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Zed's ability to kill people isn't the issue

Miraweave··34 votes·3,140 views

Zed is one of the more healthy assassins in the game when it comes to the way he actually all-ins you. The problem is the fact that he's got a strong all-in on top of a really powerful laning phase. Especially after the last buffs, his harass is reliable and does a lot of damage while having no long-term cost. Ideally, the right way to change him is to reduce his ability to just harass people down while keeping his all-in damage the same.

As such, I think a good solution would be to reduce the damage on his Q and then increase the damage he gets for hitting multiple Qs on the same target to compensate. He does sometimes get multi Q hits in lane, but that requires him to take a few more risks and is easier to deal with, and his really fast WEQ combo wouldn't be as good of a tool for poking people down in lane.

His all-in would do about the same damage if he was landing multiple Qs, so all this does is make him need to take more risks to kill someone. Strong manaless harass is rarely a fun thing to deal with (Vladimir Kennen Gnar have all been problems in the past because of it), and I think this is the best way of reducing Zed's harass without weakening his ability to burst people down.

92 Comments

Slamurai Jack11 votes

Being a strong laner is pretty much the only advantage he has over other assassins.

Stars Shaper20 votes

The only assassin who can all in and all out better than zed is Fizz and he is a bullcrap of a character that should have his CDs doubled

Melledoneus4 votes

At least you can build MR and HP against Fizz.

Fiora "Oh, hello. Vere did yo health bar go? Oopz."

Stars Shaper10 votes

I would face a team of full Fiora more gladly since I can actually CC her and kill her before she gets to me instead of having a physics defying fish which can stand on a pole and become untargetable with 4.4 seconds cd which also gets him freely to me, deals a larger amount of damage and get out before I can even AA once or cast one skill.

Melledoneus2 votes

You forget about her W and her literal ability to blow up your front line.

Dar Raksada3 votes

{quoted}

You forget about her W and her literal ability to blow up your front line.

Or he doesn't blow everything when Fiora presses w.

Stars Shaper2 votes

This

Plus her W doesn't give her a gap closer/opener and doesn't delete half of your life.

Melledoneus3 votes

Her Q does.

Stars Shaper2 votes

I can still stun her while she charges.

Melledoneus1 votes

You can build MR against Fizz.

Stars Shaper2 votes

So you are saying that locking down a character with high chances of killing her is the same of recieving a biut less of damage from a chacracter that can bypass your defenses anyway?

Melledoneus1 votes

Using that much CC on Fiora means the rest of her team just won a team fight. Not to mention you can't exactly lock her down for a while, since her W prevents that. Fizz actually has clear windows of weakness if you get even a slow on him and his E is on cooldown. Marksmen that are mobile or have good range are usually safe from Fizz.

Fiora, on the other hand, can simply burst down the nearest person, no matter how tanky, then use the incredible heal her team received to steamroll the fight. Until they make a QSS for tanks Fiora is going to be, in my opinion, the most unbalanced and uncounterable champion in the game.

Stars Shaper1 votes

1 - We were talking about stunning her while using her Q so she wouldn't be able to use her W. 2 - Her W lasts so little time that she needs really good reflexes (in which case she deserves to be a threat) or that the enemy is so stupid to unleash everything at her during her W (in which case the enemy deserves to be deleted). Fizz invulnerability lasts way longer and doesn't make him stay in place. 3 - Only a single stun/root is needed to make Fiora a dead character, if that single CC used on her makes her team able to delete yours well it's not FIora's fault. 4 - Quit your poor attempts to justify the power of a lame character trying to imply that others are nasty too.

PiVoRx1 votes

QSS her ult, watch her cry.

Melledoneus1 votes

QSS doesn't build into any tank items. If it did, your argument would make sense for more than AD champions.

Sire Hippington8 votes

and an actuall reliable escape... Zed is incredible save compared to other assasins, even if he screws up, he most likely gets out alife, kinda like lee. this is a big advantage that shouldn't be underestimated.

Spizzle90002 votes

Pssst, don't forge that he lacks the strengths other assassins have.

Akali: Mobile af, even more than Zed, and such sustain after level 6.

Ekko: Insane ultimate, three slows in one kit, versatility, pretty good laning (mana-dependent though), a stun (kinda hard to land)

Fizz: Troll pole, insane burst, easy to land ultimate with enormous damage, versatile, pretty slippery (less so than Zed though)

Katarina: Absolutely ridiculous AoE damage and burst

Khazix: He's really rather meh right now, but good burst if isolated

MasterYi: Ridiculous damage with good sustain if you build him correctly, very simple, hybrid damage, gotta go fast, can kill many people at once

Nidalee: Pretty mobile, fairly long range, versatile, tons of burst

Nocturne: I don't even think of him as an assassin anymore tbh

Rengar: Insane one-shot capability with no counterplay (but that's about all he brings to the table)

Shaco: Mobile, mind games, high early game damage and insane ganks/steals

Talon: Ridiculous burst with very little counterplay. I know most say to buy a pink, but seeing him doesn't help when you're already dead. He's mobile, fairly slippery, and can kill many people at once.

