Why was dodge removed if critical strikes exist and do the opposite thing?

Meeks011·Mar 25, 2015·55 votes·6,610 views

For those of you that don't know, dodge was a stat that existed a long time ago and reduced the chances for basic attacks to hit by a percentage. It stacked multiplicatively, like tenacity. A lot of runes, masteries, and abilities used to grant dodge as well as a few items.

Dodge is a chance to reduce damage taken by a basic attack by 100% and critical strike chance is a chance to increase damage dealt by a basic attack by 100% (or 150% with Infinity Edge). So essentially the same thing, except that one is offensive and one is defensive. If someone with 50% critical strike chance was attacking someone with 50% dodge and crit on every attack that wasn't dodged then it's like they are hitting every basic attack but not criting.

The math gets a little more complicated than that but basically dodge countered crit. Nowadays the only counter to crit is a single mastery.

So I suggest crit be removed, dodge be readded, or some form of counter to crits be added.

Edits: About on-hit effects - You'd probably get up to 25% dodge tops, is it really that bad? If it's something like Siphoning Strike then missing won't waste the ability, you land the on-hit effect on your next attack or two. If it's frozen mallet, Darius Bleed, etc. it lasts a few seconds so missing won't effect it much.

Crits are satisfying - Why not just add dodge animations? If you're spamming dance near enemies then it's hard to keep it up, but dodging a lot of shit in a team fight would put your moves on.

Dodge > Crit - Not necessarily, it should be meant to be a tank stat. No damage mixed with dodge. And you're gonna be reaching like 25% dodge, while the ADCs are reaching 40%,55%, or 90% (fuck you Yasuo) crit chance. Also crit chance is so much more gold efficient than dodge. Dodge stacks multiplicatively and crit doesn't. There's an item that increases crit chance's gold efficiency by 50% and dodge wouldn't have that. Crit helps you CS and dodge doesn't. When dodge was a thing you could only get it from Phantom Dancer and Ninja Tabi. There are a hell of a lot more crit items than there were ever dodge items. Though dodge on Phantom Dancer wasn't really a good idea. Makes ADC 1v1s an even bigger RNG battle.

Everything in this game has a counter except for crit chance! Just now I played Taric and had 500 armor but the enemy Lucian was able to deal 1000s of damage in seconds.

160 Comments

ValyrianBladeMar 25, 201543 votes

I'd say there is a pretty big difference.

First, reduction is much more significant than addition. I mean, think about it: two champions with equal stats are dueling. One champion gets +50% damage, the other gets -50% damage received. Who wins?

Well, the one with +50% damage receives 100% damage. The one with -50% damage received receives 150%*50% = 75% damage. The one with the damage reduction wins by a large margin.

Likewise, dodge can be toxic while critical chance is perfectly fine. If you're very low health and I know 1 attack will kill you, I'm probably going to go for that attack. E.g. I'm tristana and I'm going to jump under the turret and shoot my auto, then jump out. Now suddenly you have dodge, you dodge that one attack, I don't get my reset on kill, I'm stuck under your turret for 2 extra turret shots and I die instead. It removes way too much predictability from the game and completely wrecks any strategy that used resets and a lot of other engages (e.g. following a kill up with Zhonya's, or starting to run before the auto attack projectile makes contact for the kill).

In contrast, no champion jumps in because they can get a kill only if they crit. A critical attack may affect a trade or a duel, but there are two key points here: aside from the 1% crit chance in runes that some people run you typically have 20% or more critical strike chance meaning that crits are fairly reliable in extended duels. Second, if you were going to win a duel and an unlikely crit rampage changes that, you can still disengage. The idea here being, you might have won the 1v1 duel but there's no way you were certain the enemy didn't have a nearby ally to jump on you and turn the battle. Why complain that you lose due to them having built 55% critical chance but they crit on 70% of their attacks in the duel, when they could have had 0 crits and you'd still lose when their mid laner appeared.

Finally, armor also counters crit. It's not like critical strikes apply armor shred or percent armor penetration. Your armor reduces damage on crits as well. There is nothing that can be built to make you dodge less.

Summary point: The entire game is balanced WITH critical strikes and WITHOUT dodge. There is nothing wrong with Critical strikes, they're just another way of amplifying your DPS output - while armor and health reduce your Damage received. The only time critical strikes mean anything more than raw DPS output is in early game trades - where critical strikes rarely have an impact and you can always disengage so the result of an untimely crit shouldn't be an unwarranted kill. If 1 extra critical strike is enough to secure the kill, that's your punishment for playing unnecessarily riskily.

PalPlaysMar 25, 20156 votes

{quoted} Well, the one with +50% damage receives 100% damage. The one with -50% damage received receives 150%*50% = 75% damage. The one with the damage reduction wins by a large margin.

Poppy : You called?

masterdragon481Mar 25, 20152 votes

I agree with your analysis of why crits have been allowed to continue to exist and why dodge was removed. Sound logic and I was very satisfied by your answer.

That being said, I disagree with your statement that critical strikes are perfectly fine. They are unfair, and they are the only aspect of RNG that has been allowed to exist in League, despite the call for tactical decisions to play a bigger factor than luck.

If 2 adc's fight, and one has 30% crit chance and the other has 50%, that does not mean that the champion with 30% crit chance can't crit twice before the other champion crits once. I acknowledge the fact that this is unlikely, but such a thing should not even be possible in a game that is being played professionally in this manner.

I would like to see critical strikes changed to a stack system. It would be easy to implement and would turn crits into a predicable damage increase. Make 10% crit chance becomes 10 stacks. At 100 stacks, your next auto attack is a critical strike. Roll over is allowed. This means with 10% crit chance, you will crit every 10 attacks. If you have 60 stacks, your second auto attack will crit, your third will not, fourth will, and your fifth will.

