/Athene's core, or she doesn't and she runs you over in team fights while giving her whole team a constantly present Censer boost to maul you with. There's no appreciable middle-ground to her game play as is (but no one really wants to talk about that).

Soraka : Already got worked over heavily during season 6 for lacking counter-play, and now coin has her reappearing as a problem case. One again, she's too centered on her defensive value in healing and healing some more, with nothing to do outside of this one core strength that's impossible to play around outside of "kill her".

Lulu : Literally only Q can miss on this champ, and you can even put it right on top of the enemy so it'll most likely not miss.

Whereas the other types of supports in this game have appreciable variance in their overall output, many enchanters do not. Their game play revolves around simply shielding or healing someone or multiple people repeatedly. The enchanter class as a whole needs major work if we want to avoid dumpstering the fuck out of enchanter items to bring them in line.

And I better see at least you Karma QQ'ers on here. I know you're out there. Karma basically got turned into a massive shield bot, and there's threads about players' dissatisfaction with that all the time on the boards. Make a ruckus with me.

Edit: Just to be clear, here, I'm not saying "Defensive champs should gtfo". I'm saying "The implementation of most enchanters in the game is pretty lack-luster and one-dimensional".

Edit 2: So some people are thinking I don't play enchanters or I hate them. Solely for setting the record straight before people keep commenting with that type of reply:

https://i.gyazo.com/0a7c344ea123617951f1ae78186810e6.png

230 Comments

Mens Hair Club62 votes

trying to say anything against the enchanters

lul good luck

all of them need rework. doesnt need to be a class update but they and their items need to change

chipndip127 votes

As a 2 million mastery Sona main, I've been saying these things for...like...a year or so? On and off, anyway. Other enchanter players always disagree with me...but Idk why.

Mens Hair Club16 votes

and you've been downvoted every time . sips tea face it it's a lost cause

it also doesn't help that people are probably very sour about the idea of support reworks lately. The Karma VGU as far as I know (I wasn't around THAT early) was a disaster, Sona got reworked in season 4 or 5? and people were very unhappy about it, though I can't remember if it was because of balance troubles or just Fearless ignoring criticism.

i can at least kind of understand why people are apprehensive about the topic given riot's track record with them specifically (and I can definitely understand it as someone who's hated nearly every recent rework we've gotten)

Ahristocats37 votes

it is NOT AN UNPOPULAR opinion

also, wardens do not have counterplays to melees

what's the counterplay to braum as darius?

Mens Hair Club25 votes

taric has counterplay to melee

coincidentally he's probably the healthiest warden design

Ahristocats8 votes

i just hate that his stun has 2 areas, in some rare occasions it's impossible to dodge his stun because the 2 areas combined take too much zone for you to move in an area without his E

but yeah that's better than braum

Malicious Metal24 votes

As a Taric player: The Stun's extended range is only effective if the person you're linked to isn't an idiot and actively positions outside the hitbox and messes up the CC.

Even more reasons for me to flame my ADC

50000000000000006 votes

Isn't that kinda like placing delayed AoE skillshots ahead of the enemy as zoning? I don't think the stun being undodgeable in some situations is particularly unhealthy.

chipndip113 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAehaRs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-03T17:26:27.414+0000)

it is NOT AN UNPOPULAR opinion

Gonna just quote myself and slap it on here.

{quoted}

No

People hate them right now because they're winning right now because coin is making them a fortune at 15 minutes in the game, allowing them to land entire items way sooner than other classes. Riot doesn't want to change coin because, in pro play, coin's high gold gen in lane is needed to counter-balance the lack of gold supports get while roaming, but we roam less in solo queue, so the gold gen is blatantly too high. This gives enchanters a free lane just by going even, let alone actually building a lead. Then they build their items way faster than they used to and they snowball.

