Assassins as a whole are toxic and unfun to play against.

InSingedWeTrust·Mar 16, 2015·13 votes·3,008 views

There, I said it. Every type of QQ on the forums are centered around assassins. Except for the people who were saying tanks are too weak last week now saying they're too strong.

Zed is "manaless" has excellent wave clearing and a free escape even if he can't kill you. LeBlanc has a disgusting amount of burst, mobility, and utility all wrapped into one. Katarina roams bot for free kills every 60 seconds, even if she gets countered in lane. Fizz went from being the cancer of mid lane to now being the cancer of top lane. Nidalee has been OP no matter the meta. She manages a way to become broken.

I could go on but.. you get the picture.

40 Comments

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20158 votes

So everyone can either:

stop playing or
stop bitching or
learn to play around assassins like those of us with a brain.

Example, don't like Zed walking on you? counter pick or item 3140 item 3157 Don't like Leblanc ? Katarina Yasuo Malzahar Still don't like them or are incompetent on counterpicks/building? Learn to save one form of hard CC.

Very Hard EngageMar 16, 20156 votes

{quoted}

So everyone can either:

stop playing or

stop bitching or

learn to play around assassins like those of us with a brain.

Example, don't like walking on you? counter pick or Don't like ? Still don't like them or are incompetent on counterpicks/building? Learn to save one form of hard CC.

because zhonyas comes into play at 2mins~15mins into the game, brilliant.

assassins are hardcountered by tanks, assassins hard counter immobile squishy champs. immobile champs DEPEND on landing their SKILL SHOT cc, to stand a chance against an assassin. as if that isn't incredibly hard against your point and click kit.

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20155 votes

Because Zed has 100-0 power at 2mins-15mins in the game right?

Wrong.

Very Hard EngageMar 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Because Zed has 100-0 power at 2mins-15mins in the game right?

Wrong.

no, he just has a 6sec CD which does 155(75+base AD assuming 80 with a longsword + 3health pot start)damage at rank 1 to the first target it hits + 60% to all subsequent targets which can be spammed in lane repeatedly.

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20153 votes

which can be dodged, and has a cast animation which leaves him vulnerable for nearly half a second.

Contrary to what you seem to think, his damage is lowered drastically by a item 1029 /5 start building into item 3191 > item 3157

Dangerous ManMar 16, 20152 votes

WOAH NEARLY HALF A SECOND! THAT NEEDS A NERF! THAT IS SO MUCH TIME TO MOVE AWAY FROM A ZED! I CAN NEARLY GO TO SPAWN IN ALL THAT TIME!

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20152 votes

WOW it's a skillshot.

Stay in bronze.

Leti the YetiMar 16, 20151 votes

CUZ DODGING IS EASY SHIT, NO ONE SHOULD EVER GET HIT BY SKILL SHOTS

Ahri Amumu Anivia Ashe Bard Blitzcrank Braum Caitlyn Chogath Cassiopeia Corki Diana DrMundo Draven Elise Ezreal Fizz Gnar Gragas Graves JarvanIV Jayce Jinx Kalista Kennen Leblanc LeeSin KogMaw Karma Leona Lissandra Lulu Lux Morgana Nami Nautilus Nidalee im getting pretty tired

but seriously as you dodge better, they start to aim better while dodging isnt totally impossible, it's also not very compelling and of the above, but not limited cuz the list isnt complete... some champs depende solely on landing a skill shot, and they are very strong picks had dodging actually be that simple, they wouldnt be nearly as strong as they are

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20152 votes

You won't dodge every single one, no.

You will dodge a majority of them if you have a brain for mechanics, simply because mid laners are either a: mobile enough to do so, or b: have ridiculously superior range to poke with, that also accompanies better waveclear.

His Q range is 900 vs Lux/Xerath/TF being nearly 1.5k units and all of them have a stun/snare mechanic. (this range is only extended to match by his W living shadow on a CD of 18 seconds base, and is never maxed anything but last)

From his perspective, no amount of time allows you to move away from a skillshot. From someone with a brain, seeing the cast animation tells you to get moving.

