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@Meddler, regarding your statement about Rylais

Malicious Metal··88 votes·5,903 views

Meddler (NA) - about 6 hours ago Rylai's is also on the list of items we'll be changing in pre-season. At present it's too universal a choice, whereas we'd prefer extra CC be something with more of a trade off to it. Not yet sure if that'll mean lowering it's damage (more of a tanky/utility thing), lowering it's health (making it a squishy kite option) or some alternate approach (making it only work with certain spell types or something like that).

While I absolutely think Rylais is in dire need of changes this statement left a really icky feeling in my gut, especially the second option about making it a squishy kiting option.

There's already a lack of mana less hp+ap options and once again nerfing Rylais' HP would really hurt those champions who always wanted it for the mix of defense and offense and NOT those who simply built it because of its huge amount of AP.

Rylais should, IMO be the defensive utility option (Rylai is a support after all) that should be consciously built in order to make you provide more utility to your team and allow you to become a bit more durable with its slows and health.

Though the last point of making it only work on certain spells seems interesting too though it's bound to screw over some champions.

In the end any changes to rylais WILL have consequences and impact some of its users either positively or negatively, knowing this I'm anxious to see what exactly you'll be planning to do to the item and IF some champions get dumpstered by it (Mordekaiser ) you're going to give them the attention they need.

-MM

175 Comments

Sona x Rubick31 votes

"rylai is fine"- board

i'm amazed by the fact that meddler understood how universal it is, and how it gives a retarded amount of damage for the utility it gives make it a defensive/utility item, built on bruisers, built on mages if they want to survive an annie burst, built on supports like zyra if they want utility not build on Annie as a 2nd/3rd item because it gives 100 AP.

make it 60 AP/550 or 600 hp reduce the cost to something like 3000, and it will be fine also maybe reduce the slow to 30% for aoes but increase the duration to 2 secondsto avoid strong permanent slows from aoe spells.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eiuRyb8gAvs/hqdefault.jpg

Malicious Metal22 votes

600 health?! That would almost be enough to compensate Morde for his shitty base hp : ^)

Sona x Rubick9 votes

not even close, i still remember dying against yasuo at lvl 2 due to that base hp.

Hail Kaiser21 votes

Don't forget the base armor. Huge hulking figure in full plate mail with sub 20 starting armor...

Count Zubat17 votes

Just because he was to opressive in bot lane, the role everybody knew is going to be gutted (and it was, bonus exp nerf killed bot lane Morde).

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

Its tin.

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

-Foil

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

To be fair, Yasuo is rather strong in level 1 and 2 fights.

Sona x Rubick7 votes

i just played a game with malicious, and he almost died to riven at lvl 2

not only yasuo, every champs like yasuo are a mess for morde due to certainlyt trolling with his base stats.

Critmaster Garen12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-12T14:40:15.126+0000)

i just played a game with malicious, and he almost died to riven at lvl 2

not only yasuo, every champs like yasuo are a mess for morde due to certainlyt trolling with his base stats.

riven is a different beast.

and rylais is a shitty counter to champions like riven. she doesnt care that shes slowed as long as she can still spam dashes.

i think one of the main issue people have with the idea of nerfing rylais is that they mistake it as a counter for mobility. when it actually counters low mobility champs much harder, and its omnipresence forces a meta of high mobility champions who can compensate with short cooldown dashes for being permaslowed.

put up a teemo with a frozen mallet against a darius, garen, morde, and they will get destroyed by his auto attack spam without having a way to get in range and fight back, or get out of range.

riven or yasuo will probably still be able to dahs in range and burst him.

Sona x Rubick7 votes

what the fuck? i'm talking about lvl 2, not when morde buys rylai

and yes, rylai doesn't matter against riven thanks to her low cooldown dash, but it does matter against yasuo when you're clever and you don't fight him in lane.

The reason morde buys rylai is because 90% of the champions in this game don't have a riven lvl of mobility, even if they have some dash, morde will still catch them unless they have a strong cc. take lucian, he builds youmu into IE, his dash is on like 5/6 seconds in mid game, and that if he turns and hit you.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T14:53:44.027+0000)

what the fuck? i'm talking about lvl 2, not when morde buys rylai

and yes, rylai doesn't matter against riven thanks to her low cooldown dash, but it does matter against yasuo when you're clever and you don't fight him in lane.