However, people don't get WHY they're so ridiculous in solo queue, but either balanced or straight garbage in pro play. Their core designs as a whole are unhealthy, something I've been trying to get people to notice for a long time...to no avail. Their core kits are just blatantly 1-dimensional, but bringing that up has some moron trying to argue that Lulu has variance in her game play "because you can click the wrong ally" or some shit (that was actually an argument I had to deal with at one point). This is basically a problem that persists with EVERY enchanter, save Nami, who finds her floaty skill shots to be similarly as important as her ability to heal allies, and even that has a bouncing mechanic on it.

There's a difference between "WHAAAAH THAT'S OP" and actually understanding the issue. Most people look at the numbers and end it at that. This is deeper than that. You know me enough by now to know that I've been having my eye on this topic for a long time, now.

also, wardens do not have counterplays to melee

Melee vs. melee tends to do that in 1v1/skirmish situations.

what's the counterplay to braum as darius?

Darius is naturally fucked over by kiting and cc in the first place...like most juggernauts. Best bet would be to hope you're tanky enough to survive the incoming facial reorganizing coming your way, then heal up with your Q on as many people as you can spin on.

I was honestly half-way thinking about making this same post...but for Juggernauts. May make one later.

Ahristocats6 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between "WHAAAAH THAT'S OP" and actually understanding the issue. Most people look at the numbers and end it at that. This is deeper than that. You know me enough by now to know that I've been having my eye on this topic for a long time, now.

except enchenters abuser like someone who put his signature at the end and i won't name/shame, everyone knows they're bad design

i myself find sona balanced right now, i find janna balanced when coin/ardent aren't broken

but did i say one time that their design is great? absolutly not, it's terrible, they're both a relic of shurelya's shitty ideas before she left riot while lulu is a relic of xypherous's "i'm going to create generalist designs because it's fun"

{quoted}

Melee vs. melee tends to do that in 1v1/skirmish situations.

no, braum tells to someone "you will not move for an entire teamfight and there is nothing you can do about it" that's terrible

{quoted}

Darius is naturally fucked over by kiting and cc in the first place...like most juggernauts.

weird, i don't get kited while playing morde except when i'm against this fucker named braum

if you're melee against braum you're just not going to play the game

chipndip110 votes

Sona's actually in a weird bizarro-world where she's super strong in solo queue, but super shit in pro play. If she hits her Ardent/Athene's core, she becomes super strong in team fights. If she doesn't get there, she's pretty damn shit. To boot, she opts for tear so she doesn't oom herself. She's extremely item dependent, and has been degraded to that of a glorified stat stick. In solo queue, this slides. In a more coordinated environment...not really.

And I never said you said their designs were fine design-wise. Even that fact checking spree from before didn't turn that specific notion up.

As for the whole Braum thing...that's just something that's gonna happen. Juggers are tanky, front-line damage dealers. Braum's passive, as a reactive, defensive champ, is easiest to get onto the first few champions he can reach. It's hard for Braum to dive into the fray and apply his passive to a back line foe, but it's easy for him to react to those that fly into him...given he's meant to be this impenetrable wall. This is, for the most part, fine. If you have a tank jungler, have them engage Braum so he blows Q on them first, rather than you. Outside of that, you just gotta hope your allies can pick up the slack.

Catastrop4 votes

People actually say clicking the wrong ally as Lulu brings variance and skill expression to her gameplay? EL OH EL These boards are officially Pokemon GFaqs tier clueless.

Velzard of Koz9 votes

Everything is unpopular opinion If you try hard enough and add "I know I will get downvoted" beneath it. Unpopular opinion here, Unpopular opinion there. Unpopular opinion for EVERYONE!

AirKingNeo6 votes

I think I'll meme this out for a bit

Hellioning21 votes

You know, there's more to counterplay than skillshots.

Ben Sharpio8 votes

right, like being point and click polymorphed, point and click exhausted, point and click this, point and click that. Complete garbage unskillful role

Hellioning26 votes

Point and click stuff needs to exist, or else hyper mobile champs will run away with this game more than they already do. Obviously, yes, it sucks that it feels like there's nothing you can do beyond 'don't get in range of Lulu', but the alternative is that enchanters are useless because they can't defend anyone reliably.