Of course, people say that over an infinite number of auto attacks, things will "even out." This would remove that "even out" necessity while maintaining a more exact dps.

So while I think crits are necessary in the game, I think they are not implemented well in this game.

SaiannaMar 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

If you're very low health and I know 1 attack will kill you, I'm probably going to go for that attack. E.g. I'm tristana and I'm going to jump under the turret and shoot my auto, then jump out. Now suddenly you have dodge, you dodge that one attack, I don't get my reset on kill, I'm stuck under your turret for 2 extra turret shots and I die instead. It removes way too much predictability from the game

You've made really nice post, but imo this part is best example of why crits also should be removed.

Why? Let's say you run away with sliver of health, enough to finish you in less than 2 basic attacks, but due to crit you've died. Where's fairness?

Fyi i rememebr how i lucky dodged final hit from ashe, as teemo. It was kinda unfair for her, but c'mon i've lost shitton of duels and teamfights cause of random zeal crit spree. That's just as heavy BS as dodge.

I also don't understand why dodging was removed instead of reworked to just like reduce damage by x% instead of nullifying it tottally. That would be fair for everyone.

NarasimhaMar 25, 20156 votes

I also don't understand why dodging was removed instead of reworked to just like reduce damage by x

Because thats EXACTLY what Armor and Magic Resist do.

Why? Let's say you run away with sliver of health, enough to finish you in less than 2 basic attacks, but due to crit you've died.

Theres two scenarios here.

The opponent has enough crit to rely on getting crits, in which case they deserve it, since they were planning on it
The opponent has a low crit rate and you got unlucky, in which case, you were just unlucky. Luck is always a factor.

SaiannaMar 25, 20158 votes

{quoted}

The opponent has a low crit rate and you got unlucky, in which case, you were just unlucky. Luck is always a factor.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/259/943/694.png (that is exactly my face after reading your post)

Same with dodging dude. Guy with last hit got unlucky. So dodging was removed

EDIT: about dodging as reducing x% of dmg. Nope. I meant something that adds to it. Could be unique max 20%. Would help every champion class. W/e i doubt you'd understand it anyways.

Meeks011Mar 25, 20153 votes

Except that dodge items and masteries should be tanks only and tanks don't have damage. When the person with crit is dealing 350-1000 damage per hit you're dealing about 100. When dodge was a thing Phantom Dancer had it, this was a bad idea. Damage items with dodge would/were just boosting bruisers and shitting on tanks even more. Imagine an ADC with Jax's Counterstrike. They would win every 1v1.

That was off topic, but I did the math and a full build Yi would kill a tank with 4000 health and 300 armor in 6 seconds, not counting true damage or armor pen. Or anyone with maxed attack speed and 1000 damage crits. The slight differences would only give you a couple more seconds to live. Whenever I'm killed in three seconds as Malphite I ask how and almost everyone says crits is responsible. Though every ADC building Last Whisper doesn't help either. The counters to crits have so many fucking counters themselves. Also as a tank 1v1ing an ADC they have lifesteal regenerating hundreds of health per second and you got health regen regenerating hundreds of health per minute.

Also, dodge only works vs half or less than the enemy team (ADC and most likely jungler and top). Crit works against everyone. And reaching such high dodge levels is not likely because it stacks multiplively.

Otter4BlueMar 25, 20152 votes

armor also counters crit if armor countered crit than stacking armor would be helpful against crit. however all it takes to lose 170 of the 410 or so max bonus armor, you lose so much gold and die anyway.

armor is no defense against crit, it is a defense against non-crit builds. i have done the my math too and found that if you had no LW than armor would work against crit more effectively but everyone else would not be able to damage tanks with ad.

the best damage reduction you can get from armor is 100/(100+260) = 78% damage reduced, which sounds like alot but you need to account that the average damage found of adcs full build is about 540 ad, which accounting for crit becomes 1350. making the damage be 300 of the 2400 health, or so, you have with the max armor build. which means that would take a minimum of 8 auto attacks or a max of 24 most likely about 12. this with attack speed around 1.5 to 2 will take 18 to 24 sec if it was just the tank and adc.

armor does not counter crit it counters ad damage which happens to be what crit amplifies.

now to be honest you will never do the full armor build as teams dont have full ad teams on average. making itprobably take less than 18 sec to kill a tank in a 1v1. this will be cut by half if there is a support there making a tanks survival time about 6 sec.

you think not having a dodge in the game against crit is broken? did you know that an adc can get a 4100 gold lead on most tanks by buying a single item. that item is LW. you can do the math yourself. afterwards tell me if you dont think that item should be the most expensive in the game.

MalganaMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'd say there is a pretty big difference.

First, reduction is much more significant than addition. I mean, think about it: two champions with equal stats are dueling. One champion gets +50% damage, the other gets -50% damage received. Who wins?

Well, the one with +50% damage receives 100% damage. The one with -50% damage received receives 150%*50% = 75% damage. The one with the damage reduction wins by a large margin.

Likewise, dodge can be toxic while critical chance is perfectly fine. If you're very low health and I know 1 attack will kill you, I'm probably going to go for that attack. E.g. I'm tristana and I'm going to jump under the turret and shoot my auto, then jump out. Now suddenly you have dodge, you dodge that one attack, I don't get my reset on kill, I'm stuck under your turret for 2 extra turret shots and I die instead. It removes way too much predictability from the game and completely wrecks any strategy that used resets and a lot of other engages (e.g. following a kill up with Zhonya's, or starting to run before the auto attack projectile makes contact for the kill).

In contrast, no champion jumps in because they can get a kill only if they crit. A critical attack may affect a trade or a duel, but there are two key points here: aside from the 1% crit chance in runes that some people run you typically have 20% or more critical strike chance meaning that crits are fairly reliable in extended duels. Second, if you were going to win a duel and an unlikely crit rampage changes that, you can still disengage. The idea here being, you might have won the 1v1 duel but there's no way you were certain the enemy didn't have a nearby ally to jump on you and turn the battle. Why complain that you lose due to them having built 55% critical chance but they crit on 70% of their attacks in the duel, when they could have had 0 crits and you'd still lose when their mid laner appeared.

