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Should adc's be the center of the game?

Knight SoIaire ··4 votes·636 views

> Marksman is the mandatory role; you will have one in every game. You might not have a fighter or a tank or an assassin or a mage or a support but you will always have an ADC. You could have a mage top or a fighter top or a tank top, or a mage mid or an assassin mid, or a fighter jungle or a tank jungle, or a tank support or a...support support. But the place in the bot lane that farms and the 'support' protects? Has always been an ADC since the meta was established, and will probably always be the ADC.

i wanted to make thread in which ill ask you about your opinion whether adc's as a class should be the CENTER of the game

the thing is that every role has its strenghts and weaknesses and is divides even more once you look at every singe champ

1)we have tanks

  • their main strenght is durability
  • tank's weakness is that they are usualy slow and not wery mobile, so they get outrun or kited preety often, and well riot keeps their main strenght (durability) under a strict controll so they wont get too tanky (to prevent toxic interactions), and %/last whisper

they can be divided into tanky guys who force you to hit them by being a threat to you and the tanky guys who unload cc and utility on the field so you cant ignore them

2)we have assasins

  • main strenght - mobility and fast paced bursty gameplay, they are made to capitalize on specific opportunities and deal dewastating damages in short time
  • their weakness, barely usable if target survives their combo, realy squishy, some of them get removed by items

they can be divided into power assasins like katarina who just unload much at one combo or have resets and other stuff, usualy they are less about dodguing more about finding a good spot and anihilating everything or stealthy assasins, like zed and talon who rely on quick stabbing one guy and getting away before they get touched

3)we have mages

  • main strenght- they deal magic damage, also their kits usualy are well rounded so they get to be usefull at many situations
  • main weakness-mainly squishy, and gated by cooldowns and mana, if mage is on cooldowns then he has literal no offensive power they can be divided into bursty mages, they rely on combos that can realy hurt a squishy, they have longer downtimes and sustained mages, those spamm skills of lesser potency but they dont get those downtimes so often (their cc and utility usualy has longer cooldowns to preserwe the main weakness), they usualy drain themselves out of mana easily

4)we have fighters

  • main srenght- well roundfed kits
  • main weakness- gold reliant, they sualy need to snowball or they cant do much (they get what they build), they are basicaly balls of stats, or their stats gate them to being strong early and weak late

they can be divided into tankier fighters and damage dealing fighters ... just that simple

5)we have supports

  • main strenght- team wide utilityyyyyyyyyyyy (420 yolo praise the sunn etc....)
  • main weakness- lack of offensive capabilities, they are forced to rely on others for that we can divide them into tank supports who bring the fight to the enemy while their team unloads (their kits are more about the offensive itself,) examples are ali/braum/leona or utility supports who focus on heals buffs and all the cool sparkly stuff

6)and then we get marksmen

  • main strenght- kings of damage, they dont pay for damage with any resource and lacks viable counteritemization (thornmail oooh thornmail, a realy good item despite it being a trap in real gameplay, only bought if it counter enemy team, never when enemy adc goes big)
  • main weakness- ?????? entire enemy team hunts them ? besides that there are only some weaknesses specific to each individual champion

what do we divide them onto doesnt realy change anything , we have carries who get some additional dps through their kits, or carries who get some utility instead, but their damage is realy similar despite those diferences

the basic logic points me up to one thing- if you build dmg you dong get to be tanky and vice versa but all other roles have weaknesses on top of that, while the only weakness of the adc is that ppl ignore others and rush for them (especialy assasins)

while it doesnt make adc's op in any way, it realy impacts the gameplay

so simple question. do you thiink its good? or should it be changed?

my personal opinion is that it isnt realy good, it forces a specific set of tactics and metas on us league is about diversity, and having one class as mandatory means that diversity gets stabbed to the toe

TLDR -Lack of capital letters is so op rito nurf plox

56 Comments

Onegarion3 votes

Marksmen are the center because the game is all about taking objectives and the champs that take them the best are marksmen. ADCs are the best way to take towers and the safest. Yea a champ like Yi can take them, but he can't get away as well. The drawback here is that if your adc goes down you aren't going to take towers and they are very easy to blow up. Its easy to get an assassin to delete an adc that needs great positioning to make sure that doesn't happen. If the adc is in the front lines they aren't living long. You seem to overlook this fact in your description of adcs. They trade survivability for power. They are glass cannon and they live as long as the name implies.