MangelinaJolie4 votes

{quoted}

Point and click stuff needs to exist, or else hyper mobile champs will run away with this game more than they already do. Obviously, yes, it sucks that it feels like there's nothing you can do beyond 'don't get in range of Lulu', but the alternative is that enchanters are useless because they can't defend anyone reliably.

You're implying that point and click is restricted to offensive abilities. It's not. Shields, heals and utility need to be more commonplace as skill shots as well to compensate for what they are capable of doing.

Hellioning14 votes

Skillshot shields and heals suck. There's a reason there's only one skillshot shield and no skillshot heal in the game. How is a champion supposed to A) dodge the enemy skillshots, but B) not dodge the allied skillshots at the same time?

If they made shields and heals skillshots, they'd have to be stupidly overpowered to compensate for the decreased reliability. I don't think you want stronger shields and heals.

MangelinaJolie4 votes

It's skill expression that is sorely lacking in any enchanter kit and their interactions with allies.

A player is supposed to dodge enemy skill shots while being prepared to receive any beneficial abilities through positioning. Right now that's more or less tossed out the window. Who needs positioning as an ADC when you have a Lulu who can dump everything on you and save you from being collapsed on with no thought given?

Interaction is a key word here for both allies and enemies.

Hellioning9 votes

If the ADC is in range of their support, they're already doing okayish at positioning. And right now, maybe Lulu is OP. But the solution to that problem isn't 'make her shield a skillshot'.

Also, if you can stop me from using my shields on my ally, how am I going to stop you from blowing up my ally? Interaction is a two way street.

The Bardic Gay3 votes

{quoted}

Skillshot shields and heals suck. There's a reason there's only one skillshot shield and no skillshot heal in the game. How is a champion supposed to A) dodge the enemy skillshots, but B) not dodge the allied skillshots at the same time?

If they made shields and heals skillshots, they'd have to be stupidly overpowered to compensate for the decreased reliability. I don't think you want stronger shields and heals.

We do have conditional heals, like rakan's q, which fufill a similar purpose. Nami's w is also an example of this, of sorts, though thats more constrained by it's mana cost than the bounce mechanic, but it's something at least.

Hellioning4 votes

Those are fine, because the actual supportive aspect is easily controllable by the support. Just straight up Lux W is horrible.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Maybe just don't make Polymorph super broken tier strong would be a fix, not making it a skillshot.

chipndip15 votes

True.

This doesn't excuse overloading a champion on point-n-click value. Too many skill shots and you end up like Lux. Not enough and you end up like...well...the enchanters. The best designed champs have a solid mix of skill shots and auto-targeted attributes. I'm asking for the same for enchanters, although the specific remedy would still be a case by case fix, some needing more work than others to fully solve.

Hellioning10 votes

Except the enchanters are the ones that need the reliability that point and click brings the most. They need to be able to save people in order to do their job, and skillshot shields/heals/buffs are just obnoxious to play around (have you ever had someone dodge your Lux shield out of habit?)

Maybe Janna could get rid of her point and click W, and maybe we can finally make Sona Q a skillshot, but other than that, there's not much they could do to make enchanters less reliable without massively buffing them in compensation (and I'm sure you don't want even larger Janna shields.)

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

Except the enchanters are the ones that need the reliability that point and click brings the most. They need to be able to save people in order to do their job, and skillshot shields/heals/buffs are just obnoxious to play around (have you ever had someone dodge your Lux shield out of habit?)

It isn't that the moves themselves need to be skill shots more than it's that too much of an enchanter's value is pushed into those specific moves, which have no counter-play.

If they did it with Nami and Zilean, they can do it with the other enchanters. Take power out of their heals and shields if they're going to be so simple so use and put it in something less one-dimensional so balancing them isn't so "all or nothing".

Hellioning12 votes

That'd work...but at that point, are they really an enchanter? If the reason you pick Janna isn't her disengage, is she really Janna at that point?