Finally, armor also counters crit. It's not like critical strikes apply armor shred or percent armor penetration. Your armor reduces damage on crits as well. There is nothing that can be built to make you dodge less.

Summary point: The entire game is balanced WITH critical strikes and WITHOUT dodge. There is nothing wrong with Critical strikes, they're just another way of amplifying your DPS output - while armor and health reduce your Damage received. The only time critical strikes mean anything more than raw DPS output is in early game trades - where critical strikes rarely have an impact and you can always disengage so the result of an untimely crit shouldn't be an unwarranted kill. If 1 extra critical strike is enough to secure the kill, that's your punishment for playing unnecessarily riskily.

Your logic works the other way around though. Let's say I see a target who is one hit away from death and I know would take 2 hits to kill me so I decid to jump in on then, then all of a sudden BOOM CRIT I'm dead. This is exactly the same toxicity that you're implying only applies to defensive skills.

RNG is bullshit no matter what it's applied to and has no place in this game. Period.

You're also ignoring the fact that there are items that deal %HP damage and reduce your armor by 40%, but there are no defensive equivalents to these at all. Crit looks fine in a vacuum but when you apply all the other variables it becomes increasingly more bullshitty.

JedenVojakMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Likewise, dodge can be toxic while critical chance is perfectly fine. If you're very low health and I know 1 attack will kill you, I'm probably going to go for that attack. E.g. I'm tristana and I'm going to jump under the turret and shoot my auto, then jump out. Now suddenly you have dodge, you dodge that one attack, I don't get my reset on kill, I'm stuck under your turret for 2 extra turret shots and I die instead.

Yes this is good; as a general rule people are not punished nearly enough for turret diving - especially ranged champions, who do too much damage, have too many escapes, and are too safe.

Also, you're missing the fun of the person who would have died in that one attack and came out alive. That's a definate woo moment right there.

It removes way too much predictability from the game and completely wrecks any strategy that used resets and a lot of other engages (e.g. following a kill up with Zhonya's, or starting to run before the auto attack projectile makes contact for the kill).

Those things I would say are considerably more toxic than dodge.

Finally, armor also counters crit. It's not like critical strikes apply armor shred or percent armor penetration. Your armor reduces damage on crits as well. There is nothing that can be built to make you dodge less.

As I recall, Sword of the Divine used to counter dodge.

DurzakaMar 25, 201512 votes

Here you go, have a red quote from a while ago explaining the situation.

Game design is a pragmatic problem solving. Decisions are often not in absolutes, and have to be made according to the situation.

While we do generally want to keep artificial RNG low (as opposed to 'hidden information emergent "rng"' -- I turned a corner, and didn't know there were 3 guys there), we opted to keep crit but remove dodge for a few reasons:

Dodge is 'negative' RNG rather than 'positive' RNG. We found that players notice dodge a lot less as the beneficiary than as the person who 'missed'. So, it tends to be on net not very fun.

The more RNG elements you add together, the more maximum RNG outcomes you get. By removing just one of the RNGs, you don't halve the 'worst case' RNG outcomes, you actually more than halve them (A scenario where you are dodging attacks on you AND criting opponents).

Players were excited about building for crit, and weren't excited by building for dodge.. because criting is exciting and cool.

We wanted some build types to scale a bit harder (not a LOT harder) than others, and the existence of crit ensures that marksmen can scale a little bit better on DPS than does defense or AP damage. (NOTE -- a LITTLE bit)

Note that we also moved our crit system to pseudorandom that makes it less spikey (low chance of double crits), and reduces the impact on game objectives. So, I feel like this is a good balance between the various considerations. In total, our artifical RNG is very, very low.

Posted on the old forums by Zileas.

DrCyanideMar 25, 20156 votes

+1 for digging up the Red Post.

Personally, if a person wants to deal burst damage, I think they should have to use an ability.

Crit is randomly dealing more damage than expected. As the one going against Crit, you watch your healthbar slowly ticking down at a regular interval. You make a judgement call on if you can win that engage or if you'll loose it. That's skill, and it effects your strategy. Suddenly the enemy gets 2-3 crits in a row. That's luck, and it completely negated your skill and your strategy.

Can you imagine if there was a Critical Spell stat? If Syndra's ultimate could randomly hit for 250% of the damage it would have otherwise? If Viktor's Lazer could hit for 200% damage? Yet that would be more fair than Critical Strikes are now, since there's a decent cooldown on those abilities and you expect them to chunk your health in a large burst when they hit.

Crit needs to go.

Angry MonsterMar 25, 20153 votes

no where does it say burst in the quotes post. It talks about damage.

People that are building crit are looking for high damage with minimal safety(stats). You build into consistent damage. at around 60% you are pretty much going to crit 2 out of 3 shots. After all crit is a floating number that adjusts its self if previous hit was not a crit.

Can you imagine if there was a Critical Spell stat.

You mean AP? The fact some mages can do over 2k in a quick combo?

DrCyanideMar 25, 20152 votes

**Crit is burst damage on an otherwise stable attack. **

Minimal safety comes with any glass cannon build, it's not something unique to AD champions building Crit. You could build full AD without any crit and be just as unsafe as if you built 100% crit and some minor AD.

You mean AP? The fact some mages can do over 2k in a quick combo?

AP isn't a Critical Spell type stat any more than AD is Critical Strike.

Some mages can do 2k damage in a quick combo yes, but a late game ADC can do the same amount of damage in 2-3 auto attacks. The difference is that the Mage's spells aren't going to be up for another 10-15 seconds, while the ADC will just keep auto attacking the next target.