Unless the dynamic and the goal to win the game changes from objectives we will always have an ADC in our games. There is nothing you can do to change that. Changing crit doesn't make them take towers slower (if anything its faster). Make them less reliable in fighting? Now they just focus on towers and thats how you win. More than anything its going to change what adcs are played instead of the overall power of adcs.

I don't want to say adcs are fine per say, but they aren't nearly as big of a problem as you make it to be.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are the center because the game is all about taking objectives and the champs that take them the best are marksmen. ADCs are the best way to take towers and the safest. Yea a champ like Yi can take them, but he can't get away as well. The drawback here is that if your adc goes down you aren't going to take towers and they are very easy to blow up. Its easy to get an assassin to delete an adc that needs great positioning to make sure that doesn't happen. If the adc is in the front lines they aren't living long. You seem to overlook this fact in your description of adcs. They trade survivability for power. They are glass cannon and they live as long as the name implies.

Unless the dynamic and the goal to win the game changes from objectives we will always have an ADC in our games. There is nothing you can do to change that. Changing crit doesn't make them take towers slower (if anything its faster). Make them less reliable in fighting? Now they just focus on towers and thats how you win. More than anything its going to change what adcs are played instead of the overall power of adcs.

I don't want to say adcs are fine per say, but they aren't nearly as big of a problem as you make it to be.

there is plenty you can do against that.

this is an extreme example, but lets give turrets 400 armor and a thornmail passive. would adc still be the best at pushing turrets? now mages would probably take that place. while adc would still deal the most damage in fights.

i think its possible to split their role as turret pusher off from their role as damage dealers in teamfights. especially through a stat like attack speed vs critical strikes.

as is better at helping to push turrets. crit is more useful in fights against champions. if we made adc more attack speed focused again and removed crit as a good option for them, they would deal less damage in fights, would hence be a less valuable target, while still being good at pushing turrets. this would be the other example, and very close to their status of the first half of season 3.

i feel like it is fine if they have their nieche as turret pushers. but they shouldnt be the most important member in teamfights aswell. why is it fair, that there is an incredibly high chance to lose the game, just because my bot lane lost?

BluePolarizer1 votes

yeah and Vayne wouldn't be a super snowbally champ anymore where its either get superfed and 3 shot everyone or die to AOE in teamfights while doing zero damage.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

my counter argument to that is that adc's arent the be all end all to pushing towers

also you called them safe ? i assume that you compared an adc taking a tower while protected by his team to yi splitpushing alone (and even if you though about yi having his team you had to assume that yi is pushing tower while his team stands far away, owerall yi without or with his team is safer to take the turret, and probably faster)

the best splitpushers we have are meele's. also trinity force users are realy good for it

also adc's "superiority" in pushing came from riots ballance decisions rather than adc's nature (adc's just deal the most damage owerall, reduce their damage so they wont burst down squishies and their tower pushing is sub par to many things, probably even mages )

Apollocliptic3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2f0gIhK,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-04-23T09:29:47.060+0000)

my counter argument to that is that adc's arent the be all end all to pushing towers

also you called them safe ? i assume that you compared an adc taking a tower while protected by his team to yi splitpushing alone (and even if you though about yi having his team you had to assume that yi is pushing tower while his team stands far away, owerall yi without or with his team is safer to take the turret, and probably faster)

the best splitpushers we have are meele's. also trinity force users are realy good for it

also adc's "superiority" in pushing came from riots ballance decisions rather than adc's nature (adc's just deal the most damage owerall, reduce their damage so they wont burst down squishies and their tower pushing is sub par to many things, probably even mages )

If you reduce their damage, they can still build AS and will STILL consistently take towers, so your final point is well off, adc's push better than mages. ALso, their nature IS to take towers, you say it's riots balancing, but the balancing is to allow them to take towers and objectives, this is core to their nature and if you look at any of the Riot comments on adc's it always comes back to objective control.