FrickendaChicken3 votes

None of these characters overlap, what was the point in saying this?

He doesn't have the same strengths of most of the other assassins because THEY don't have the same as each other, that's what makes them unique!

Spizzle90001 votes

My point in saying this is that Zed is not just some kind of unkillable god-like champion with zero counterplay and is completely and totally OP, as some suggest. He has his strengths, others have their own. I probably worded it oddly which made it easily misunderstood, but yeah. Like, some are under the impression that he's the perfect assassin: the most mobile, bursty, slippery, safe, and such. He's not. He's not bad in the other categories by any means, but he's not some unkillable Jesus Christ among the assassin class of LoL.

SnugglePuggle942 votes

He's much harder to kill than most of those. Kat goes in to burst your ADC? One disable or CC and her ult is gone. Akali escapes into her clowd? Just throw some spells inside, she gets hit by them, and watch for her to jump out once it goes on CD. Nidalee? Prone to high poke as her heal has a significant CD cost.

Mr Broken Wings8 votes

I never had problems laning against him, its obvious when I fucked up and deserve to die against him. YEAH PEOPLE YOU CAN DIE TO HIM, ITS OKAY TO DIE IF YOU SUCK AND GET SMASHED BY HIM.

No seriously, I dont understand that, he is completly fine, personally i even think the fact that I can simply counter him with 1 item is kinda hilarious and stupid, I never really felt like he was a problem or anything in that regard. Just because it looks flashy it doesnt need a nerf because it wins against you, thx stop making these threads gameplay and bronze. The only thing that will make him fine again is the mastery nerf ( armor pen) and its already planned so I really dont see whats the problem here. He really is one of the last champs that I would consider broken even when strong...maybe just me.

Miraweave4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JAGJiBst,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-03T06:25:09.240+0000)

I never had problems laning against him, its obvious when I fucked up and deserve to die against him. YEAH PEOPLE YOU CAN DIE TO HIM, ITS OKAY TO DIE IF YOU SUCK AND GET SMASHED BY HIM.

No seriously, I dont understand that, he is completly fine, personally i even think the fact that I can simply counter him with 1 item is kinda hilarious and stupid, I never really felt like he was a problem or anything in that regard. Just because it looks flashy it doesnt need a nerf because it wins against you, thx stop making these threads gameplay and bronze. The only thing that will make him fine again is the mastery nerf ( armor pen) and its already planned so I really dont see whats the problem here. He really is one of the last champs that I would consider broken even when strong...maybe just me.

I'm not saying he's broken because he kills you. I even specifically said that in the thread title.

I'm saying he's broken because of how obscenely safe he is and how strong his harass is.

Mr Broken Wings8 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying he's broken because he kills you. I even specifically said that in the thread title.

I'm saying he's broken because of how obscenely safe he is and how strong his harass is.

And if you gut his ability to win his lane you really think people would pick him even though he is countered by 1 item and his combo is the slowest of all assasins? I mean, if you do that then he simply is a worse talon with more savety.

iDarkWind8 votes

Ok he has a really great laning phase, but dude if you nerf it what he will be then? His all-in is healthy because you can counter him with QSS and Zhonya's. If you take some of his damage from basic abilities, his late game will be even worst! Some of you may hate Zed really a lot, but think in what you're suggesting. His harassment already got a nerf, remenber the "Unseen Q"? His harassment is much slower compared to the pre-nerf. I know, dude, I know! It's hard to face a good Zed, but even a good Zed has troubles late game. You can't just nerf him on that way.

EDIT: I saw some comments. Don't complain about you being forced to rush Zhonya's or QSS against Zed. At least you know that after that unless you're extremly behind, he won't focus so much on you and won't tower dive at all. Remenber there are some other Assasin's that have an overall better late game burst that has no counter at all compared to Zed.

PokladnicaZla4 votes

That still shouldn't be a reason to be as he is in his current state..

I for one hope RIOT reworks the whole assassin class before immobile mages just so every assassin has his identity in the game and that way mages will have it easier in every machup.

Spizzle90001 votes

Well, you're one of the only ones. Each assassin has their own identity in the game. Why the hell should mages be given a big edge against assassins? Assassins exist to get rid of the enemy squishies. You're mad, son.

EDIT: Ever heard of Lissandra and Kayle and Cho'Gath and Malzahar and Vladimir? Mages that have an easy time against most assassins. Also, they have an item that can almost entirely cancel out an assassin's burst, while assassins don't.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Bursting someone in 0,5 sec ain healthy son.

Every assassin has their own identity? Even Khazix ?

Spizzle90001 votes

Only a few champions have that ability, and generally require you to be extremely fed or extremely good (expect perhaps Rengar, but he's still pretty feast or famine. I think his ult should have a global sound upon activation).

Kha'Zix has his own identity; he evolves. None of the other assassins get to do that.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Atleast Rengar can't tp out through a shadow after bursting you.

Spizzle90001 votes

So? He also has almost instant burst, defense increases, and a bit more CC and stealth than Zed. They're different champions. Don't compare Zed and Rengar in that way because it doesn't make sense.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

True that,but both are annoying to face and need to be further looked at.