You can argue that's the pros and cons of each build, which is fine. I think that if an ADC is going to be bursting me in 2-3 autos, every auto should be doing the same amount of damage, so I didn't just die to the unlucky 3 auto attacks.

Angry MonsterMar 25, 20152 votes

Crit is not burst. Its a damage amplification that you build into consistency.

AP is damage amp that scales way harder than AD does. Also it is an amplification just like crit and AD is.

again ADCs do not burst.

DrCyanideMar 25, 20153 votes

The AD damage amplification could/should start and end in a consistent manner though, rather than being sporadic.

There's no reason Crit couldn't work in a manner closer to Rabadon's amplification (but without boosting spell damage), boosting the damage of all of your auto attacks by a set amount rather than occasional attacks dealing 2-2.5 times as much damage.

As it is right now, in the time it takes you to do one auto attack you can get the damage of 2-2.5 auto attacks in. That's a burst of damage in an otherwise steady stream of damage.

Meeks011Mar 25, 20156 votes

Veigar could build full crit and deal more damage than he does now. "1000 damage ult OP Rito pls nerf" then there are ADC's deal the same damage on a less than one second cooldown.

DrCyanideMar 25, 20155 votes

"Undodgeable ultimate which 100-0's me is OP. Ignore the undodgeable auto attacks that 100-0 your teammate in the same time it took for Veigar's ult to travel to it's target"

AnidanMar 25, 20152 votes

If you're getting hit for more than a Veigar ult, or even hit for comparable damage, by an auto-attack from literally anyone, you need some armor. Y'know... one of the counters to crits. As well as Thornmail (which, incidentally, has armor) and attack speed slows. Do you really want people stacking both heavy armor and Dodge to make ADCs feel completely useless against the target that may not even have to be a tank?

Dodge is yet another counter to crits that, if stacked back onto any sort of defensive item or with another, or 2 (Frozen Heart or Thornmail or Randuin's), would utterly kill ADCs. Hell, putting it on some offensive items would hurt most ADCs quite a lot.

For defensive options grabbing it, you have the obvious tanks, to survive initiations. Then you have bruisers like Wukong who like being in your face, and the longer they can stay there the happier they are. Or, if you add it to offensive items you have people like Jax and Irelia being utterly shitty to play against.

Re-implementing dodge at this point would be like removing Flash straight out: A decision that sounds good initially, but would pan out for the worse in the long term. Besides, like the removal of Flash, if you're going to do it, you need to implement a coping mechanism. An item similar to the old Sword of the Divine, or to pull from DotA, Monkey King Bar, would have to be implemented so that Jax of theirs couldn't sweep your entire team because your ADC just happened to go on a complete missing streak as if he was fighting a Phantom Assassin with 6 Butterflies with no MKB of his own.

MalganaMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you're getting hit for more than a Veigar ult, or even hit for comparable damage, by an auto-attack from literally anyone, you need some armor. Y'know... one of the counters to crits. As well as Thornmail (which, incidentally, has armor) and attack speed slows. Do you really want people stacking both heavy armor and Dodge to make ADCs feel completely useless against the target that may not even have to be a tank?

Dodge is yet another counter to crits that, if stacked back onto any sort of defensive item or with another, or 2 (Frozen Heart or Thornmail or Randuin's), would utterly kill ADCs. Hell, putting it on some offensive items would hurt most ADCs quite a lot.

For defensive options grabbing it, you have the obvious tanks, to survive initiations. Then you have bruisers like Wukong who like being in your face, and the longer they can stay there the happier they are. Or, if you add it to offensive items you have people like Jax and Irelia being utterly shitty to play against.

Re-implementing dodge at this point would be like removing Flash straight out: A decision that sounds good initially, but would pan out for the worse in the long term. Besides, like the removal of Flash, if you're going to do it, you need to implement a coping mechanism. An item similar to the old Sword of the Divine, or to pull from DotA, Monkey King Bar, would have to be implemented so that Jax of theirs couldn't sweep your entire team because your ADC just happened to go on a complete missing streak as if he was fighting a Phantom Assassin with 6 Butterflies with no MKB of his own.

item 3035 Exists.

Also, by your logic Poppy would be the most OP champion in the league, which clearly isn't the case.

AnidanMar 25, 20153 votes

How does my logic state Poppy is OP in any regard? Her passive reduces damage straight up... okay? She didn't entirely negate the attack, though. The only thing my logic would come to conclude about Poppy is "maybe with Dodge, Poppy would counter ADCs even harder than she already does." Everything that would apply to Poppy would apply to people like Jax, Irelia, Wukong and more.

And yes, Last Whisper exists, thank you for pointing that out. Because if it didn't then tanks and certain bruisers would be unbreakable juggernauts for ADCs... which is a problem, because ADCs are meant to shred tanks and squishies alike late-game. Armor shred/reduction is by no means a mechanic unique to this game, and it can be balanced. However, a lack of dodge does not instantly necessitate the removal of crit, either.

Implementing dodge, even at a hard cap (the proposed 20%), does not mean it would be balanced. Crit, however, is balanced because there are counters to crit. You can't reduce the severity of a dodge like you can with a crit. There's no glancing blow damage in case your attack is dodged; it straight up did nothing. However, armor can greatly reduce the effect of a crit, and attack speed slows reduce the frequency of crits, and in addition we come to Thornmail, again, which inflicts a large portion of the crit back onto the attacker at a rate that didn't even meet reductions. So if he would have crit for you 1000 before reductions, and you're walking around with 200 armor, before reductions, he took 300 back and did about 400-500 to you with Last Whisper, and healed back about 80-100 of that 300 damage he just took. That is an enormous reduction in the effectiveness of crit and auto-attacks as a whole. And it doesn't take a tank to do that.

With dodge, not only was your crit invalidated, but your whole auto-attack was. Dodge cannot be re-implemented without large shifts in how the game works yet again.

MalganaMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Here you go, have a red quote from a while ago explaining the situation. So, I feel like this is a good balance between the various considerations. In total, our artifical RNG is very, very low.

Posted on the old forums by Zileas.

That's something they posted just to get people to shut up. I can tell you personally that I had TONS of fun with dodge on Irealia and Udyr back when they had the old mastery that gave you extra movement speed for dodging attacks.

When that enemy ADC turned around to shoot you only to miss and give you a movespeed boost instead it was the best feeling in the world. You could argue that it wasn't the best feeling for them, but then I'd argue that being shot in the face for 250% damage isn't fun for me so we have to remove crit now because it's ruining my fun GG Zileas logic.

DurzakaMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That's something they posted just to get people to shut up. I can tell you personally that I had TONS of fun with dodge on Irealia and Udyr back when they had the old mastery that gave you extra movement speed for dodging attacks.

When that enemy ADC turned around to shoot you only to miss and give you a movespeed boost instead, it was the best feeling in the world. You could argue that it wasn't the best feeling for them, but then I'd argue that being shot in the face for 250% damage isn't fun for me so we have to remove crit now because it's ruining my fun GG Zileas logic.

They have posted the same/similar response numerous times, that is just the one i still had bookmarked.

Your an isolated example. In terms of game design, dodge is not fun. Especially when there was so little of it to go around, unlike crit, where you can reach 100%.

And as mentioned numerous times in this very thread, when an attack doesnt crit, you still get normal damage. When an attack doesnt land, you get ZERO damage. There is a big difference between the 2.

MalganaMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They have posted the same/similar response numerous times, that is just the one i still had bookmarked.

Your an isolated example. In terms of game design, dodge is not fun. Especially when there was so little of it to go around, unlike crit, where you can reach 100%.

And as mentioned numerous times in this very thread, when an attack doesnt crit, you still get normal damage. When an attack doesnt land, you get ZERO damage. There is a big difference between the 2.

Why not just make dodge more akin to crit then? give us an "evasion" stat. This would be a stat that dictates how much damage is taken off when you dodge, rather than just dodging and ignoring 100%. This would be just like how crit chance has a crit damage stat as well, except it would work in reverse. Ta-da, dodge isn't toxic anymore.

As for me being an isolated example, that's just bullshit. People used to run dodge on Jax Udyr and Irelia all day every day. They did it because those champs had built-in dodge that worked better with the mastery that gave you the movement speed boost and allowed them to be super tanky while also being able to keep up to the ranged enemies without having to spend tons of cash on tanky items. Pretending like there's nobody Fiora out Braum there Pantheon who Yasuo wouldn't Jax enjoy dodging 100% of damage on an auto attack is just straight up stupidity. Please stop.

DurzakaMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why not just make dodge more akin to crit then? give us an "evasion" stat. This would be a stat that dictates how much damage is taken off when you dodge, rather than just dodging and ignoring 100%. This would be just like how crit chance has a crit damage stat as well, except it would work in reverse. Ta-da, dodge isn't toxic anymore.

As for me being an isolated example, that's just bullshit. People used to run dodge on Jax Udyr and Irelia all day every day. They did it because those champs had built-in dodge that worked better with the mastery that gave you the movement speed boost and allowed them to be super tanky while also being able to keep up to the ranged enemies without having to spend tons of cash on tanky items. Pretending like there's nobody out there who wouldn't enjoy dodging 100% of damage on an auto attack is just straight up stupidity. Please stop.

So... Also known as armor?

Because that is literally exactly what armor does. It reduces the damage you take by a percentage.

And the champions you listed all have a dodge mechanic attached to a specific skill. A skill you can counter. A skill you can react to. It isnt a passive always there stat.

MalganaMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So... Also known as armor?

Because that is literally exactly what armor does. It reduces the damage you take by a percentage.

And the champions you listed all have a dodge mechanic attached to a specific skill. A skill you can counter. A skill you can react to. It isnt a passive always there stat.

Again, item 3035 exists.

You can have literally 300 armor and that item cuts it down to 180 while also granting them extra AD to hit you harder with. Going straight HP is more effective than armor against a unit who has this, but Riot also went ahead and gave ADCs BotRK to fuck with that stat as well. Offense wins out against defense in this game when it comes to itemization, BIG TIME. I don't understand how it is people can think otherwise.

All of this isn't even the problem though, it's about the random element. Crit is random, so you can never be 100% certain that a target, who isn't Yasuo anyway, is going to crit you. Imagine if Riot released a mage champion whose base damage on his Q did anywhere between 100 to 1000 magic damage, randomly. People would bitch to the high heavens and back again about how it's no fun to play with, but it's somehow okay for ADCs to have the exact same power.

Equating dodge to armor is like equating AD to crit, it makes no sense.

DurzakaMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Again, exists.

You can have literally 300 armor and that item cuts it down to 180 while also granting them extra AD to hit you harder with. Going straight HP is more effective than armor against a unit who has this, but Riot also went ahead and gave ADCs BotRK to fuck with that stat as well. Offense wins out against defense in this game when it comes to itemization, BIG TIME. I don't understand how it is people can think otherwise.

All of this isn't even the problem though, it's about the random element. Crit is random, so you can never be 100% certain that a target, who isn't Yasuo anyway, is going to crit you. Imagine if Riot released a mage champion whose base damage on his Q did anywhere between 100 to 1000 magic damage, randomly. People would bitch to the high heavens and back again about how it's no fun to play with, but it's somehow okay for ADCs to have the exact same power.

Equating dodge to armor is like equating AD to crit, it makes no sense.

equating AD to crit is perfectly fine. Because crit is a multiplicative of AD and ASP.

And it is still countered exactly the same as regular AD.

Dodge has no counter. You can hit more. But that isnt a counter because they can dodge more.