I am not disagreeing with your whole point, I mentioned earlier that other champs can push towers, but in a team situation, an ADC does push a tower better than a Yi. If I am volibear trying to defend a tower, I can throw yi into a morgana root and watch him get destroyed, but I can't safely get to Jynx or Cait without initiating a big team fight, where they will retreat to safe distance while their team peels. The same can be said about say Shen or rammus, if Yi or any melee pusher is on the turret, I can taunt them and drain their hp significantly before they escape (kill them if I have damage too or other allies) but the adc isn't close enough for that tactic to work.

the reason why you have them split push is their mobility and escapes, if Yi pushes top, adc can simultaneously push mid or bot, and if they have to back off, Yi can take top and still ulti-escape if the enemy comes after him. If the adc split pushes, they usually get ambushed and killed, or the other lanes can't do much without starting a 4 v 5 team fight since they've lost their safe long range damage dealer.

if anything, adc's damage was increased to make them more viable in fights and not ONLY pushing champions, remove crits and skills is how to stop them bursting down squishies, but would not stop them or even affect their pushing power, which relies on per hit damage and attack speed, nothing to do with burst

Critmaster Garen2 votes

markesmen have too much power over the game.

they either should deal consistent damage in teamfights, or be great at pushing turrets. not both. because its basically the 2 most important jobs pushed onto 1 member of the team. winning teamfights AND taking objectives.

one of the problems i see with them, is that their auto attack damage lategame outclasses the burst damage of mages. a full build mage can get about 500 damage per spell into a fight. then he usually has to wait for ~10 second cooldowns, untill he can get another rotation in. thats less damage on a single ability than a crit of an ad carry.

and lets not forget, that ad carries powercreeped so much over the years, that theyre not only defined by their auto attacks anymore, but a lot of them have a kit full of damage spells that give them similar damage spikes in fights, while also dealing a ton of damage on their auto attacks.

just compare jinx kit to lux. they have similar utility and aoe damage (rocket crits, lol) with high damage dealing spells, while jinx scales with ad and also has a mobility passive. just looking at her kit makes me think im looking at an ad scaling utility mage with attack steroids and mobility.

i feel like they went into a good direction with ad carries during the first half of season 3, when they tried to make them more attack speed focused. before all the horrible item changes, kiting buffs and they buffed i.e. it the stat made them more difficult to handle and team dependent in fights, to put out some serious damage. while it still made them good at pushing turrets.

when it comes to teamfights, and carrying potential the game felt more balanced, when adc were at their weakest when it comes to duelling and killing someone.

it really felt like everyone could carry a game. and adc would still deal top damage in their teams if the player managed him properly.

i still rmemeber all the whining from adc mains how they were nothing but glorified turret pushers. when this was exactly the reason every game still needed an adc. apparantly 1 game winning advantage isnt enough for them.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

one of the problems i see with them, is that their auto attack damage lategame outclasses the burst damage of mages. a full build mage can get about 500 damage per spell into a fight. then he usually has to wait for ~10 second cooldowns, untill he can get another rotation in. thats less damage on a single ability than a crit of an ad carry.

what i would also like to debate is ... what would happen if we would fix that

there is quite many points to cover because thats a huge hit to the ballance

a)adc's arpen itemization needs a buff (their main role was always countering durability, so to emphasizethat riot would need to give them better options at doing so without having a bigger amount of ad) b)adc's need defensive options (they arent the core of their team any more, they are equal with everyone else, which means they will get less peel, they will need something that will allow them to stay alive... but those are minor changes i suppose) c)spell spamming mages need to be nerfed accordingly (to prevent them taking the role of adc's since they are so similar) d)supports need a total ballance rework (they arent the adc's slave any more since adc wont carry the game just because they peel him, so supports would need to evolwe into a role of their own instead of the adc's defender) e)anti adc itemization as it stands would need to be nerfed (its mian purpose was stopping an adc that dewoured teams, if adc does not dewour team such item can make him a minion, especialy frozen heart)

then ofc we would have that huge destabilization of ballance, but we get it every season

Apollocliptic2 votes

Not quite

a) Simple changes like "grievous wounds" on AA's and armour shredding would improve their "anti-sustain" mechanics without them being crit-burst champs

b) The core of the game is STILL pushing objectives, the adc is still vital, it would just mean that in lower elo's the ADC gets less help because people are focussed on kills, I am certain higher elo players will still understand the value of the turret pushers, and the only turret pushers that can do so "during" a team fight/engage dance (just before or after a fight), as opposed to via split pushing

c) spell spamming mages wouldn't be able to push, so it wouldn't affect them at all, the mages job (typically not specifically) is AOE and burst, the adc would still clean up the survivors or chase them away to safely push

d) ADC is still quintessential, and because they no longer burst kill as well, the supports will have to work harder, as mistakes will lead their adc's to die faster, and they will swiftly lose objectives

e) If adc's could not "burst" squishy targets, then they wouldn't need nerfing on tanks. The problem with adc's was they could burst any other champ, then either never kill or instantly kill tank as well, so who can survive them? If they deal essentially the same damage to everyone (say % damage, or like I said with a, armour shred and weakened regen and healing) they would consistantly hurt everyone, without bursting or over powering anyone

