Caitlyn Discussion: Annoying or Overpowered?

AFilthyCaitMain·Apr 27, 2017·6 votes·6,420 views

This is something interesting a friend of mine brought up and id like to discuss it.

Strengths -Safe -Great laning phase -Can take objectives easily -Scary poke -Has a short dash -Can somewhat deal with ganks -Siege master -somewhat easy to pick up and nice skill ceiling because her combos, traps, etc -Good kiting with her net and traps

Weaknesses -Cant handle getting bursted (Syndra, Lux, Zed, etc) -Can get shut down hard in lane -Falls off mid game if she cant get ahead -Gets outscaled by other ADCs late game -Her net has a higher cooldown (16 / 14.5 / 13 / 11.5 / 10) -Cant handle getting cc'ed and locked down (Like against a Jax who can keep catching back up to her and stunning her) -Runs out of mana quickly early if youre not careful -Doesnt do well against sustain lanes (Soraka, Nami, etc) -Has nothing to fall back on when shes ran out of her safety tools

So this begs the question, is she overpowered or just annoying? What's everyone elses thoughts on this?

45 Comments

KVbqbFsC8eApr 27, 20175 votes

I don't think some of those "weaknesses" you listed really apply. What ADC can handle "being bursted"? That doesn't seem like a valid "weakness", all ADCs can be bursted. I also don't understand the "Can get shut down hard in lane". That can again apply to any ADC, and of all ADCs its least likely to happen to Cait as she has a ridiculously safe and strong laning phase. And she certainly does not get outscaled lategame, she's one the strongest 6 item ADCs.

I think she is both annoying and overpowered.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 27, 20171 votes

The point of her being a lane bully is to get ahead or suffer through the mid game fall off. And i added those weaknesses because they may be general, but theyre a weakness. By getting shut down hard in lane i mean if she gets killed 2+ times and is suffering in gold, her later early game isnt impactful and her mid game is overall just bad for her. And she does get outscaled late game (Jinx, Vayne, Ashe, etc etc etc all those great late game champions)

DuskDaUmbreonApr 27, 20172 votes

Some marksmen handle burst better than others. Ashe and Kindred both can panic-ult, Cait can only slow in a panic. Likewise, some can come back better than others. Ashe (again) brings a ton of CC and utility, so she never really becomes "useless", per se. Cait…can KS, assuming nobody's in the way, and…can place some traps for a short snare.

TheJakeinatorApr 27, 20174 votes

Cant handle getting bursted. So like every ADC?
Can get shut down hard in lane? Is this cait player bronze 5? Cait dominates lane harder then anyone
Falls off mid game? Mid game is her strongest point
Falls off late game? Never gets to late game because she rolls her lane and ends the game at 20-25.
Can't handle getting cc'd or locked down. So you mean like every carry?
Is weak vs sustain lanes. Sustain lanes are often passive which means she just takes your turret at 8 min anyways and doesnt have to kill you

AFilthyCaitMainApr 27, 20172 votes

Thats my point
Yes but if she falls behind too much she doesnt do so well later in the early game and mid game
Mid game is her worst point, she hasnt stacked her crit and ad enough yet to have a big impact, look it up if you dont believe me
I never said she fell off late game, just that she gets outscaled by other ADCs
My point again
If she cant kill you shell fall off, and if youre good enough youll be able to keep the wave away from your turret in a Caitlyn game.

warpenguin555Apr 28, 20173 votes

both

MannnyApr 28, 20173 votes

No ADC should have a good laning phase and good late game. She is annoying and overpowered.

BârdApr 28, 20171 votes

She has a good lane phase.

She has a good late game.

She has one of the worst mid-games out there.

Her kit just doesn't work at that stage. You don't have enough AS or AD to make your passive useful. Q has too long a cast time to be worth it. W is too unreliable in a fight. E is a good spell, but its CD is too long for what it does at this point. R is a good finisher, but it's damn near useless aside from that. You can't even use it as effective poke until you have Items+levels.

She is annoying if she sets up a trap line, but if she does that it means she can't do it anywhere else, making a simple rotation all you need to counter it midgame.

charge attackApr 28, 20171 votes

Yeah but she's OP if her team knows what they're doing. She's REALLY BAD and running AT you, but all she does is shove waves into tower and try and siege. Force you to engage on her and running AT Caitlyn when she's allowed tonkite back is devastating for the enemy.