Dangerous ManMar 16, 20154 votes

I agree with this, but he still has infinite poke and sustain. While other people have this blue bar that we like to call MANA

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20151 votes

By the time that it matters, your jungler is willing to give you second blue buff.

Try again.

Leti the YetiMar 16, 20152 votes

The holocaust wasnt a problem cuz selective jews with a brain learned to live around it

Now I find that assassins being unfun to play against and playing around them are 2 irrelevant things being able to play around it does not make it any less unfun to play against them

KapppaccinoMar 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So everyone can either:

stop playing or

stop bitching or

learn to play around assassins like those of us with a brain.

Example, don't like walking on you? counter pick or Don't like ? Still don't like them or are incompetent on counterpicks/building? Learn to save one form of hard CC.

People swear there's no such thing as counters. Btw building damage against them when they are ahead, instead of resistances makes you lose harder. The more you know

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20152 votes

People don't seem to understand the basic concept of building defensively and offensively at the same time.

For example, in ranked lately I've been consistently hard countered by Lissandra (I'm a Plat I Kat main, Season 4 Diamond - where people aren't mechanically retarded but lack commitment to objectives or decision making for the most part (also my biggest problem)

How do I fix a hard counter lane? I don't, but I do delay her advantage by rushing a item 3001 and not trading when I know her W is up and avoiding her AoE poke as best I can then take advantage of the early MR reduction on that + boots and roam to bot lane as early as possible.

Likewise vs a Zed, I'm going to start item 1029 /5 because I'm not a complete idiot and understand that having an early Armguard followed by a completed Zhonya's before he's able to 100-0 me is the best way to play into a Zed lane.

For those with no competence, they pick Malzahar into assassins. Properly played, Malzahar shits on every single assassin style champ we currently have.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 16, 20153 votes

Being FORCED to buy certain items JUST to NOT DIE against a single champ is not balance at all.
CC counters every one equally, so bringing up CC to counter assassins makes you look retarded.

And based on your examples there is nothing that counters assassins, expect building certain items. 1 of which offers no stats helpful against that champion meaning he will kill you with out his Ult, and the other so expensive he will have killed you 2+ times before you get it.

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20151 votes

Not sure if you're aware, but item 3140 builds into item 3139 for the squishy AD carries and item 3157 is commonplace to see on every AP champ in the game.

Zed isn't going to be trying to melt a tank, so they need not worry about it.

Please tell me how anyone with a brain is unable to CS enough to get a Zhonya's within the first 10 minutes of the game when playing against a Zed (a cumulative 3000 gold after starting cloth/5)

Romans VI XXIIIMar 17, 20151 votes

how many ADCs do you know that go mid lane? so rushing a into an . Some ADCs might get it as there 3 or 4th item MAYYYYYBE. As for any AP mid both those entire items are 100% worthless.
by 10 mins in zed has ulted you how many times? probably 3-4 times. And probably killed you most of those times. So he is snowballing, and you are building an item that only protects you from him, has a longer CD than his ult, and has useless armor stats do to him rushing
Seems you still have no counter play for any of the other assassins either. Mostly cause there is VERY LITTLE counter play for any of them.

MrPerson10Mar 17, 20151 votes

1 - How many zeds/assassins do you know that don't roam or team fight? None? okay, point invalid. item 3157 is a rush to negate his early damage and ult damage.

2 - by 10 minutes, you haven't even gotten to a point that he can ult you twice. If he's killed you twice by then, you're retarded and need to stop playing mid-lane as that means both of his ults killed you. His ults should never kill you unless you've allowed free harass. His rush of Brutalizer is great and all, and costs slightly more than seekers - however you're looking at 45 armor early on (you can bet that's a fair amount) with only a 10% penetration, which means 41.5 of that bonus armor still remains in effect. Care to explain to me how 120/100/80 seconds on a champ that doesn't build a ton of early CDR is in any way shape or form a shorter CD than item 3157 's 90 seconds? By lvl 11 when his ult is going to be on a shorter CD, you've already completed a long time ago and should be working your 3rd item (zhonyas/boots being 1-2)

Then again, maybe you struggled in grade 3 math.

