Should Super Minions be worth more?

ForFoxSakes·Dec 30, 2016·65 votes·2,726 views

Right now 2 of them can solo a tower and forces a champion to go deal with them. Theyre super tanky even against champions, but their gold and exp is basically the same as a cannon minion.

Cannon minion = 92 exp, 45.5g base that increases over time with no armor or MR Super minion = 97 exp, 40g base, double the HP of cannons, buffs other minions, significant armor and does 5x the damage of cannons

If a team takes inhibs and doesnt use that to their advantage, they should be punished by having supers power up the other team a bit more. Most support champs cant even deal with a super 1 on 1 and mages need several spell rotation to kill it.

Especially with how weak towers are now, supers need to be dealt with by champs but are worth so little when killed.

Gold should be bumped to 100g, comparable to a buff monster, and exp along the lines of 150-200

49 Comments

huanparkDec 30, 201623 votes

they should be worth more but if you think about it if a super minion was worth 100 it would only take 13 for a bf sword and thats not including the rest of the wave. and its kinda like a reward for the team getting the inhib.

ForFoxSakesDec 30, 20166 votes

It would take A LOT of waves of supers to add up to the BF sword, and late into the game there's lots of other gold sources. When shoved into your base, you often lose your jungle too which has way more exp and gold for the other team on top of baron, other towers and dragon

huanparkDec 30, 20161 votes

but its not including the extra gold from dragon, baron and the rest of the minions in the wave

ForFoxSakesDec 30, 20165 votes

The other team who killed the inhib gets the baron, dragon, jg monsters & such. Most times when you have an inhib down what do you do especially in average games? Sit in base to fend off those supers while the other team clears the map so the gold & exp advantage snowballs hard.

If the team that took the inhib doesnt do those things to get further ahead and see it like a "punishment for killing inhib" then you're clearly playing the game wrong

DanjengDec 30, 20163 votes

It takes one champion to hold off a lane of super minions. That leaves 4 to contest Dragon/Baron. If the winning team of 5 can take on Baron/Dragon, while simultaneously fending of a team of 4, they deserve to win.

ForFoxSakesDec 30, 20165 votes

Dragons are pretty weak other than elders. A lot of many people can 1-2 man one throughout the game or be killed under 5 seconds w the whole team there

2Charmnot2CharmDec 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

It would take A LOT of waves of supers to add up to the BF sword, and late into the game there's lots of other gold sources. When shoved into your base, you often lose your jungle too which has way more exp and gold for the other team on top of baron, other towers and dragon

There should be zero upsides of an inhib going down.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 31, 20162 votes

When the inhib goes down, you start a timer. Super minions are gonna let the enemy scale back into the game, so you need to do something. Baron, dragon, another inhibitor, or a good teamfight. If you aren't prepared to use the opportunity, don't destroy an inhibitor.

5000000000000000Dec 30, 20162 votes

It's also not easy to last hit a super minion.

AirKingNeoDec 30, 20164 votes

Then nerf Super minions a bit while raising the gold they give to say 60-70. Balances out the problem.

Then buff towers and readjust the minions from there.

DanjengDec 30, 201616 votes

A problem would be that it would lead to a stalemate. Why should a losing team get rewarded for being out-pushed with gold? The team which worked for the early game advantage would lose it.

The meta would be full of late game hypercarries with wave clear (i.e Ryze). This guy could just spend all his time clearing wave after wave. and eventually outscalling the enemy team, with his extra gold and exp. I'd have to disagree with your suggestion.

ForFoxSakesDec 30, 20165 votes

With that logic lets give first blood 1000 gold and first tower 1500g because why shouldnt you get rewarded for winning right? Make kills worth 850g because why should a losing champ in lane have a chance?

rtbf76109271Dec 30, 201610 votes

no, that's a terrible argument. Just jumping to some random extreme because you have no valid points... alright

By winning small battles like first blood and first tower, you deserve an advantage. The size of that advantage is really tough to hit. An advantage has to mean something or else the early game is pointless. An advantage can't be too big or else the game is decided at 8:00 and snowballs out of control with no chance of a comeback.

As for super minions, inhibitors are the mechanic for a game to actually end. They are very purposely supposed to give the largest advantage possible in the game, which is that it draws champions away so you win a 5v4 or 5v3 or get a free baron.

**You are not supposed to get a significant amount of gold and exp to come back into the game with from losing inhibitors, you are supposed to lose. **

If you wanted the game to be less snowbally, towers could be buffed or first blood tower gold could be nerfed. But super minions are DESIGNED to end the game.