Spizzle90001 votes

Meh. Personally I think Zed has far more counterplay than Rengar. You can QSS Zed's ultimate or Zhonya's it. But, Rengo doesn't really have an escape. He trades burst for mobility.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

The problem with QSS is that it gives AP and the active(which is awesome),but aside from that u waste alot of gold which in the end doesn't do much.

Spizzle90001 votes

Yes, it does give MR which is borderline useless against Zed, but if you spook Zed out and force him to switch with his ult shadow before finishing you, you can QSS his Death Mark so it doesn't finish you off, and it's pretty easy to tell if it'll kill you based upon the spinning shuriken above your head.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Defensively you're still completly in a bad spot against him.He can still poke with not much attention to his resource bar,maybe the execute is gone,but he still can close the gap with his R.

Spizzle90001 votes

Fair enough. But, trust me, learning to play Zed will really help playing against another Zed.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Most mages aren't as squishy as ADCs, and should be able to stand up to the assassins, not get insta deleted. Zed is too strong right now.

He's not mad. He's speaking the truth.

Kayle? Pffftt. She's better top lane against the slower tanks and fighters. The most she can do in mid lane is ult herself to not die, as it's hard to all in on an assassin with her. Liss is a mana hungry mage. Cho'Gath on the other hand can man handle Zed and others, but he also has weaknesses. I don't play Vlad rarely at all so I wouldn't know.

Spizzle90001 votes

Then why would an assassin be played mid? Hell, may as well just start going Zed/Rengar bot lane. Zed's a tad strong, but there's more than him being simply overbuffed (although he was a bit). A lot of immobile ADCs are popular right now, as are some immobile mages in mid.

I'd say that he's not speaking the truth. If assassins are reworked so they're useless against mages, then where can they be played? Not top lane. Too tanky. Not bot lane. Too much range and duo lanes. And I for one would be super pissed if Zed were shoved into the jungle. Plus, he has no hard CC which would make jungling a real pain in the ass for him.

Kayle has consistent ranged poke and is beefier than other mids. She can do a good bit during the time she's invulnerable. Lissandra may be mana-hungry, but I've played Zed into Lissandra and Lissandra into Zed on many occasions. Fairly easy for Lissandra.

Cho'Gath would destroy Zed, and Vladimir generally does as well.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

I never said reworking them so that they are useless against mages. Just nerfing the OP ones. Mages need to be able to stand up to them, as in be able to stick out a crazy combo and not instantly die. ADC's instantly die. Mages should not.

I have played Kayle a lot and have better success top lane. She has high mana costs, and most people now have figured to stay out of her extended E range, and her Q range is also mid tier. Zed has a better early game than her.

Dominick Destine3 votes

{quoted}

Ok he has a really great laning phase, but dude if you nerf it what he will be then?

Talon ?

Zed has an incredibly safe lane, is MANALESS and has multiple escape mechanisms built into his kit. You don't need to be Diamond to realize that that's not balanced.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Yea but if he has successfully pushed you under turret, he was way more gold than you. You also lost a good bit of farm due to his poke. And due to the increase in cost of AP items and nerfs to their stats, while he gets to divulge in the glorious buffed AD items, you won't have Zhonya's by the time he can all in you. Therefore, you die.

The Deckowner4 votes

the thing with zed is all the option he has, he dont need to all in u, 1500range manaless harass in and outside laning phrase is very unhealthy for an assasin. while still have the ann in protential and one button get out of jail free card.

Spizzle90001 votes

Actually, once mid game is drawing to an end, he DOES need to all in you. He's an early/mid game champion. He's SUPPOSED to have the ability to harass in lane. Why don't people understand that?. . . Out of lane, yeah, he has that. But you don't harass as much outside of lane. One button get out of jail free card? Yeah, so does Talon. So does LeBlanc. So does Kha'Zix. So do a lot of people.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

That idea with the multiple Q's is certainly one way.

Another way would be to just make his passive not work on lane minions anymore.

Bisaknosp2 votes

he can dish out his burst way to fast where is this healthy?even if you have zhonyas/qss he still kills you with an instant w e q combo

Count Zubat2 votes

While I agree that it is annoying to lane against him, IMO it's not harass that makes him too strong, you can avoid his shurikens rather easily. I think the bigger problem is how fast he can farm and push. He can quickly shove lane so you have harder time farming under turret and while you try to unpush it, he can freely roam. Maybe reducing damage his Q deals to minions would be a good solution.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

why do his skill shot the q. go through minions. can't we make it like most other skill shots in the game. hits one target. and that is really it.

Spizzle90001 votes

You are aware that a large amount of skillshots do go through minions? Not to mention that while Zed's Q can go through minions, the damage is reduced enormously.

HolyCrapItsMe2 votes

How about making it so it doesnt hit minions at all, that way he loses his easy pushing and farming.

Spizzle90001 votes

I see what you're trying to get it, but you do realize that Zed is supposed to have an easy time farming and pushing waves, right? He's an early/mid game champion. You'd have to seriously up the damage on his abilities to compensate for that nerf.

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