Pretty much she gets fed off tower and minion gold and then brute forces inhib towers late game because of stupid poke.

HOWEVER, if she doesn't win lane then the rotations and siege never start and she gets stuck in mid game for too long and her team inevitably gets caught during that time and it's all over for her. Until ofc your team throws and now it's impossible to end the game cuz of Caits antiseige capabilities.

TLDR: fk that champ it's personal

MannnyApr 29, 20171 votes

Her mid game is bad you say? I'd like to point out her traps keep her consistent all around no matter the point in the game. A good Caitlyn can effectively use her traps in scrimmage fights in the mid game and anytime to be honest. R isn't solely used for a finisher anymore, it's guaranteed poke that is usually used before a teamfight brews and can be very useful. E is only good for an escape which is all she needs it for. She provides too much for a late-game ADC.

OleandervineApr 27, 20172 votes

She's like every CertainlyT champ/rework (with only Warwick and Thresh being the exceptions). She's a pain in the ass to deal with, but because she's "fun" to play, they won't get rid of the terrible mechanics that make her frustrating.

Shuyin178Apr 27, 20172 votes

The traps are the only thing that are a problem in her kit. If she couldn't wall people off with them so badly then she wouldn't be nearly as irritating. But the fact that she just spams them under your tower and covers bushes in them is stupid and needs changed.

Her traps should only last 1/4 of their normal duration under towers and should not be allowed in bushes. It's the only trap in the game that not only snares by itself, but also empowers the champion's safety and damage at the same time, giving Caitlyn twice her normal range + a guaranteed headshot (though I think the damage is reduced). At least with Nidalee's traps they don't CC and Nidalee herself has to jump in to use her empowered effects, taking her out of safety while Cait's improves her safety by giving her more range and bursting in a single auto attack instead of a full spell rotation.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 27, 20174 votes

But that is the point of her kit. Shes supposed to be able to siege turrets and poke with her traps. Without her traps she probably wouldnt even be a decent champion. And Caitlyn excels at bursty poke. Its all part of the design of her kit.

Asayake 5150glowApr 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But that is the point of her kit. Shes supposed to be able to siege turrets and poke with her traps. Without her traps she probably wouldnt even be a decent champion. And Caitlyn excels at bursty poke. Its all part of the design of her kit.

Then why does she have so much bursty dps ):

Her Runaans interaction needs to go, it gives her way too much multi-target damage and single target DPS.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 28, 20171 votes

Sadly its going when the runaans change comes anyway, on hits wont work i think (her headshot)

Shuyin178Apr 28, 20173 votes

Old Cait worked just fine without the minefield of traps all over the place. If they nerf Cait's traps then she will be far more balanced.

Asayake 5150glowApr 27, 20172 votes

Strength:

Very high range.

It's kinda covered by other stuff but not specifically, her massive range makes it difficult to get onto her with almost anyone.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoApr 27, 20171 votes

except for the massive amount of champs with gap closers and super mobility

Asayake 5150glowApr 28, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IwfdourG,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-04-27T23:30:46.519+0000)

except for the massive amount of champs with gap closers and super mobility

Which don't exist outside of certain assassins

AgentBlackApr 28, 20171 votes

Uhhh serious?

Asayake 5150glowApr 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Uhhh serious?

About DPS or assassins?

BârdApr 28, 20171 votes

Uh, gap closers are incredibly common.

Aatrox Ahri Akali Alistar Amumu Blitzcrank Camille Corki Diana Ekko Elise Ezreal Fiddlesticks Fiora Fizz Galio Gnar Gragas Graves Hecarim Irelia Ivern JarvanIV Jax Jayce Kalista Kassadin Katarina Kennen Khazix Kindred Kled Leblanc LeeSin Leona Lissandra Lucian Malphite Maokai MasterYi Nautilus Nidalee Nocturne Olaf Pantheon Poppy Quinn Rakan Rammus RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Sejuani Shaco Shen Shyvana Singed Talon Thresh Tristana Trundle Tryndamere TwistedFate Udyr Vayne Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zac Zed Zilean

All of these champions have some fairly good gapclosers in their kit (Ivern an Kalista use their "Gapclosers" to put allies closer to enemies, rather than themselves).