It's not as if he can ult your face and win automatically at lvl 6. He has to harass, hit a full combo off on you, maybe even pop ignite early. Full build, yes, he can ult your face if you have no clue how to play around him. However you seem to think that Zed takes no skill and is automatic freelo.

3 - There is counterplay to every champion in the game. Is it easy to counterplay an assassin? No. to be a truly effective assassin, you need knee-jerk reflexes and need to be able to exploit that. To counter that, you need good reflexes - but not perfect. Assassins all share one common trait: extreme predictability.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 17, 20151 votes

Okay go ahead, have your ADC rush into , and watch them get raped by the opponents ADC. As i said before MAYBE it is a 3rd or 4th item. but then again maybe you cant read.
Zed has more harass than ANY OTHER CHAMPION IN THE GAME. Since you think I struggled in 3rd grade math lets do some math for you.

Zed: Regens Energy at 10 a second, Q cost 70 EP, and 6 sec CD at lvl 1

70/10 = 7

Ever 7 seconds zed can chuck a LONG RANGE spell at you. and for the sack of the math (mostly you) lets say it does 1 damage.

INSERT AP MAGE HERE: Mana regen? less than 3 a second in most causes. spell cost? roughly 60 on average.

60/3 = 20

Every 20 seconds the average AP mage can cast a spell, doing 1 damage.

So lets see here.

zed, 7 secs, deals 1 damage AP Mage, 20 secs, deals 1 damage.

Who is going to out harass who?

Just encase you cant figure it out, its Zed. Zed has the highest damaging, most spammable abilities in the game. Even more than other Energy or even recource-less champs. So he will EASILY whittle you down and push you out. cause all he needs to buy is either get some LS or a few health Pots, where as most other mids, you need both Mana pots and health pots just to not get pushed out.

And as a zed, who cares if i don't land half my shots, its basically free, ill wait 7 seconds and throw another one at you, I will eventually make it so i can all in you, ult or no ult, hourglass or no hourglass.

MrPerson10Mar 17, 20151 votes

I'm going to disregard you and believe you're absolutely retarded. Can't believe I have to explain basics of a game to you when you're a Season 4 gold.

First, rank 1 Zed Q costs 75 energy, going down to 55 at max rank and is on a 6 second CD - you're already way off, shows how much you know about Zed.

Second, as an ADC you don't rush QSS but you can easily fit that in as your 3rd item active if he's fed, 4th if he's behind - again Zed has no 100-0 potential that early and if you can't use your map, you belong in Bronze.

Please tell me how Zed's combo > Fizz's lvl 3 all-in? How about Orianna? You don't beat either of these lanes often - they're heavily favored against Zed. Orianna pokes you down easily with blue (you can't really force her out of lane if she has any idea how to use her range to her advantage and she matches your waveclear and then some) Fizz all-ins you and has his Playful/Trickster if you decide to ult him. If it isn't up? He always has his Urchin Strike to either escape you or put you right into his turret range and force you to R back out.

Now, let's move on to the less easy stuff.

Skillshots are dodgeable, Zed has zero utility outside of his shadow slow. Again, his Q is obvious and easily dodged without his shadow being cast and his early waveclear before backing/pre-6? Shitty. You want to know how a Zed harasses? W/Q, E when close W/E/Q if enemy in range to be hit by shadow's E.

You know how much energy that costs cumulatively at lvl 3? 75 + 40 + 50 = a whopping 165 energy with everything on a 6/18/4 second CD.

Let me help you wrap your head around it. To stick to a target at all and get any energy refund, his shadow E has to hit the enemy for the slow and BOTH of either his Q/E have to hit for the refund. Do you even understand how easy it is to avoid that in the early game? One combo puts him at a remaining 35 energy - leaving him utterly useless until it regens and open to ranged harass for a whopping 18 seconds. That pattern continues that he's open for harassment for 18 entire seconds after his shadow disappears right up to lvl 14.