The reason morde buys rylai is because 90% of the champions in this game don't have a riven lvl of mobility, even if they have some dash, morde will still catch them unless they have a strong cc. take lucian, he builds youmu into IE, his dash is on like 5/6 seconds in mid game, and that if he turns and hit you.

ya, thats why i said riven is a different problem.

im still convinced that rylais is a stronger tool for a lot of ranged champions to completely fuck morde over, than it is a tool for him to stick.

in a scenario where malzahar and morde both have rylais, the malzahar would easily permaslow and kite the morde until hes dead, before morde can make proper use of the item himself.

thats why i think morde needs direct buffs to his kit to not be reliant on rylais as a bandaid, while they should nerf the slow in general. i agree that it should be a lot more windowed.

Raid Boss Morde4 votes

Actually, no. Mordekaiser beats Malz extremely easy, even when both have Rylais. Malzahar can't kill Mordekaiser, he gets full heals off Malz's Voidlings. So that wasn't the best example.

lighning232 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-12T14:40:15.126+0000)

i just played a game with malicious, and he almost died to riven at lvl 2

not only yasuo, every champs like yasuo are a mess for morde due to certainlyt trolling with his base stats.

Certainlyt isnt the one nerfing his base stats. Its the balance team.

Best princess EU1 votes

what's that pic?

Malicious Metal23 votes

Crystal Maiden Rylai from Dota2

exiledFromBadmen6 votes

Reminded me of my terrible drawing about item 3116. https://store.donanimhaber.com/41/0e/37/410e378d3de0cecaac808a483bfba246.jpg

Sona x Rubick2 votes

you call that terrible?

...

exiledFromBadmen2 votes

You call that good?

Edit: Fixed it for ya

crippler384 votes

better than anything I could draw.

arghilost9 votes

annie is one of the best rylai users in the game. It literally procs off her entire kit. with your short range, slowing somebody when they merely autoattack you is amazing. The perma AOE slow from bear is amazing. You are fucked if you get hit by any of her spells. I usually build it first or second item its so good.

Pika Fox2 votes

It doesnt work nearly as well for her as youd suggest, particularly because of her short range kit, and her passive wasting large portions of the slow.

She wants to AoE stun, not spend gold on a slow that she doesnt particularly want. Only real reason she gets it eventually is because its more efficient than a 2nd RoA.

HateDaddy7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2016-09-12T15:12:00.724+0000)

It doesnt work nearly as well for her as youd suggest, particularly because of her short range kit, and her passive wasting large portions of the slow.

She wants to AoE stun, not spend gold on a slow that she doesnt particularly want. Only real reason she gets it eventually is because its more efficient than a 2nd RoA.

Well it's a good thing it gives 100 AP and she can just randomly enjoy the tacked on slow and Hp

Pika Fox1 votes

Even if it gave 70 AP she might still buy it at times. She has no mobility, so she wants HP + AP items. She really doesnt care about the slow. Its virtually useless to her, shed get CDR well before she even bothered with the slow.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=00000003000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T16:50:40.584+0000)

Even if it gave 70 AP she might still buy it at times. She has no mobility, so she wants HP + AP items. She really doesnt care about the slow. Its virtually useless to her, shed get CDR well before she even bothered with the slow.

And that's completely fine. She should be buying when she wants the slow, not all the time because it gives 100 AP and "oh cool a slow." That's my issue with rylais, people can swear up and down they're buying it for the slow but many champions simply aren't. Change the AP on it by reducing it by 30-40 and I can promise you only champions who actually care about the items passive will buy it. It's almost as if passives on items should matter.

arghilost2 votes

rats I shoulda known the silver player that doesnt even play annie knows her way better then me. what was I thinking!

Pika Fox2 votes

Thats a good ad hominem you got there.

arghilost2 votes

kind of like the one where you insinuated you knew better then me when you don't even play the champion. Even leaving your trash silver rank out of it.

I just searched all queues on op.gg, not a single annie game played ever. You're talking out of your ass.

Pika Fox1 votes

Ive played annie, so clearly your search is incorrect.

And you have no idea what an ad hominem is do you? Youve used one twice in a row now. Ive yet to use an ad hominem.

arghilost2 votes

0 ranked games on annie this season, good try though.

Ad hominems don't mean you autowin an argument you monkey, it just means you are susceptible to them. I don't know why you keep bringing this up like I care. I'll insult you all I want buddy when some loser that spams bot games comes in acting like hes superior to everyone and knows anything about this game when you are spewing wrong information.