(also, I'm amused you bring up Zilean in an attempt to make enchanters less one-dimensional when he's basically entirely focused on QWQing somebody.)

Teridax6817 votes

I think this comes from a pretty limited form of ability design, which jinxylord mentioned in another thread:

[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nx0VVF2o,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-08-31T20:04:06.784+0000)

The reason we tend to kick supports out of mid is that support kits inherently lack counterplay to many of their defensive (and sometimes offensive) actions (they need this, else they would be ineffective at keeping their allies alive as supports).

Effectively, the reason enchanters lack so much counterplay right now is because currently counterplay is mostly just front-loaded onto abilities: under these rules, for an ability to have counterplay, it needs to be anticipated in some way, and therefore has to be delayed, a skillshot, etc. This doesn't work for Enchanters, who need their abilities to be on-demand, and who shouldn't be able to miss their key utility abilities, as it would feel terrible for them and their allies.

What this misses, however, is that counterplay can be back-loaded onto an ability, so the interactivity boils down to what can be done to react to an ability once it's been laid down, rather than simply anticipate it. There are a few examples in the game right now, such as Tristana's E (you can't stop the bomb application but you can prevent it from being charged up) or Blitzcrank's W (he gets a speed boost but then slows himself), and generally double-edged abilities like Kindred or Bard's ults tend to offer options to both sides. However, this hasn't really been applied to enchanters, whose on-demand abilities would otherwise make them perfect for this kind of counterplay, and as a result a lot of utility on enchanters' kits feels both uninteractive to the enemy, and boring to the player.

Let's pick Lulu as an example for this: as an aggressive support with a core theme of whimsical fairy magic, she should have abilities that are volatile and exciting, to the point of almost feeling out of her own control. In practice, though, three of her abilities offer extremely reliable utility, damage and CC depending on who she uses them on. The worst instance of this is her W: on allies, it's a pretty generic speed boost, and on enemies it's a point-and-click silence, disarm and slow, all rolled into one. It's part of what makes her such a strong anti-assassin, but it's conveyed in a manner that is not only boring in itself, but shuts down more interesting plays. There is no front-loaded counterplay to these abilities, as they cannot be dodged or anticipated, but there's also no back-loaded counterplay, as there's nothing you can do to exploit those effects to your advantage if you're her opponent. This is also why Lulu isn't allowed to be a successful top laner, as this kind of ability causes her to fundamentally lack interactivity. She's definitely reliable as an enchanter, but she's also far less interesting than she could be, and this excessive reliability is damaging both her viability out of bot lane (and in bot lane too, when top lane Lulu gets strong and she gets nerfed as a result), and even her fulfilment of her own theme.

Suppose, to pick one crazy example, that Lulu's W worked differently: instead of having two separate effects, it polymorphed any target she used it on, but instead of slowing them, it buffed their movement speed for the duration. Things would change significantly: assassins would still have their offensive power shut down if they get near Lulu, but the speed boost could help them retreat or reposition. Similarly, using this ability on an ally or self-casting it could help Lulu or her ally reposition in a pinch, but would also leave them otherwise defenseless, due to the pacify effect. It's an effect that would be extremely predictable in what it'd do, but that would also carry far more interactivity in how it could be exploited by everyone involved. It could potentially fit significantly better into Lulu's theme as a whimsical Yordle witch, while also giving her enough counterplay to be allowed to become a more viable solo laner, as well as giving her enough unreliability to afford her more power in other aspects of her kit.

Beyond that, there's also much more that can be done to improve the design of enchanters: too much importance is placed upon their reliability, which often makes their kits uninteresting as a result, and I think their kits need to have some power shifted around so that they keep their ability to make clutch plays and saves, while losing the ability to simply provide generic protection and thereby negate plays made by their opponent. Shortening shield durations could help with this, as would tying those shields' secondary bonuses to them staying up more consistently (Janna's shield only provides bonus AD while it stays up, but Lulu's shield also gives her target Pix for 6 seconds no matter what happens, for example). More generally, there should be more emphasis placed on the timing of those abilities, so that they achieve their maximum effect or don't backfire, rather than just the constant application of them, as is often currently the case, particularly since supports max out on CDR very quickly.

chipndip19 votes

This comment is gold in text form.