With AD and armor (and armor pen) it is a cylical relationship. They have AD, you build armor, they have armor you build armor pen, they have armor pen, you build hp. Everything works out nicely with each other.

We have been over crit being random so many times im not even going to bother addressing that, go to other posts in this thread if thats the discussion you want.

EDIT: Also, i wasnt equating dodge to armor. I was equating your suggestion as the EXACT same thing as armor. Giving a chance to reduce damage.

Armor/defensive stats dont need multiplicative scalings.

MarshallBanannaMar 25, 201511 votes

thing is,

not getting a crit means you hit normally. Critting means you hit more.

not dodging means you get hit normally. Dodging means you don't hit at all.

Also crit does not interact with on-hit effects such as item 3153 and item 3057 , meaning that, from a balance standpoint, dodging shouldn't stop on-hit effects, otherwise it would be insanely broken.

junglerboy16Mar 25, 20155 votes

This^ dodging 50% of attacks and critting 50% of attacks does not cancel out to the same as if you had 0% dodge and 0% crit. It would actually favor the 50% dodge pretty heavily because there is a 50/50 chance that every attack dodged is a crit in that scenario, which would reduce the DPS of the attacker by as much as 66% (if exactly 50% of attacks were dodged, and 100% of those were the critical strikes of the attacker, 1/3 of their damage would connect, not counting crit damage modifiers, in which case it would reduce it even more).

KaisadiIIaMar 25, 20151 votes

In fact, dodging stacked multiplicatively and not additively. Every champion had a standard dodge value of 100 (which means that you'll receive damage from 100% of the attacks you receive. Buying 10% dodge meant 100 - 10%: you had 90 dodge. If you buy another 10% dodge, you have 90 - 10%: 81 dodge. And so on.

Also, dodge was far less accessible than critical chance, you didn't end a game with 50 or 60% dodge change iirc.

tainteddazeMar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In fact, dodging stacked multiplicatively and not additively. Every champion had a standard dodge value of 100 (which means that you'll receive damage from 100% of the attacks you receive. Buying 10% dodge meant 100 - 10%: you had 90 dodge. If you buy another 10% dodge, you have 90 - 10%: 81 dodge. And so on.

Also, dodge was far less accessible than critical chance, you didn't end a game with 50 or 60% dodge change iirc.

fuck dodge stat was completely bullshit it made certain champions worthless against the person who had it meaning certain team strats got killed out due to dodge chance and so on. It honestly was ruining the game if crit is to overbearing they can always lower the crit damage values also crit is noticable some dude dodging 4 of my AA's in a row at 20 hp cause his stupid ninja tabi boots which happened to me vs a kennen in many fucking games is just stupid as fuck. The person isn't doing anything first off but standing there at least with crit i have to go into dangerous zones to land it and it may not even hit if i am not at like 90-100% crit chance. So once again crit has player interaction on top of the fact while dodge is just get it and go. Its sort of like how sunfire cape stacking was dumber then fuck also just buy 6 of them and stand there your unkillable and do more damage then real carries do same concept both needed to get removed and they did. Crit is just a random ass chance on a player interactable skill sure it sucks to get crit but when you crit you full good about it. That is the point of it your placing stats into a risk/reward that has interaction to it. Dodge was just throwing stats into something and going troll time woooo hooooooooooooooooo come on random fucking dodge that i wont' even see half the time i dodged.

KaisadiIIaMar 26, 20152 votes

I never defended dodge. Actually, I wasn't even giving an opinion. I was just explaining how dodge worked.

It's like you try to defend nazism was bad to a history teacher that is talking about the Third Reich to their students.

MarshallBanannaMar 25, 20156 votes

Here's a question. What would you rather play against.

A champion who can occasionally hit you for 2x damage?, or A champion who can occasionally completely ignore one of your attacks?

This drifts away from mere balance issues and strays into gameplay feel and satisfaction territory.

Players are willing to accept getting hit with powerful effects a lot more than they are willing to have their actions nullified, even if the net result is the same.

Having the enemy dodge your attacks feels like the game is taking control away from the player, since your skills are irrelevant against a dodge chance.

VoishinMar 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Here's a question. What would you rather play against.

A champion who can occasionally hit you for 2x damage?, or A champion who can occasionally completely ignore one of your attacks?

This drifts away from mere balance issues and strays into gameplay feel and satisfaction territory.

Players are willing to accept getting hit with powerful effects a lot more than they are willing to have their actions nullified, even if the net result is the same.

Having the enemy dodge your attacks feels like the game is taking control away from the player, since your skills are irrelevant against a dodge chance.

This is exactly what they did at the time. Claimed they knew exactly what "players" wanted and felt. You are not all players.

Riot also claimed that champions were only popular if they were humans because it gave something to relate to (that's why there were so few monsters then). What has their more recent release of "monsters" shown? It's about play style, power, and fun instead.

They aren't nearly as great of psychologists as they think, and are really bad at interpreting data. You seem to be just as bad.

MarshallBanannaMar 25, 20153 votes

Really?

Check TF2's Sandman and Natasha. The reason why this 2 weapons where repeatedly nerfed may times was because they took power away from the player, applying debuff status effects unlike most other weapons. I'm not making this up, and arguments such as the one i posted above where being made by hundreds of players on the forum, leading to their eventual nerf.

This isn't just a random opinion that i sprung out of my arse. It is one of the axis of game design. Players play to, well, play. If you have a mechanic that takes away control form the player, you are partially nullifying the very reason the players play to begin with. The more in control they are, the better.

Also, check your salt levels. They might be a little high

CplTruebladeMar 25, 20152 votes

But being the argument of this OP is that Crit does exactly the same thing. Yeah, it's fun to have an IE and crit someone for 400 when you have just 1 AD item. But not when you're on the receiving end. Nobody says; "Oh man, this game is so fun when I get crit in the face." Same thing applies for Dodge. It's fun for the person who Does dodge, and not fun for the person who get's dodged.