Pika Fox2 votes

I have like 30 ranked games total, and youre using ranked as an argument? Yeah ok.

And if im wrong, youd have a valid argument, not some bullshit about my irrelevant rank.

arghilost3 votes

you are extremely wrong, Where did you get your ego when you are not even at good at this game?

Pika Fox2 votes

Yeah, im done. You have no valid counter claim and just repeat fallacy. Must suck to be wrong to someone whos bad at the game.

arghilost3 votes

there's nothing to claim, eveything correct is right there in my first post. Sorry that you intruded with your wrong information, got called out for it, then are now leaving. What will I ever do without your wrong information!! /s

Pika Fox1 votes

"One of the best users" is laughable.

  1. annie has short range, meaning she cant proc it with reliable poke without recourse and has to get into range to even proc the slow. She also has no mobility to back this up

  2. Her kit has hard CC built in, and her playstyle revolves around AoE stunning the enemy team and 100-0ing a target within that stun duration. Rylais slow does not factor into this.

Arguably the only part of her kit that can use it is tibbers while hes up, if he even procs it passively.

arghilost5 votes

http://na.op.gg/champion/annie/statistics/mid

rylai's highest winrate across the board no matter what the context.

Proceed to keep theorycrafting and not actually play the game though.

It's almost like a champ with overloaded burst doesn't need more damage and utility items like protobelt and rylai's are better buys, who woulda known!

Troll for Trump2 votes

"rylai is fine"- board

Kinda the opposite.

There HAVE been a number of anti-rylai threads.

Jefftiffy12 votes

Rylia's lost the defensive tag once they rework mage items. The mage item rework turned it into a damage item. 100 AP is quite a lot. Drop it down to 80 and give it more HP. I think that is the fix that needs to happen.

YoureSquiddingMe12 votes

It's only good because there are no other viable 100 or 120 ap items to fill the slot. You pretty much get morello, rab, and rylai if you want damage. If full build ap values fall even lower then it's going to be very annoying to play any champion designed to deal ap damage in a world where bruisers fall just short of you already.

DemoGuide2 votes

Exactly that. Also, I believe, rylai is better than ROA for 90% of mages. They should be differentiated somehow. And give zhonyas fucking 80 AP already. This shit bothers me a lot!

Very Hard Engage8 votes

my fav part of this is that hes already thinking about lowering the damage.

because as we all know, mages cant have 120ap items, cant have burst, and above all, shouldn't be able to combo resistance-less people to death.

#bring back full ap "i want to kill something with magic damage" builds.

dapositiveviking2 votes

wait for preseason changes. the champions that should burst already do, the ones that shouldn't, dont

edit: looking back, this was probably the least thought out thing i've posted on the boards

Very Hard Engage11 votes

pretty sure mid season mage update was supposed to take care of that, now we have several new items not to build. and a bunch of old ones rendered obsolete.

you want me to trust riot to try again?

riots focus is on assassins in the pre season.

Mandang010 votes

What's even worse is that mages are currently balanced around Thunderlord's adding burst. If Riot ever does the right thing and removes it, burst will be even harder for mages (hey, maybe Riot will buff Luden's back out of irrelevance!)

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

What's even worse is that mages are currently balanced around Thunderlord's adding burst. If Riot ever does the right thing and removes it, burst will be even harder for mages (hey, maybe Riot will buff Luden's back out of irrelevance!)

Riot won't remove keystones at this point. They've gone too far with them to ever remove them. They'll rebalance them for sure, but they won't remove them.

the weeaboo1 votes

They should just rework Thunderlords. It is honestly the only broken keystone right now, although Fervor is a close second. I'd like to see something like:

Thunderlord's Vigor

After casting a spell, each additional spell cast increases the damage of the next spell within the next 3 seconds cast by 1%. 20 second cooldown.

This would still hold the burst aspect but it would reduce the amount of damage because it wouldn't scale directly with AP.

HazyCloud72 votes

Fervor is much, much more problematic than thunderlords. It's a huge part of the reason, along with grasp, that people were building tanky and still putting out very good damage. Yasuo is a huge offender of this.

The suggested keystone idea you made would be totally worthless. 1%? How many spells do you expect a burst mage to throw out?

the weeaboo1 votes

Haha didn't mean to put 1% I meant to put 4% but I hit the wrong keypad button. MB.

HazyCloud72 votes

Ah ok. Sorry for coming off a tad aggressive, the mage hate circle jerk on these boards is getting to me.

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

I think you might be playing the wrong game

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