AninLegions777Jan 1, 20171 votes

Super minions are designed to auto-push a lane, not end the game. If they were designed to end a game, then Banner of Command would work on them. They give the enemy time to get more gold/objectives and if you think the gold gotten from super minions, by ONE champion if I might add, would help the team that lost the inhib to come back, then you are wrong.

rtbf76109271Jan 1, 20171 votes

currently ya the gold and exp the champion gets is low compared to the effort it takes to kill them. Which is good, is has to be that way as they ARE the way the game ends. Getting more gold and objectives is in essence ending the game. Or at least pushing it that way.

This guy is suggesting that we double super minion gold and exp, which I am arguing is a bad idea because as you said, the gold acquired from killing supers is NOT supposed to help someone get back into the game.

AninLegions777Jan 4, 20171 votes

Then their dmg has to be toned down. Remember there are 3 inhibs in a game. If one goes down, that shouldn't be the end of it. What Riot should do is cut Super minion stats in half and increase the stats with every inhib destroyed after the first. That way, it's like 1/2>3/4>1.

DanjengDec 30, 20163 votes

You damn well know that's not what I'm suggesting. You're using very extreme examples, and claiming them to be mine. Which they are not.

My point: If a team has pushed up to an inhibitor, Super Minions should be able to close out the game, not stall out the game even further, by giving the losing team bonus exp and gold.

What you are saying my point is: I just love snowballing and unfun lanes. Let's make the game determinable by 10 minutes, and the other 10 minutes to be a total stomp hurr durr.

It seems you are just trying to appeal to emotions, just like the fuck yasuo circlejerk.

FlitcheeDec 31, 20161 votes

But real though, Fuck yasuo.

HollowMimicDec 31, 20162 votes

Still, why should a team that is successfully defending their base, not be rewarded for it?

It doesn't have to be as much as the OP says but (like a guy above you commented) 15 more gold will feel enough for the hassle and the outscaling will be less likely to happen (unless ofc if the team does not exploit the advantage of a fallen inhib).

PartholonianDec 31, 20161 votes

They are rewarded by having their nexus not explode, so they can continue trying to earn a comeback.

If they keep that up long enough, they are rewarded by having the inhibitor respawn and relieve the pressure.

SNSD SunnnyDec 30, 201611 votes

that would lead to a decision to not take inhibitors unless ready to end the game fairly soon

there should be no reason to ever not take an objective

ForFoxSakesDec 30, 20163 votes

It's not going to feed the enemy that hard back into the game. Supers pressure lets you take other lanes, baron or dragon which still helps the team win

RocketRelmDec 31, 20161 votes

To be fair, supers already give the enemy slightly more gold as-is anyway. They come once a wave, whereas cannons come once every 2 waves at minutes 20-35. This is hardly a consideration for people presently.

Pierce The VealDec 31, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=SNSD Sunnny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J3HFZENx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-30T18:37:46.853+0000)

that would lead to a decision to not take inhibitors unless ready to end the game fairly soon

there should be no reason to ever not take an objective

Why not? That sounds like an interesting decision to have to make.

Automated RivenDec 31, 20161 votes

Because it would essentually remove quick games because unless you can take down all 3 inhibs at 20 minutes it would not be worth it in the long run because you are giving the enemy team 2000 free gold by taking it. And usually a inhib at 20 minutes doesnt result in a won game before it comes up. 2000 gold is more the baron (which is only 1500) which actually punishes the winning team harder then they can typically make up at 20 minutes. Specifically considering that if baron is still up at the time the inhib goes down its even worse because baron isnt safe to try to take unless you are super far ahead at 20 minutes. Even in a 4v5.

FlitcheeDec 31, 20161 votes

you get 3 inhibs? good fuckin luck clearing all your waves, with how solo q is, some fuckboi is gonna be raging like a god damn child.

Pierce The VealJan 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J3HFZENx,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2016-12-31T04:18:06.084+0000)

Because it would essentually remove quick games because unless you can take down all 3 inhibs at 20 minutes it would not be worth it in the long run because you are giving the enemy team 2000 free gold by taking it. And usually a inhib at 20 minutes doesnt result in a won game before it comes up. 2000 gold is more the baron (which is only 1500) which actually punishes the winning team harder then they can typically make up at 20 minutes. Specifically considering that if baron is still up at the time the inhib goes down its even worse because baron isnt safe to try to take unless you are super far ahead at 20 minutes. Even in a 4v5.

I still think there should be a such thing as a bad decision. In chess, taking the enemy queen can cost you the game.

Automated RivenJan 2, 20171 votes

rarely is that the case. That would be akin to the decision to take an inhib while your whole team is dead and the enemy is 5 man pushing mid and you are a super fed late game carry that could likely kill enough of them to save the game.

Pierce The VealJan 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J3HFZENx,comment-id=00000002000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-02T00:41:44.081+0000)

rarely is that the case. That would be akin to the decision to take an inhib while your whole team is dead and the enemy is 5 man pushing mid and you are a super fed late game carry that could likely kill enough of them to save the game.