They are hardly a rare gameplay element.

Asayake 5150glowApr 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Uh, gap closers are incredibly common.

All of these champions have some fairly good gapclosers in their kit (Ivern an Kalista use their "Gapclosers" to put allies closer to enemies, rather than themselves).

They are hardly a rare gameplay element.

Ye, but not many of them are dual gapclosers that have 650 range and another ~500 range after Cait E's away.

Most champions will get kited until they get into gapcloser range, use their gapcloser, get E'd, and get kited until they die/their gapcloser comes back up.

There are exceptions with long range gapclosers, but many of those can be bodyblocked, and many of them belong to assassins.

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 27, 20172 votes

I'm a Cait main, so can't pretend I'm not biased, but I don't generally have an issue with her when I play against her. Maybe it's my intimate familiarity with the champion. I'm not sure. But I'm too emotionally attached to the topic to give an opionion.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 28, 20171 votes

Yeah that me tbh xD

HalcyonDwellerApr 28, 20172 votes

Overpowered? I would say no. Annoying covers it generally, but I prefer the terms 'oppressive' and 'anti-fun.'

Here's why: Yordle Snap Traps

Yordle Snap Traps are meant to give her safety and area control. They do this well, they offer her a means of controlling an area, protecting herself from ganks, and zoning the enemy during a siege.

But the problem is that in certain cases (such as when grouped together under the enemies' turret during the laning phase) the traps create a lose-lose situation where the enemy (likely falling behind in power at this point) has to choose whether to abandon the turret to be freely harassed or to defend the turret and attempt to clear minions all the while stepping on traps and taking free harass from Caitlyn.

The other problem I have with the traps is that the gameplay effort they require is very low for Caitlyn and very high for her opponents. They have to constantly play around the traps and not screw up, else they take free harass from Caitlyn.

So the two things about the Yordle Snap-Traps that I have a problem with are:

the false choice given to enemies when they are faced with a minefield of traps under their turret.
the level of interaction and effort required for the enemy is much higher than it is for Caitlyn.

I think the traps should offer more interaction/counterplay of some kind. In their current state she can place a minefield and discourage enemies from even attempting to interact and defend their turret.

So we need to find a way for the traps to still offer Caitlyn the intended protection and synergies, as well as the fun of 'trapping' for enemies, while still offering enemies more options for counterplay.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 28, 20171 votes

I think shes supposed to be able to siege that well, otherwise Riot wouldnt have let that happen. I think they might need to be changed too, but keeping most of their current qualities like sieging, zoning, protection, etc.

HalcyonDwellerApr 28, 20171 votes

What are your thoughts on the specific pain-points I've brought up?

{quoted}

I think shes supposed to be able to siege that well, otherwise Riot wouldn't have let that happen.

Riot lets that happen all the time with various champions. Riot not changing something is not a reason to leave it the way it is. It just means other balance issues are more pressing.

One thing I could see changing is the range at which she can place the traps. If it were shorter, she could still put them under turret but would have to take fair risks to do so. As it stands she can stand near the edge of turret range and drop traps behind the tower. She shouldn't be able to deny people access to clearing the minion wave when it is under their turret, at all in my opinion. But if she's supposed to be that good at sieging then she should have to face more risk for the substantial reward it grants her.