If you can't use item 3157 effectively against Zed, you're probably someone with Down's considering THERE'S A GIANT FUCKING X PUT ON YOU. Try playing against him in Season 3, then tell me how hard it was.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 17, 20151 votes

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS, AS YOU SEEM TO ALWAYS READ NONE OF IT!

First, rank 1 Zed Q costs 75 energy

OMFG 7.5 seconds instead of 7 seconds OMFG sooooo game game changing LMFAO. you obviously missed the entire point.

Please tell me how Zed's combo > Fizz's lvl 3 all-in? How about Orianna? You don't beat either of these lanes often

again, I spam Q every 7 seconds and disengage if they try and engage and out sustain them it is actually very easy LMFAO.

Skillshots are dodgeable, Zed has zero utility outside of his shadow slow. Again, his Q is obvious and easily dodged without his shadow being cast

and yet again u fail to read, cause i said I DONT CARE if I land half of them cause it has such a low cool down and cost next to nothing. I can literally spam them ALL DAY LONG, fizz and ori cant can they? No not with out blue or maybe chalice, which they wont have till second blue some times later, THEN even when thy can spam shit, I can still spam just as much as them LOLZ!!!!!

his early waveclear before backing/pre-6? Shitty.

as is just about every other mid laner pre 6, the only difference is it cost me NOTHING to clear the wave and shove, where as the opponent has to conserve mana, AND my AAs actaully do damage :D. SO your point is? LOLZ

One combo puts him at a remaining 35 energy - leaving him utterly useless until it regens and open to ranged harass for a whopping 18 seconds. That pattern continues that he's open for harassment for 18 entire seconds after his shadow disappears right up to lvl 14.

OMG i spend 165 Energy, Ill have it all back in 16.5 seconds, and Ill be able to cast Q in 6 seconds. So if they TRY, yes try, to harass me i simple WALK AWAY LOLZ, and continue to SPAM Q to farm if i need to. You act as if SHIT i cast all my spells, NOW I HAVE TO SIT HERE AND DO NOTHING AND LET THEM HIT MY UNTIL ALL OF MY ABILITIES ARE OFF COOL DOWN. CMON ARE YOU REALLY SERIOUS?

And at what point did i say to cast his intire combo? I NEVER SAID THAT LOL, thats the funny part. ANY zed can sit back and spam Q for days, AND EVEN THE WORST PLAYER WILL LAND SOME. This will slowly kill your opponent while they go OOM trying to out damage you 3 HP pots at the start of the game + more once u go back the first time.

I'm a Katarina main, I have no quarrels with Zed despite that I'm beaten my Zeds consistently

YOU HAVE EVEN ADMITTED TO ZED BEING ONE OF THE ONLY PEOPLE YOU HAVE TROUBLE AGAINST! WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THAT IS? Blaming it on rank or that they main him is RETARDED, as you main KAT and you are the same rank. SO YOU SHOULD BE ON EVEN PLAYING FIELD!!!!!

MrPerson10Mar 17, 20151 votes

It's pretty clear you've never played midlane, or even top lane against a Zed at all.

Orianna harass > yours. She can poke you down from a longer range without issue. She also has a shield to shield your terrible attempts at Qing her in the case she doesn't move.

Fizz, again, playful/trickster. his lvl 3 > yours by miles, has more mobility than you, a natural ignite, and an invulnerable state. Since you likely won't have W up the very second he goes for it unless you planned for the lvl 3 all in, you're going to take immensely more damage than he is.

On to the real part where you show your idiocy, right here:

YOU HAVE EVEN ADMITTED TO ZED BEING ONE OF THE ONLY PEOPLE YOU HAVE TROUBLE AGAINST! WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THAT IS? Blaming it on rank or that they main him is RETARDED, as you main KAT and you are the same rank. SO YOU SHOULD BE ON EVEN PLAYING FIELD!!!!!

No, no, no. I admitted he's one of my hardest matches because: because "I lack the knee-jerk reactions required to out-knee-jerk a high platinum/low diamond Zed main."