League is different to many combat concepts in that the "ranged" fighter was traditionally the support, not the main damage dealer. The front liners dealt the heavy damage, the tanks and bruisers, but the tanks hold bruisers back while ranged pokes them down, weakens their armour and movement, and gives the slower moving tank the mobility advantage + damage advantage to win. While bruisers and engagers, would try to get passed the tank, kill the rangers, then they have the edge over the slower moving heavy armour units (like riven vs Voli, volibear eats riven, but riven's mobility lets her zip in and out of combat. If she fails to get passed volibear she dies, if she succeeds, ultimate she wins) Problem is, league made the ranged "support" unit the ranged "damage dealers" but kept the other mechanics the same (except tanks typically can't deal damage alone, despite having huge hammers or clamours or axes, and other high damage low sustain weapons) League "could" take damage away from adc's and push it towards melee, it could give tanks High damage with low AS, create champs like riven with mana who mitigate damage over time or use energy etc, and it COULD work, but to be fair, then it'd be a different game. There are plenty of games with that format, as that is the "realistic" or "typical" format, league has done something a little different, which sometimes feels broken, but may just be their formular for success, changing it wouldn't be hard, and it wouldn't break the game, but it might lose key "unique" features and lose interest from a lot of players who are happy as it is.

These mechanics are best tested in different games or different game modes, which is a hard truth, but you can't have your cake and eat it :)

ZeeDrakon2 votes

And now compare jinx to a viable midlane. For example xerath. He has way more burst, longer range., better self peel and a better laning phase. Your talking complete bullshit mate

BLU Medic2 votes

The game has always revolved around someone and that someone has always been ADCs. Everyone else exists ONLY to protect the ADC and make sure they get enough gold to kill everyone. It won't change though is because that is what we're all used to.

Normally, that'd be fine, having a center of attention, but ADCs have pretty much anything. They get a personal buddy to protect them, junglers have to gank their lane more often to keep them afloat and look after Dragon and tanks are designed to make sure the other team can't get to them later on. But ADCs also get to do huge damage by clicking and get huge healing because of lifesteal. Maybe they have it a little too easy?

Maybe I am a tad hypocritical, since I play Medic in Team Fortress 2, the most important class. But Medic has distinct downsides - he deals almost no damage and is 100% reliant on his team mates to make use of him, while still having the THIS-PERSON-MUST-DIE factor.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

what you dont seem to touch in your post is one thing

adc's arent the core of the team by nature they also were meant to have a specific role and specific downsides to it (they just got derailed from their original design as the game progressed)

their role was to counter tanks, they deal loads of sustained damage that isnt gated by any resource nor cooldown, so tanks cant just sit in their range as it results in death

what is my question is whether such a state where adc is the literal core of the team is good in your opinion

BLU Medic1 votes

Well, not really, they have too much power these days. Their job is to counter tanks, but for a long time they were doing that so well that tanks simply never saw play. Being the core of the team is good if you have distinct weaknesses which can easily be exploited, but you often end up with too much power - both power and mobility creep, especially with newer ADCs.

Occasionally you can pull off an ADC-less team, but it requires a lot of extra effort and isn't as efficient as just having an ADC.

ZeeDrakon2 votes

Your mistakes pretty heavily tbh. (And since your lvl 29 its absolutely no problem dont get me wrong) but adcs are quite bad in the current tank/assasin meta and many high elo players/streamers and pros agree that it is one of if not the hardest lane to play properly.

BLU Medic1 votes

But surely the tank meta is really good for ADCs, since there's loads of people they counter (tanks) and loads of people to protect and peel for them (also tanks)?

ZeeDrakon2 votes

Have you played the game lately? Its not. With cinderhulk its too easy to get unkillable very early. Adcs dont "counter" tanks, esp not tanks that can combo you to 10% hp whilst having 350 armor, thornmail and atkspeed reduction and 4k hp

BLU Medic2 votes

Eh, I dunno. I've always been told that ADCs are supposed to be weak early on and really powerful later on, so it makes somewhat sense that tanks seem unkillable early on.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Yes and no. When i play support Leona, now i go Face of the Mountain (+500hp) then Cinderhulk (+350hp) (+25%). As soon as those two are done, unless the ADC is Vayne, i can basically tower dive at will and not give a damn about their 150-200 damage hits as i now have close to 3k health. And that's before even trying to get armor. As a plus, i get the AOE burn of Cinderhulk, the smite's slow, and from the money item an active shield, which generally makes eliminating an ADC a cinch.