charge attackApr 28, 20172 votes

Both

KaìjuApr 28, 20172 votes

I think she's annoying but not OP. I have played her on and off for years since I started as an off pick when I don't know who to play, and I've never found her to he amazing late game. The reason being that she isn't a hyper carry. The traditional hyper carries are Twitch, Vayne, Kog, Jinx, and Tristana. If we use those five champions as our basis, 80% of them have an attack speed steroid, and the other has an attack reset/mobility spell. Caitlyn not only has no attack speed steroid, she also only scales with 90% attack speed since she is meant to fit the sniper theme and snipers do not traditionally have amazing attack speed, meaning she also gets less out of attack speed items like double zeal ten most ADCs. She has an incredible early game, which if you get fed early game you transition into the mid game well where your team can end early, but when it comes to late game, both Q and R are fairly useless as they lower your DPS greatly. Her W and E remain useful as defense and burst tools but that's because she's a sniper, she keeps the enemy pinned down. With how many other ADCs have attack resets and attack speed steroids, she fails to bring as much DPS as other ADCs, only making up for it with her 1500 crits on traps. But if her situation of having a trap land on a squishy is not met, she doesn't do much. "Her late game is amazing!" Some if you will cry, and to that I say, yeah, she's an ADC, they pretty much all have good late games, even Lucian who will burst down a mage instantly if he manages to get on them and juke out their spells. Yes she has monster crits for nearly 1500 on traps, but outside of that she's fairly average. She's a lane bully. If she has his amazing early game, and an amazing late game with an average mid game, why isn't she needed to the dirt? Runaans and IE will hurt like crazy mid game if you land a trap, so she doesn't do super poorly I would say, why isn't she needed to the ground then? Probably because everyone blows her late game out of proportions. "Oh man her late game traps" don't step in it, they don't move, or have your tank step in it with a shield to eat it up, she doesn't get ER which means rank 5 her traps come back every ten seconds, meaning for all five she has to wait a minute. She's annoying sure but she isn't as bad as everyone thinks. I would rather play Kog then her because I don't find her late game to be that amazing. She's good but she's not a hyper carry.

69469238DEL1Apr 27, 20171 votes

Only annoying if you play her well

KrullyApr 27, 20171 votes

those traps can fuck right off, dumbest thing about her they could have buffed.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 27, 20171 votes

She's obnoxious as hell. But broken? Not really. She can crap on you in end-game (kinda a bit like Vayne does, but not as strong), but, other than that? Pop her traps when she's not nearby and win. Ezpz.

Tobias BracknerApr 28, 20171 votes

Caitlin is the same she's always been.

Real nasty laning phase with alright tools come mid to late.

People just decided to pick her more and actually git gud w/ her.

RengoooApr 28, 20171 votes

Its a shame Riot didn't take her rework she got a while back even further (like a full VGU maybe). It would have been cool to see her sniper fantasy taken further.

Though we have Jhin now who sort of in a weird way occupies the sniper adc role.

AFilthyCaitMainApr 28, 20171 votes

If they ever do rework her i really hope they keep her nonofficial sheriff/sniper feel.

SonasaurousApr 28, 20171 votes

As a poor unknowledgeable bronzie who, when playing adc, alternates between playing as Caitlyn and playing against Caitlyn...

I voted neutral. I personally don't think her entire being is overpowered. Her max level traps are overpowered...in the early game. Sometimes I max w first when I'm against people who just keep walking into traps, cuz you know, might as well get the free damage.

And sure, the traps are the most annoying part of her kit to play against. Like seriously...who is actually complaining about her Q? Her E? Her R? Not a lot of people, most complaints are aimed at her traps.

Which is why i voted neutral. Because while the traps are a massive source of damage and they can help Caitlyn sort of keep up with the hypercarries late game (in terms of single target damage)...they're also easily avoidable. And even if you step on one and Caitlyn isn't around or in range to proc the damage...then like, that's just a waste on Caitlyn's part. And using the traps for vision basically negates her chance at procing the damage. Literally the most useful time to use the traps is during laning phase, and that's also when they're the most annoying.

So yeah. Neutral.

I'll wait for some silver or higher player to explain how my bronze opinion is incorrect.

Thresh Outta FuxApr 28, 20171 votes

Weaknesses -Cant handle getting bursted (Syndra, Lux, Zed, etc) -Can get shut down hard in lane -Falls off mid game if she cant get ahead -Gets outscaled by other ADCs late game -Her net has a higher cooldown (16 / 14.5 / 13 / 11.5 / 10) -Cant handle getting cc'ed and locked down (Like against a Jax who can keep catching back up to her and stunning her) -Runs out of mana quickly early if youre not careful -Doesnt do well against sustain lanes (Soraka, Nami, etc) -Has nothing to fall back on when shes ran out of her safety tools

You mean the weaknesses shared by literally every other champion in the game? Other than, say, Tanks and Yasuo?

SohleksApr 28, 20171 votes

Overpowered on the champion level. Imagine once itemization goes into her favor item 3031

TheSnackenApr 28, 20171 votes

As a Cait main... I think she's a bit OP. That could be a result of environment, but I think her strengths are just too many at the moment. Her strengths-to-weaknesses ratio is about right, but her laning phase taps into those strengths a bit too well. She has an incredibly reliable, punishing harass pattern with nothing to really hold it back. The ADC's that should form her strongest counters,like Jhin and Varus, just got nerfed, and itemization is sitting pretty well in her favor. She could use a power drain for her lv 1-4 area.