ProfDrDeath7 votes

Bit of a read, but very, VERY good arguments.

Concerning Janna's shield: What if her shield "siphoned" power from nearby enemies, instead of giving the full boost up front? With that, I mean that the AD bonus could be lower initially (like 40% of max value), but get 20% extra max value per nearby (target's AA range) enemy entity. Entity refering to individual champions and minions in their entirety (meaning, the bonus for the minion entity would apply once, whether there is 1 or 100 nearby minions).

SpecterVonBaren16 votes

Give it up for my girl Nami for never coming up in these topics.

So then, I think a lot of people, myself included, think Nami has a rather healthy design for an enchanter, so what is it about Nami that separates her from the others and how can we change the others to be more like her in terms of health?

Mens Hair Club1 votes

nami still got the problem of bein too similar to other enchanters (heal, speed ups, on-hit enhancement that usually benefits ranged ADs more, generous CC)

probably the best thing about nami is it's spread out in her kit instead of being loaded onto one or two spells like how janna/lulu have steroids attached to their shields

SpecterVonBaren13 votes

I think the thing that's really good about her is that her W, while being point and click, is both high in mana cost and low in efficiency if you don't take advantage of the bounces. It's not like all the other heals and shields that are low cost and low effort for max potential. Her hard cc spells being skillshots also helps make it so there's skill expression in her kit. Taric's heal is also like this in that you need to wait on charges in order to get the best value out of it.

That's something I think a lot of these enchanters need. Using an ability should be easy but using it optimally should require more effort.

ZapMyHeart15 votes

Karma wasn't even an Enchanter to begin with. She got demoted to one.

How's that?

[poppy-wink]

SociopathFriend13 votes

Hold up now- Raka has a lot more interaction that the others you posted. If your milestone for "too little" is Janna and Lulu, Raka has way more interaction and cost.

For starts, she has to land the (slow and telegraphed) Q to keep herself healthy since her heal costs both mana and health.

She also has a silence that roots if the enemy stays in it. While this can be used defensively, it can be used offensively as well. Players only using an ability defensively is not a champion problem.

Both of these are interactive abilities and the W, while not interactive for the enemy, does require more thought than spamming every time it's up.

Shadòw12 votes

"Unpopular"

Everyone hates that shit class apart from the people who abuse them, which are sadly quite a lot.

chipndip120 votes

No

People hate them right now because they're winning right now because coin is making them a fortune at 15 minutes in the game, allowing them to land entire items way sooner than other classes. Riot doesn't want to change coin because, in pro play, coin's high gold gen in lane is needed to counter-balance the lack of gold supports get while roaming, but we roam less in solo queue, so the gold gen is blatantly too high. This gives enchanters a free lane just by going even, let alone actually building a lead. Then they build their items way faster than they used to and they snowball.

However, people don't get WHY they're so ridiculous in solo queue, but either balanced or straight garbage in pro play. Their core designs as a whole are unhealthy, something I've been trying to get people to notice for a long time...to no avail. Their core kits are just blatantly 1-dimensional, but bringing that up has some moron trying to argue that Lulu has variance in her game play "because you can click the wrong ally" or some shit (that was actually an argument I had to deal with at one point). This is basically a problem that persists with EVERY enchanter, save Nami, who finds her floaty skill shots to be similarly as important as her ability to heal allies, and even that has a bouncing mechanic on it.

AirKingNeo11 votes

I mean these boards are basically made of enchanter players, mage players, and tank players.

Say anything against them and get downvoted.

Salson12 votes

You forgot Morde mains.

I think they use this place as some sort of metal spawning pool.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Because people who agree with you often don't need to make a comment saying anything. But when someone disagrees, they often do reply.