Apollocliptic2 votes

{quoted}

Your mistakes pretty heavily tbh. (And since your lvl 29 its absolutely no problem dont get me wrong) but adcs are quite bad in the current tank/assasin meta and many high elo players/streamers and pros agree that it is one of if not the hardest lane to play properly.

There was a debate recently that brought up something along these lines:

Adc's are meant to stop tanks, they did so too well, Assassins got buffed to take down ADC's but then assassins got too strong, Tanks got buffed to stop the Assassin meta, but then they started to overpower the ADC's.

A nightmare cycle which needs to be broken. The problem (imo not literally) is that to buff adc's they are simply given more power and mobility, so they become less reliant on team peeling, but that makes it easy for them to kill EVERY lane, not just tanks. Their strengths don't seem to focus solely on defeating tanks (like anti-heal mechanics, armour shredding mechanics, %dmg) so by making them stronger, they overwhelm everything else. But when other lanes are made stronger to compensate, the cycle continues. We are just in the "tank" cycle right now, and soon ADC's will be getting buffed again (next couple months) but unless they are given specific anti-tank weapons as opposed to just more AS, AD and Armor pen, they buffs will be too global and continue the cycle of buffs and shifts in metas'

Since adc's are meant to focus Turrets and other objectives, not tanks, the game can still be balanced in this current meta without further overhauls. Yeah the adc is more difficult now than it has been in a while, but for the quintessential role it should be right? Many argue (don't know about rank or elo) that it's the support that has the hardest role of protecting the adc, and the adc just needs to capitalise on the Supports plays, or point and shoot while the support peels (don't think it's that simple but their always room for debate)

Apollocliptic3 votes

You are a little off there, ADC's are not meant to kill everyone, they are meant to provide sustained damage and secure objectives. APC often does the mass teamwide damage, in that case, the ADC or assassins clean up.

The original and main focus of the adc is objectives, not kills, kills are just a means to get objectives.

In a similar post, it was suggested to have AP champs that could secure objectives, and in many games fighters need to be focussed as much as an ADC. Many team fights (especially losing and sometimes equal) end, leaving a question of "who's left?" If the last man standing is Leona or Orianna, chances are they might take one turret, drop some wards and return to base, but if it is Jynx or Trydamere, then you might lose 3 turrets, or turret, inhib and drake.

You focus the adc top stop them pushing after the fight, you focus assassins to stop them taking out your adc, the game is still quite situational, which is why you get so many debates as to what went wrong during matches or team fights.

Anyway< i digress, I'm just pointing out the misconception with ADC's and while they are consistently present, teams without an ADC have been known to win as long as they have another reliable DPS champ and good teamwork. It's because some ADCs are like assassins or can Nuke, or some Tanks can push objectives like an ADC that you get issues with balance and shifts in METAs

ps. this was not targeted at you BLU Medic, but in response to a few that have mentioned the role of ADC, your other points are all fair

BLU Medic1 votes

You have a point, but their ability to push down towers seems to automatically make them really stupidly good at killing people too. That's where I get confused.

Even more so when you have a support or mage next to you, an assassin jumping in to kill the enemy ADC and two chunks of meat to peel and CC for you. It's a somewhat hard role, but more because there's often no team work and are reliant on someone else at the start of the game.

Also, where do critical hits come into this? That's a wholly different form of burst damage that no one can protect against.

Apollocliptic1 votes

I mention critical hits because there's a big argument on another pages that brings them up.

ADC's typically have sustain damage (dps) and while some are AD casters (like Lucian), others rely almost entirely on AAs (Vayne), which should divide into bursty and dps champs. But many DPS champs do critical damage that lets them burst. Many Vayne's or Dravens land a single AA and deal like 600+ damage, add static shiv and other on hit procs and they can do massive burst IN ADDITION to being massively DPS.

Some argue that it's the crit bursting that makes them so unbalanced at times

The crit system was introduced to improve their combat power without affecting their pushing power (since you can't crit turrets), but some think it should be removed to focus soley on their pushing.

And yeah, the tie in between killing people and taking turrets is what makes many players focus on the kill aspects more. That's why people bring up removing burst on ADC's and at least removing Crits, so killing becomes tougher without decent peel and time to build up damage, but pushing remains the same, because some push focussed champs can burst kill, while burst focussed champs don't push so easily. Roles start to become blurred.