The red post someone pasted here said that the beneficiary of the dodge stat doesn't feel like it's doing anything for them. I'm sorry that is blatantly wrong.

When dodge did exist most ADCs (And personally, I did this on all my roles) would take .5% dodge rune just in case you get a proc. People do the same thing with crit. If I was laneing against an enemy ADC and they reach in for poke I return the shot. if I dodged their attack, I'm going to all in them immediately.

I for one think that the issue with dodge is that so many people (and probably riot devs) are split on the decision. If they really want to eliminate RNG they HAVE to get rid of Crit. But most people don't want that and if they did they would need to fully re-work many champions. So if you take the RNG element out of the argument then there is no reason to remove dodge. I think they should put dodge back on Tabi, give maybe 5 or 10% to the Ghost summoner spell (Or a new spell that says you dodge the next 3 attacks) and give small amounts of dodge on items which have 0 offensive stats.

Some people mentioned that it was dumb that dodge would mitigate 100% of the damage. I don't belive that this is really a problem but we can leave it up to Riot's balance team to determine if maybe "dodge" should actually be "parry" and you can get "glancing blows" so it's a %chance to take 50% reduced damage on the hit.

I think this was purposed and someone replied "That's what armor is for". Fair enough, but what if Dodge is cheaper to buy than armor, but less available (builds into less items). Then someone like Jax can build Dodge as a cheap "armor" item. Why is that a problem?

MarshallBanannaMar 25, 20152 votes

dodge as 100 or 0 is hard to balance. and on-hit make it even worse.

A dodge that simply mitigates a % of the damage is essentially armor.

Dodge being an unreliable armor is probably something riot will never do, since they appear to be moving away from RNG

MartyrofsandMar 25, 20154 votes

Jax getting pentakills on teams containing Kayle and Tryn through their ults in the enemy fountain is why dodge was removed. Crit can be random but it doesn't allow for crazy crap like that.

junglerboy16Mar 25, 20155 votes

Well, since that time the fountain obelisk has been recoded to go through invulnerability, deals pure damage, and a whopping 1k DPS. A Jax with full dodge and counterstrike up wouldn't be able to do that anymore at all.

They could also do what DotA 2 has an make an item that makes it impossible to dodge attacks...

DreadlocksMar 25, 20153 votes

MkB Monkey King Bar!!! =]

ZarxisMar 25, 20154 votes

RNG doesn't belong in League of Legends. Critical chance isn't as bad as dodge was, but it's still chance-based, rather than skill-based or flat-number-based (ex: targeted abilities with no chance-based mechanics). No one should win or lose a fight because of a few lucky virtual dice rolls.

Again, crit chance isn't as crazy as dodge was, but in its current chance-based form, it does not belong in this game.

junglerboy16Mar 25, 20157 votes

Actually, the pseudoRNG that League currently uses is not even remotely the same as what most people think of when they read RNG. The thing about Crit is that you will always crit a certain number of times a certain number of attacks, instead of just rolling the dice and saying, " well you had 50% crit, and you got lucky and rolled crit every attack" (which is how it used to work). Now it works more like this: "crit: Yes? No? if yes, reduce crit chance on next attack. If no, increase crit chance on next attack, rinse and repeat." It still has a degree of randomness to it, but it is not actually random enough to invalidate skill in a matchup. If you go low enough that a crit could kill you, but you keep fighting, you are the one taking a risk and relying on luck, so it is your fault. If you get crit a few times in lane and have to back, that kind of sucks, but it is still your fault for taking auto attack harass to begin with. If you lose a trade because they got some extra crits than you, you should have known better enough to back out before they killed you (oh no, got crit twice, I should back out) or you were low enough that you would have died under most circumstances anyway.

Crit isn't perfect, but it is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

Meeks011Mar 25, 20152 votes

So few people know this.

CastmanMar 25, 20154 votes

I see your point.

However the "dodge" mechanic was considered so toxic that not only LoL removed it from gameplay, Diablo3 (kinda) did too lol. They all hate dodge because apparently "not reliable defense". Apparently crit chance is a reliable offense o.O

RisurinMar 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So I suggest crit be removed, dodge be readded, or some form of counter to crits be added.

armor counter critical strikes.

Meeks011Mar 25, 20152 votes

There are like over 4 anti-armor items in the game. How many anti-crit items are there? And reducing 1000 damage by 75% isn't gonna do much for me. I'll just die in 5 seconds instead of 0.5 of one.

RisurinMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There are like over 4 anti-armor items in the game. How many anti-crit items are there? And reducing 1000 damage by 75% isn't gonna do much for me. I'll just die in 5 seconds instead of 0.5 of one.

4 anti armor items ? i guess you mean brutalizer upgrades. which are all flat penetration between 10 and 20, not really important against heavy armored tanks, + the little extra damage reduce from black cleaver passive. Then you see FH is +100 armor, Thornmail is +100 armor, randuin is +70 armor, IBG is +60 armor, and that just 4 out of the lot. Now, i'm not sure if i understand correctly, you say you only live 5 sec when you have 75% damage reduce against 1k damage. alright lets pretend the guy is landing 100% critical hit chance (normal builds will have around 50% chance) thats 250 damage per hit, if that adc, on top of his 100% critical chance has 2 AS that mean he has done 2.5k damage after that time. thats not a lot of hp for a tank. So while i'm not entirely sure an ADC with 6 items (no defensive items) can get that much damage output, you clearly dont have the hp of a tank, and get rekt by late game 6 items adc, and thats without counting AS slow from randuin and FH, reflected damage from thornmail, and i assume you not exactly just standing still has a tank.

Maybe you have trouble with your tank itemization?