RedCyclone7 votes

Sona main here

Yeah I totally agree with the argument, they totally screwed up enchanters with shoveling so much power to give your ADC into the items, the good old AP Sona build I enjoyed playing so much is now considered a troll throw build because you just gotta be spending all your money for the ADC

It's basically back to spending all your cash on wards, but instead of wards, it's power you are expected to build for your ADC

I hate what support has become, to the point I am now being decayed and I just don't give a shit

Salson10 votes

Well their base fantasy is the RPG White Mage, which was fine in League's early days. Now as League is evolving, they simply became outdated.

Most of them are so old they actually need VGUs, as even the models are outdated.

That being said, I agree with you that Nami is well designed, and since she is the last Enchanter released, Rito might not be so clueless about Enchanters needing a different approach.

inplane9 votes

When Karma doesn't even come to mind as an Enchanter. That's how bad and bland she is right now.

[fiora-cool]

Sraeg20135 votes

Because her only appeal over Janna or Lulu is the early poke. After that she's useless, because other enchanters also provide actual CC.

SanKakU2 votes

[deleted]

Sraeg20132 votes

The nature of support Karma kit is "win more". She is only good at chasing.

Janna and Lulu are both experts at saving allies and making life of the enemy team a living hell. They both offer 2 separate hard CC effects and shields, and heals.

Karma offers a shield with movement speed on it with the possibility of casting it on multiple allies and that's it. If she RQs or RWs, she loses basically all of her "support" capabilities.

Meanwhile Janna and Lulu still have 3 other ways of saying "Fuck you".

Have you by any chance seen how Karma was played in LCS? She's a shield bot that helps forcing engage. The end.

SanKakU1 votes

[deleted]

Sraeg20137 votes

Basically, if you're a stubborn player, you won't like a champion like Karma. That's intentional.

For your information I spammed the shit out of reworked Karma for a full season at mid.

https://i.imgur.com/aBSMMqY.png?lol

Calling her a shield bot is ridiculous because she can slow, snare, and force the enemy to make undesirable decisions. She's way more complicated than you're giving her credit for.

In any situation where Karma is allowed to snare somebody a different support would already stun luck the enemy and their fuck buddy would be half-way through tearing them a new asshole.

Slows aren't a unique trait among supports, frankly I'd say that all "classical" supports have a slow.

And forcing undesirable decisions? Because of that AoE slow zone that supposedly deals damage, but since support Karma has next to no AP, people just walk right through it and shrug their arms? Or if you have next to no bonus MR all you have to do is take a step back, because it's next to impossible to get hit by the detonation without follow-up CC?

If you don't actively make conscientious compromises, you probably won't enjoy playing as her or against her.

I can tell you there are no compromises about playing support Karma.

Here's a Mid Karma 101:

Do you want to kill shit? RQ-Q-Q-Q Do you want to kill shit, but they'll kill you faster and you have RoA? RW-Q-Q-Q-RW-Q-Q-Q Do you need to get in or out? E Do you need your team to get in or out? RE

Here's a Support Karma 101:

Is it the early game? RQQQRQQQ Is it after the early game? REEEEEREEEEE

So I don't see where you're coming from at all with her being a 'win more' champion.

Because if she doesn't success spamming Qs early and Es for the entire game she has no fallback pattern.

If for some reason you managed to shit on a Lulu lane or Janna lane, they are still immensely useful for their team, even if their ADC is garbage.

Spoofghoul8 votes

I don't mind enchanters i do mind their itemization

although some better kits would help too

but all their itemization is blatantly geared towards boosting crit carries

item 3050 there +50% crit and no they cant get to you cuz they slow as fuck and can burn in hell

item 3504 more attackspeed = more crits with some draintanking to make it even cuter

I mean why does everything have to revolve around boosting the adc why can't there be separate buffs or interactions with other classes

mages could blow up the ice storm on zekes for some fancy effect like a knockback + some damage consuming it or melee's could gain their own zeke like aura for a little bit which shrinks quickly unless they hit someone

Melee would probably appreciate movement more on the censer buff

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