Final point in agreement with what you said about assassins, ADC's should be able to kill assassins when their support or cc mage is peeling, but otherwise they are meant to get taken out. Many Graves boast about their ability to blow up LB with a swift Buckshot Ulti (+ static and one AA) this defeats the purpose of being a sustain damage champ because you have burst on par if not better than a mage (I don't have a problem with Graves, but that's just an example of how the adc role has blurred lines)

BLU Medic1 votes

Surely the DPS people shouldn't be able to burst, otherwise what's the point of anyone being a DPS? It just seems a bit silly that a character designed to produce a lot of damage slowly over time should also (completely at -pseudo- random) be able to burst as well.

Oh well. I suppose we're just stuck with ADCs, since it's unlikely anything more efficient will ever come along. Or just remove random crits. That would make almost everyone happy.

Apollocliptic1 votes

Well that's the argument isn't it, crits don't seem to be a fair or consistent element to gameplay, but while there are a few reasons why it is preferred, I believe the main reason that a Rioter mentioned (besides crit fishing and preventing snowballing via "comebacks" through crits) was the "feel good" element of crits.

No matter how much you hate being hit by a crit, no one hates landing one, and the special affects, extra graphics or sounds that can be piled on top add to this. Good feeling crits go as far back as Pokemon and probably further, seeing that extra chunk of health drop, and the satisfaction you get from something that was actually entirely out of your hands, maybe cause it makes you feel like you have "an ally" in the form of luck, coding or divine intervention lol. There's a lot of psychology behind the pro's of critical elements in any game, but often they are just lucky shots, league allows them to be potentially game changing, creating chances to win a fight you should have lost, or maintain a lead after letting yourself be ambushed out of position but you burst that Fizz before he lands his ultimate and you're ok now :D

For this reason most of my suggestions have been around controlling crits and reducing the randomness of them. People want a flat amplifier on crits (instead of random dmg buff) but that doesn't feel good, and it doesn't serve a purpose, you might as well remove them and give all adc's a straight buff (also the way it affects champs like Ashe and Cait are much bigger). So removing them completely would change the dynamics hugely, hence, controlling the implementation, making them stack instead of random, or create subcode that prevents double crits or ensures a crit if you haven't had one in a while. You keep all the pro's at the cost of some complicated integration and having a few (quite a few) guys shift up their strategies and builds a bit.

(personally, as an XCom player, I have had 90% chance to hit and 95% chance for crit and missed 3/4 shots with the one I land not crit, my bad luck with chance based games is legendary amongst my mates so I hate the chance mechanic in any game, but appreciate it's worth) That's why I suggest keeping chance for attacking, but adding limiters and insurance for when you set up the perfect scenario and fail because of simply terrible luck

BLU Medic1 votes

Or we can just remove them, since there's plenty of other feel-good moments in LoL, like landing a crucial skill shot or getting a kill or winning a team fight or whatever.

Either way, I'm biased as a TF2 player, where a crit can destroy 3 people at once.

Apollocliptic1 votes

lol well I'm on your side, I just accept why they might not follow that ideal

BLU Medic1 votes

I don't think Riot ever will remove crits either. I mean, people have been asking to get (at the very least) random damage spread in TF2 removed but nothing has happened.

Apollocliptic1 votes

probably comes down to numbers, unless something like 80% of players agree it's bad, it's unlikely to change. Thing about crits is the people that like them won't say anything, so it's hard to judge how popular they are on a percentage scale, it might only be 20% dislike but 40% like and 40% don't care (shrugs shoulders)

BLU Medic1 votes

Generic apathy is generally the reason.

ZeeDrakon2 votes

Erm... adcs have a lot of downsides... squishy, even more squoshy than mages in general because many have either shields or higher base stats. Lower range than most mages Less burst, so you cant duel most other roles because you rely on getting a lot of dmg over a long period of time Armor... especially in the tank meta. youll have 2-4 people with tons of HP and armor sitting in your face late most of the times Few mobility/self peel

Trash MammaI1 votes

Squishy is a lie. Being ranged and having lifesteal makes you tanky. Not to mention getting that one defensive item (banshee/randuin/visage/ga etc.) makes it even more of a pain in the ass.

Their range is most certainly not lower than most mages..