In real life you can't just take advantage of every opening you get. The potential tactics get more interesting when there are disadvantages to your actions (besides missing out when you die, that's a punishment through lack of reward,not an outright punishment for an action).

Automated RivenJan 5, 20171 votes

Exactly .. in this case it would be an outright punishment to only take one unless baron is up and the enemy jungler is down because there isnt enough gold on the map to offset the huge influx of gold that would march right into the enemy base free of charge. Taking the inhib would be a bad decision unless you were already ending the game by taking all three and the nexus. or rushing down mid with 60 second death timers and you won anyhow.

Earl EulrichDec 31, 20161 votes

you know, i´ve rarly had a game when i didn´t win within 10min from taking an inhib down - just learn how to close out games.

PhDs NutsDec 30, 20165 votes

Super minions should buff other minions, but champions should buff super minions to their current power. Make super minions less destructive on their own.

General Esdeath Dec 31, 20165 votes

To be fair, they're supposed to punish the enemy team.

SalronDec 31, 20162 votes

Don't make supers give more, make them weaker overall

Automated RivenDec 31, 20161 votes

This is probably better overall. Otherwise you end up screwing yourself by donating a ton of gold to the enemy adc if you take an inhib before you can end the game.

SpecterVonBarenDec 31, 20162 votes

While I disagree with your numbers (That's way too much gold) they should certainly not give LESS gold than normal cannon minions. Just having them give 15 more gold is enough to make it feel like you're getting more for taking them down. If anything though, they should give more EXP so that if the team that took the inhib doesn't capitalize on it then their enemy team can at least make a comeback off of that mistake by being able to catch up in levels.

Earl EulrichDec 31, 20162 votes

and it would leave more leeway to come back against a team that cannot close out a game when already killed an inhib, i´d like that.

ModAcademy KaynDec 30, 20161 votes

Why should a winning team be punished for taking objectives?

AVL PrinceDec 31, 20161 votes

It's more a matter of why a losing team shouldn't be ruthlessly pounded for making one mistep in a teamfight.

This game would be a lot more boring if one teamfight decided the game, every game. It's all a balance.

KVbqbFsC8eDec 31, 20161 votes

No, teams should not be punished for taking inhibs.

Proxy345Dec 31, 20161 votes

Only way to deal with those super minions is with HP% damage so yes lol

CowseedDec 31, 20161 votes

The bain of my matches is when I'm playing an ad champ that isn't the adc and the team leaves me to deal with the super minions.

Seriously people. If the thing could move any faster it could probably solo me.

CowseedDec 31, 20161 votes

But what I'm saying is let your mages handle them.

EpicanianDec 31, 20161 votes

I don't think that's a good idea. Getting an inhib, while it is still useful, would essentially be giving your opponents bonus gold as long as they clear the waves

ADC5LUTDec 31, 20161 votes

For how strong supers are they need to be toned down or give a little extra. Not to mention it would nerf split pushing since the goal of split pushing is often the inhib to make up for the lack of team presence. So I'd a team can be rewarded for fighting a 4v5 with a split pusher went can't the opposing team be rewarded a bit for doing the same?

TotalJerkDec 31, 20161 votes

No. Getting super minions spawned on you is a punishment.

MatakeDec 31, 20161 votes

imo super minions should gain bloodlust and be worth no gold. but whatever.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 1, 20171 votes

This is great way to add comeback mechanics. I had NO IDEA they were worth so little. Looks really wrong to me, tbh.

ValyrianBladeJan 17, 20171 votes

No way - it's bad enough how the tower changes make it easier for a team to come back.

A team should never see a disadvantage from taking a NECESSARY objective to win the game. You must have an inhibitor down to end.

Let's rephrase in to a situation where your team has middle inhibitor after a won fight while behind. Enemy team just pushes up mid - more slowly since you have supers but nonetheless they push. Each team occasionally sends one person to manage side waves, but ultimately the team that's ahead in gold will dictate where play is, even if down an inhibitor. Even if down Baron for that matter. Everyone assumes if you have Baron /inhibitor you get control - this isn't true it's just often the case because a team typically doesn't get these unless ahead.

So now a behind team that made a good play /capitalized on an enemies error and is trying to come back gets put further behind from the enemy team farming supers. Sounds really fair.

It's not even that hard to deal with supers, ESPECIALLY if Baron isn't available. I've won multiple games down 3 inhibs - that's 6 times as many super minions crashing the base as a single inhibitor. If the enemy team can't tower dive you with the aid of supers it doesn't matter (also they need someone that can threaten the adc if he gets in range to damage your towers - maybe it's mostly bad play on part of the adc).