You need to learn how to read. It does matter, as someone who's mained Katarina from Bronze 3 up to low Diamond in Season 4 and is currently sitting in P1 - someone who's done the same on Zed is going to shit on me for a few reasons.

A) his champion REQUIRES great reflexes. B) his waveclear is far superior to Katarina's, forcing me to choose between harass and waveclear - either I take damage on tower or I take damage for waveclearing. C) his mobility simply outdoes Kat's. Yes, I have a blink. So does he. I can shunpo 1 out of 2 times and be guaranteed to be on him. The second however, he can simply hop shadows and unload a combo.

That is what makes it a hard lane. Not his meaningless harassment, not his ulti, not his ability to spam Q, but his ability to out-react a Katarina based solely on his kit.

Can I shit on a lesser Zed? Of course. But someone who's mained Zed up to the same point as I have will guaranteed have better reaction time and avoid most of my combos. It ends up being a push/pull lane, and it's all push from Zed's waveclear.

Dangerous ManMar 16, 20151 votes

I play normals because I hate Draft and Ranked for the pick order, so I never counter pick. They never walk on me either because I don't play mid. But I can kill them all and they all are easy and the only person that REALLY counters me is Garen (Sejuani main) and they are toxic though. 99% of Zed players are cocky and annoying. Even you are toxic and I bet you main Zed or Leblanc.

MrPerson10Mar 16, 20152 votes

I'm a Katarina main, I have no quarrels with Zed despite that I'm beaten my Zeds consistently because I lack the knee-jerk reactions required to out-knee-jerk a high platinum/low diamond Zed main.

His kit is healthy, yet provides a decent bit of counterplay.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 17, 20151 votes

u are getting raped by zeds cause he can easily out harass any other champ mid, and HE decides when to dual, never the opponent. Due to his ability to EASILY go in or out as he pleases.

MrPerson10Mar 17, 20151 votes

Maybe you're retarded.

He can't out-harass anyone, if you play properly then you're trading damage. If he wins the trade by a large margin or you allow free harass, he's going to shit on you. I simply don't do that. If he wants to Q, I'll almost always be able to e/q/w onto him. Dominates early trades by quite a large margin as you're doing three things here: putting his W on CD as his harass early is meaningless without that shadow, forcing him to miss both Qs. You're taking reduced damage from his E which is likely to hit you, and if he wants to avoid damage he's going to have to shadow hop his W - putting it on a massive CD.

Sir YamazukiMar 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So everyone can either:

stop playing or

stop bitching or

learn to play around assassins like those of us with a brain.

Example, don't like walking on you? counter pick or Don't like ? Still don't like them or are incompetent on counterpicks/building? Learn to save one form of hard CC.

I like how this topic is about assassins being unfun, and your response to stopping an assassin is play another assassin, further showing this is an issue, or playing Malz which.... doesn't counter assassins, he wins against just about all champions 1v1, but this isn't a 1v1 game and teams will have more than 1 threat on a team. If you focus on stopping an assassin entirely it allows their carry to reign free anyways.

MrPerson10Mar 17, 20152 votes

Point is there are plenty of options.

Malzahar does well against assassins but takes a lot more skill to use and a more well-rounded team comp rather than "click to win"

Chaotic ReksMar 16, 20156 votes

QQ thread detected. initializing downvote procedure

Dangerous ManMar 16, 20153 votes

All of the OP champions don't have mana...Now how could Riot nerf them......

JustMyBassCannonMar 16, 20152 votes

"People complain a lot about Assassins, the whole archetype must be bad for the game."

Because the people complaining are totally the top-tier players who understand how counter-play works, not the scrubs that still can't figure out what a "team composition" is.

WolfChasesMar 16, 20152 votes

Ok...if you hate assassins, and you think they are toxic and unfair for this game, can you create an assassin that's perfectly healthy but viable in the same time?

Let me tell you what an assassin should be.