Shrek LuigiApr 28, 20171 votes

She can be pretty annoying in an unfavourable matchup because of her traps and her AA range, but all of her skills can be avoided and her only mobility skill operates on a very high CD. She's fine--there are marksmen who are currently way more overtuned than Cait lol.

ChristmasTimeJun 26, 20171 votes

I mean this is just wrong lmao....

Anthony0603Jul 1, 20171 votes

I would like to say. Name one ADC that doesn't have these weaknesses? Syndra/lux/zed one shot all adcs. Caitlyn, along with few other adcs actually have a dash to avoid the initial lockdown though. Every adc can be shut down in lane. Shut down a draven and watch him tilt to oblivion. Shut down a vayne and watch her shoot wet noodles at your team getting one shot repeatedly before she even catches a glimpse of late game. Caitlyn gets outscaled by maybe... 3 adcs. Vayne, Tristana, and Twitch. She happens to be a hard lane counter to all 3. So a good caitlyn will avoid being outscaled by just stomping lane. Her net cd... it's a gap closer/escape tool/cc/burst. The fact its cd is that low is crazy enough as is. Play ANY single adc in the entirety of league and lemme know how you feel about cc lock... caitlyn can trap, net to peel for herself unlike many other adcs. But at the end of the day, cc will shut any squishy adc down. Runs out of mana quickly... I mean... barely. as long as you aren't spamming rank 1 peacemakers you should be fine, her base regen is pretty nice and her traps cost next to nothing. That said, take any adc that has poke mechanics and we could say the same thing. Heck if i spam auto/tumble/condemn combo with vayne in lane ill run outta mana too. Caitlyn is one of the few ADC's who can do well vs sustain lanes. She has the tools to auto attack poke without receiving any punishment. Take a shorter range carry that has to trade damage and watch it get healed back up. Caitlyn can give damage without trading it, so even if it gets healed up she hasn't really lost anything. She actually deals really well with sustain lanes compared to other adcs. Not to mention she has one of the highest burst combos of any adc if you land your full combo. Pair that with a support that has cc, and no amount of healing is really gonna matter... Hmm she has 3 traps at rank 1 spell 5 at max rank, a net, possible cleanse/qss, flash, heal. just as many safety tools if not more then the next adc. I'm pretty sure you engage a varus without a flash and he's going to cry, since that happens to be his ONLY safety tool.

I feel these aren't even Caitlyn specific weaknesses, let alone weaknesses at all. If I had to name a weakness for Cait, I'd say its tanks. Caitlyn is inherently reliant on burst and crits. when a lot of defenses are built, her strengths become less effective. It's one of the main reasons I don't play much Caitlyn. You can stomp lane, then spend 3 hours (obviously exaggerating) trying to kill their front line. Even that though, isnt a complete weakness, because of her range she is able to stay far enough back while still whittling those tanks down. Making her extremely hard to punish in teamfights if she is on her game. I think it should go back to Caitlyn having to lay a single trap. or... mayyyybe 2. But having 5 traps lined across the front of your turret as she sieges away from an already difficult distance to reach, its just not right. No other adc can control an entire lane like that. Jhin has to ult to do it, and even then he has to be aware of his positioning and aim his abilities. She is pretty broken right now and is perma banned from me, she isn't fun to play against whatsoever. I've missed enough farm just trying to weave my way in and out of her trap minefield, praying to the autopathing gods that it lets me walk "in between" minions instead of around them. Take away her peacemaker or something, make her give up waveclear for being able to control your position in wave or something. Make it like a skill shot single target snipe, same range as peacemaker but that can't go through minions. She could still hit you with it in traps, still snipe you with it over walls, but it would give SOME room for counterplay rather then dancing through minions praying for autopathing to bless you hoping your support brought 8000 potions to eat the traps for you. She is not in a healthy spot right now at all, and I can't wait til I can actually focus my bans back on backline divers/cc gods rather then wasting it on a Caitlyn that shouldnt be as strong as she is.