Burst isn't always good. Sustained damage works better sometimes

Armor - item 3071 item 3142 item 3035 is a highly irrelevant stat to adcs

Few mobility/self peel? Honestly how long have you played? Varus Twitch MissFortune Jinx are the only immobile adcs (unless you count sivir and ignore her passive/ult then she can be added) in which case all 4 have an AoE slow (except jinx she has champurz) for self-peel. One of them has stealth that grants MS (so that can be considered mobility) and if you count jinx's passive then yah

All the others have both self-peel and mobility in one. Vayne has tumble/condem. Cait has her net and traps. Kalista has her stupid hop etc.

ZeeDrakon2 votes

If you build black cleaver on adcs hopenis most certainly lost. But good to know that a silver 3 jungle/ support player knows more about adc than adc mains in plat dia and challenger.

Trash MammaI1 votes

I listed it there to point out Armor pen. Not the item in general.

Also apparently I do considering everything you stated was incorrect as shit.

But

adc mains in plat dia and challenger.

So in other words you're biased as fuck when it comes to this matter? Trying to make it seem like adcs aren't breast fed everything? MOST adcs are given every single thing they need to win in this game (except maybe mixed damage in which some adcs have that).

ZeeDrakon1 votes

Im biased in the way that i dont care about the opinion of a silver player that doesnt even play the role bit wants to explain it to me when i Main it and share opinions with professional adcs

Trash MammaI1 votes

Erm... adcs have a lot of downsides... squishy, even more squoshy than mages in general because many have either shields or higher base stats. Lower range than most mages Less burst, so you cant duel most other roles because you rely on getting a lot of dmg over a long period of time Armor... especially in the tank meta. youll have 2-4 people with tons of HP and armor sitting in your face late most of the times Few mobility/self peel

Sure, i'm in silver. I don't play adc much either because I hate being babied and prefer to do things my way. Yea, i'm probably not as good as you either I had to climb out of bronze..twice

but

Being in low divisions such as them I know how bronze/silver players talk and this is definitely bronze/silver adc main talk.

ZeeDrakon1 votes

Well if they share my (and high elos) opiniom theyrr probavly right. But you are certainly wrong. But you appearantly cant accept that

Trash MammaI1 votes

More like you can't handle the fact someone in a lower elo is right and you're wrong. Typical adc mains. Can't tell them shit

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

If you build black cleaver on adcs

Sivir

her bouncing blades make it possible to shred the armor of multiple targets. the flat penetration makes it as useful against squishies as lw. and it comes with 50 ad as opposed to 40 on lw. id say as item to counter armor, cleaver wins over last whisper on sivir.

though shes the only adc that makes effective use of cleaver imo.

ZeeDrakon1 votes

Would disagree, you wont hit many people with W in teamfights and lw gives you much muuuch more pen against people that buy armor. Even aps with zhonyas have enough armor to make lw more effektive

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Would disagree, you wont hit many people with W in teamfights and lw gives you much muuuch more pen against people that buy armor. Even aps with zhonyas have enough armor to make lw more effektive

her glaive already adds 2 stacks. and the hitting multiple people with w is noth that hard.

Apollocliptic1 votes

{quoted}

If you build black cleaver on adcs hopenis most certainly lost. But good to know that a silver 3 jungle/ support player knows more about adc than adc mains in plat dia and challenger.

Ironically, the role of adc synergises quite well with Black Cleaver (On paper) it's just not a good option in league for other reasons

GinoSoldier1 votes

I rather disagree. It feels to me like people just won't try anything else than ADC, however, has anyone tried a Sona/Karma bot lane? In lane, Karma farms while Sona pokes, their sustain and mobility is astounding together, and they can carry an entire team easily due to their CC/sustain abilities later in the game. Sure they might not push so fast, but i can guarantee you the enemy ADC won't be able to push either, and 9/10 they'll be farming under their own turrets.

I can say something similar about a Leona/Braum bot lane with double smite and Face of the Moutain. The hard engages are magnificent, good timing from Braum's W on a Leona E brings them both in the ADC's face, and unless it's Vayne, they shouldn't be able to do much at all, not counting the fact that you and your tanky friend basically share 4 out of 6 minions every wave. Between Concussive Blows and Sunlight, there usually isn't any problems where getting kills is concerned, and triple smite is always grand for objectives.

BastionKross2 votes

This strategy (duo support) can work very well. In fact, just about any botlane combo will beat a marksman/support in lane since the early game of most marksmen is abysmal and you can take advantage of that with a kill lane. In fact, if the game doesn't drag out, you can win regularly with this kind of strat.