Assassin is someone who should be able to assassinate you quickly. As you can se he SHOULD be able to ASSASSINATE/KILL you.
Assassin should be able to escape after he finished his job, and than he should wait untill the next perfect moment.

According to my statements, Zed seems like healthy assassin?

IcyPepperMar 16, 20152 votes

Maybe Zed's issue is the waveclear?

If he had a rougher time during the laning phase, it would even the odds. He still could assassinate caught out targets, however.

Leti the YetiMar 16, 20151 votes

the very idea that some guy will jump in to kill someone and just leave is pretty unfun

MartyrofsandMar 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Ok...if you hate assassins, and you think they are toxic and unfair for this game, can you create an assassin that's perfectly healthy but viable in the same time?

Let me tell you what an assassin should be.

Assassin is someone who should be able to assassinate you quickly. As you can se he SHOULD be able to ASSASSINATE/KILL you.

Assassin should be able to escape after he finished his job, and than he should wait untill the next perfect moment.

According to my statements, Zed seems like healthy assassin?

Except your statements are wrong. Assassins should be able to kill weak and vulnerable targets. A 3/0 ADC with IE/PD is not a weak target, however, it is routine to see that same 3/0 ADC die to a 0/2 Zed with BOTRK with simply 1 rotation of his kit and AA and BOTRK. That should never happen.

A balanced assassin would be more like Nova from HOTS. She doesn't do enough damage to out right 100-0 you but she can kill you from around 60-75% HP and then if she times her clone correctly she can absorb anything sent her way giving her time to restealth and potentially follow up. This creates gameplay where Nova can weaken a target, escape, and then return to finish the job and gives the enemy a chance to make the decision to either stay and risk dieing or to bail out.

So to recap an assassin can't 100-0 someone, will need to either pick a weak target or make multiple passes giving a target a chance to decide if they should risk staying in the area. Zed does none of this and is one of the farthest things from healthy for any assassin in any MOBA.

WolfChasesMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except your statements are wrong. Assassins should be able to kill weak and vulnerable targets. A 3/0 ADC with IE/PD is not a weak target, however, it is routine to see that same 3/0 ADC die to a 0/2 Zed with BOTRK with simply 1 rotation of his kit and AA and BOTRK. That should never happen.

A balanced assassin would be more like Nova from HOTS. She doesn't do enough damage to out right 100-0 you but she can kill you from around 60-75% HP and then if she times her clone correctly she can absorb anything sent her way giving her time to restealth and potentially follow up. This creates gameplay where Nova can weaken a target, escape, and then return to finish the job and gives the enemy a chance to make the decision to either stay and risk dieing or to bail out.

So to recap an assassin can't 100-0 someone, will need to either pick a weak target or make multiple passes giving a target a chance to decide if they should risk staying in the area. Zed does none of this and is one of the farthest things from healthy for any assassin in any MOBA.

Gavrilo Princip was just an ordinary man but he 100-0 Prince Franc Ferdinand :O U see? Assassin doesen't have to pick the weak target, he can 100-0 because he's an assassin. PERIOD. :D

MartyrofsandMar 18, 20151 votes

Except that assassination was first attempted during a parade, failed, and Prince Ferdinand decided instead of taking the hint and leaving he would stick around and visit hospitals to help those who got hurt by those who attempted to kill him...and then he got killed on the 2nd pass in what was frankly a mix of dumb luck that he happened to take the wrong street that would give his assassin another chance.

Really picked a wrong example to try and prove and point even if you wanted to be silly about it.

SwordArt0fflineMar 16, 20152 votes

Leave assasins be, people complain. Riot nerf assasins, people complain. Smh

LBX XenoniMar 16, 20152 votes

Assassins: Ones who can kill quickly and without a long or prolonged struggle. Often not seen in time to put up a resistance. Murderers: One who will beat the hell out of you and you have time to see it coming and have the effort to put up resistance.

But that's just how I see it. Then again, Teemo was given 'assassin' credit too and you die unexpectedly so I guess it can hold on him too, as most of the time his kills come up, unexpectedly.

A lot of tanks however, might not see the problem.