Meeks011Mar 26, 20152 votes

Last Whisper, ever heard of it? So you have 300 armor then suddenly a third of it is meaningless.

Say they have armor pen runes/masteries and all the anti-armor items vs someone with 300 armor. 25% reductionmakes it into 225 armor. 39% armor penetration makes it into 137 armor. Then 39 flat armor penetration makes it into 98. 2 of your armor items now don't mean much. 50% reduction of physical damage now.

And then there's the fact that every other champion seems to have true damage. And then there's also item 3153 countering you as well.

Also, lifesteal counters Thornmail.

RisurinMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Last Whisper, ever heard of it? So you have 300 armor then suddenly a third of it is meaningless.

Say they have armor pen runes/masteries and all the anti-armor items vs someone with 300 armor. 25% reductionmakes it into 225 armor. 39% armor penetration makes it into 137 armor. Then 39 flat armor penetration makes it into 98. 2 of your armor items now don't mean much. 50% reduction of physical damage now.

And then there's the fact that every other champion seems to have true damage. And then there's also countering you as well.

Also, lifesteal counters Thornmail.

Alright.

So first, do you want tank to be unkillable monster late game ? because removing armor penetration does just that, and it will mean that a bunch of tanks with like 1 or 2 waveclear champion is the new meta for every game. making most assassins/marksman not worth playing. That's just bad game balance itself.

Then look at the number you gave us. 39% armor penetration (which is LW + masteries) means 300 armor goes down to about 183 armor, not 137, and thats still 65% damage reduction. As for marksmen, they dont usually build the other armor penetration items, as for assassins/fighters they will reduce your armor by an addition 10 or 20 armor. a bit more reduction if they go cleaver, but they need to be hitting you for a long time, and if they get full penetration items, you still have HP to tank and Tank usually have CCs and base damage to fight back. That's why you dont usually see assassins fighting tanks (of course if there isnt a huge difference in levels and gold).

There is literally 14 champions out of 124 that deal true damage (if i dont count the 1 true damage from some abilities like trundle pillar). 2 of them need to die to have access to it, 1 can only use it against minions and monsters.

Champions who deal true damage with standard attacks Corki's Hextech Shrapnel Shells [P] Irelia's Hiten Style [W] (active only) Twitch's Deadly Venom [P] (applies true damage over time) Vayne's Silver Bolts [W] (upon 3rd consecutive hit on a single target) Master Yi's Wuju Style [E] (on autoattacks, but for duration of ability only)

Champions who deal true damage with abilities Ahri's Orb of Deception [Q] (upon retraction) Cho'Gath's Feast [R] Darius's Noxian Guillotine [R] Kog'Maw's Icathian Surprise [P] (available once after dying) Nunu's Consume [Q] (only to minions, neutral monsters, and pets.) Olaf's Reckless [E] Swing Rek'Sai's Furious Bite [E] (100 Fury) Vel'Koz's Organic Deconstruction [P] (upon 3rd consecutive abilities on a single target) Zyra's Rise of the Thorns [P] (available once after dying) Not exactly as many champion as you implied.

Blade of the ruined king is a necessary for the same reason i described earlier, and because something like a mundo with thornmail and 5 warmogs isnt really what you expect from a balance perspective. There is 2 high armor attack speed slow that work well against the item, and champions that use that item in general. Also, ruined king is only become good when you face champion with a lot more hp then armor, its still physical damage.

Not sure where you get that lifesteal counter thornmail, but if we compare it to bloodthirster, 30% damage reflection **before **considering any reduction from armor and other sources, is stronger then 20% hp drain after reduction from armor and other sources.

Overall, Champion who build damage should have a way to deal damage, since they are squishy. Tank can definatly still fight them and turret dive them, due to their hp and defenses, and usually CCs, but overall they work best when teamfighting. Thats the whole point of tanks. You are soaking the damage for your carries, so they can deal theirs. It's not about diving 1v5 for a pentakill, because you are unkillable, that would be poor balance. That's why penetration is a necessary stats. Remember that ADCs need time and gold to get to a high damage output point, while most tank item are fairly cheap in comparaison.

Meeks011Mar 27, 20151 votes

25% armor reduction before penetration.

{quoted}

Champions who deal true damage with standard attacks Corki's Hextech Shrapnel Shells [P] Irelia's Hiten Style [W] (active only) Twitch's Deadly Venom [P] (applies true damage over time) Vayne's Silver Bolts [W] (upon 3rd consecutive hit on a single target) Master Yi's Wuju Style [E] (on autoattacks, but for duration of ability only)

Champions who deal true damage with abilities Ahri's Orb of Deception [Q] (upon retraction) Cho'Gath's Feast [R] Darius's Noxian Guillotine [R] Kog'Maw's Icathian Surprise [P] (available once after dying) Nunu's Consume [Q] (only to minions, neutral monsters, and pets.) Olaf's Reckless [E] Swing Rek'Sai's Furious Bite [E] (100 Fury) Vel'Koz's Organic Deconstruction [P] (upon 3rd consecutive abilities on a single target) Zyra's Rise of the Thorns [P] (available once after dying) Not exactly as many champion as you implied.

Fuck, I still count it as correct cause ignite and smite and shit. Checkmate, atheists.

You lifesteal the same amount no matter how much damage you deal. Why do you think you get a bunch of health for killing wards?

And tanks have the lowest number of kills out of all champions. They're not meant for damage. "Malphite Q 220 damage OP, omg 280 damage E one-shot our team, ult too OP half my health omg" Unless you have at least two AP items you're not dealing shit for damage. And you rely almost entirely on spells cause 70 damage every 1.5 seconds from basic attacks ain't gonna cut it. I think you're talking about bruisers.

'Most tank items are pretty cheap in comparison.' Yeah, cause they get no kills. Every champ in the game heavily outdamages tanks unless you're stupid enough to focus the Rammus as an ADC or build no penetration items.