The problem results in that, if the match does make to late game, no one else on your team will have the objective control or sustained teamfighting DPS with the safety of a marksman. What are you going to do about the enemy tanks, the class that marksman are meant to counter? Blow them up with mages? Beat them down with bruisers? Assassinate them? Chances are that's not going to work unless you're very fed.

Marksmen are needed because no other class is as strong when it comes to late game power. Certain hyper scaling champions can match them in some respects, but not any other class as a whole. So if you don't plan on having a marksman on your team, that's totally viable. You just have to win quickly, which is sometimes easier said than done.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

{quoted}

The problem results in that, if the match does make to late game, no one else on your team will have the objective control

Nasus

Ada Wong1 votes

You don't need an adc to win its a made up meta by players, sure it works better if you can't win early game and everyone gets MR, AD damage is always good to have but you do not need Marksmen to win a game, you could go yasuo if you are good, or fiora there is no rule that says you have to have a marksman on the team its just players will complain if you don't do this, and possibly report.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/YOOZYYeZ-climbing-ranked-by-duo-queuing-two-tanks-in-bot-lane?comment=0000

Its just simply about what works best however with that said you can almost look at a team and assuming that both teams are equally skilled know who will win based off champions alone excluding skill factors and actual throws but direct full fights.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ada Wong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2f0gIhK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-04-23T09:54:23.776+0000)

You don't need an adc to win its a made up meta by players, sure it works better if you can't win early game and everyone gets MR, AD damage is always good to have but you do not need Marksmen to win a game, you could go yasuo if you are good, or fiora there is no rule that says you have to have a marksman on the team its just players will complain if you don't do this, and possibly report.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/YOOZYYeZ-climbing-ranked-by-duo-queuing-two-tanks-in-bot-lane?comment=0000

Its just simply about what works best however with that said you can almost look at a team and assuming that both teams are equally skilled know who will win based off champions alone excluding skill factors and actual throws but direct full fights.

ive seen this argument every time over the past years, when it coms to discussions about adc.

and in the end, while you dont need an adc in every game, your chances to win and the efford you have to put into a game without one is gigantic. even if youre winning the early phase of a game, without an adc in your team. youll usually lose the game as you cant push objectives of the advantage.

being able to win a game without an adc is a rare occation. id say its just as unlikely as the chance of winning a 4v5.

Sightless661 votes

id say its just as unlikely as the chance of winning a 4v5.

I remember someone did a statistical analysis on reddit a while ago on the likelihood of winning a game based on how many AD carries a team had. If I remember correctly, it was a 43% winrate without an ADC, 51ish% for 1-2 AD carries, and then it dropped like a stone for 3 or more.

They are important, but their necessity is somewhat overstated. I'd hazard a guess that team comps with an alternate pusher could actually get by without an ADC just fine.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

You don't need an adc to win its a made up meta by players

meta isnt made up

meta always exists and players find it

meta is in short explanation - the most effective way of playing the game

its a big deal and for a reason, this game is competetive so the main aim of riot should be to make the meta the least possibly dominant over other strategies

but yes you can win without an adc .... in normals or when you are a skilled duo or whatever that has a big advantage of skill over the enemies also to back up your argument point me out one game of lcs that happened this season when pros played without an adc

Sightless661 votes

meta is in short explanation - the most effective way of playing the game

Allow me to be pedantic for a minute. The meta isn't the most effective way of playing the game. By definition, it is just the way the game is played. It might be the most effective way, and it will trend towards that over time, but a meta formed by incorrect player perceptions or biases would still be the meta (I'm not saying that is what is going on here, I'm just being a stickler over the definition).

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

loads of text that does not prove me wrong, what is your point ?

in competetive game meta will always be the most effective way of playing, and if there would be something that beats our current meta .... we would see it used in lcs

Sightless661 votes

in competetive game meta will always be the most effective way of playing,

A metagame isn't the most effective way of playing, it is the most common way of playing. It will be what people think is the most effective way of playing. They don't have to be right. A less effective way of playing can be the meta so long as it is the most played. That's my point. I suppose a secondary point would be that LCS players aren't necessarily playing the best way, they're just playing the best way they know and/or are practiced at playing. That does not guarantee better strategies don't exist.

Again, I'm not saying the use of AD carries is a place where the metagame is incorrect. I'm only saying your definition is wrong and you give too much credit to competitive players.

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