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The Problem with Yorick's reworked ghouls

Malicious Metal··102 votes·7,257 views

After playing the reworked Yorick a ton on the PBE I've come to the conclusion that he perfectly delivers on the thematic side of things. His voice over, his abilities, it all carries weight and really feels like Yorick.

But there's a very major problems with his Mistwalkers. It's not their AI since Yorick's no real commander like Mordekaiser but rather a Shepherd of souls.

It's that they're soo UNIMPACTFUL.

The buildup to them is great, digging graves only to raise the dead and storm the enemy's gates. Too bad that these forlorn souls are only over glorified caster minions. They're too squishy and the entire buildup to them feels like a real waste seeing them die to one Morde E or simply die to ONE tower shot.

They desperately need to get resistances in order to become useful beyond the level 3 cheese. They currently scale with 15 % of Yorick's max HP but with NONE of his resistances.

I suggest giving them a percentage of the Shepherd's resistances and MAYBE buff their Hp a bit to make them a bit more useful and not simply different colored minions. Make them feel a bit more powerful, they certainly look the part of vengeful spirits.

83 Comments

MatthewRT244 votes

the vo is crap until they add "you will remember yorick mori"

Malicious Metal59 votes

"Remember my name, for one day I might not.."

Marshbouy29 votes

"mundo say is own name a lot, in case he forget! that has happened before."

Melledoneus2 votes

Illaoi "My name is Illaoi."

Dr Poro1 votes

and a 100 percent reason to remember the name

Hella Kaiser1 votes

"Death is the gift I offer"

TheOvermind4 votes

"Death is only the beginning " "Life slips away" "Answers lie beneath the dirt"

Old yorick VO was vastly superior

Malicious Metal5 votes

"More, you could be so much more..." "I am enough!"

The new one's pretty frigging great too.

Totally dig his accent, sounds very shakespearean.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

I think you got one of the Maiden's lines mixed up with Syndra!

"Your human form is so confining. You could be infinite" "I am enough"

Zarvanis2 votes

Totally dig his accent, sounds very shakespearean.

https://media.giphy.com/media/OfjtQiUwp1kOc/giphy.gif?noredirect

rtbf2256182411 votes

The first one is kinda obvious, the second too a bit.

SpecterVonBaren12 votes

So let me get this straight, Malzahar can just press E W and get a metric shit ton of voidlings in a few seconds that are hard to kill that will maul down anyone unlucky enough to be his target while Yorick has to work really hard to build up to getting his minions only for them to die like Heimer turrets after the 20 minute mark? Sounds fair.....

La Barbotte1 votes

yeah but one of them got a long ass point and click suppress and a silence... oh wait, also malzahar

Tychusfindlay9199 votes

Looks like yorick is gunna be a juggy, so hes gunna spam health but resistances might be a bit lacking.

Probably shouldnt have any resistance scaling and should instead just up the %hp scaling to 20 or 25% if need be since that will be more helpful and keep things simpler.

invisiblecat15 votes

I have only seen him be played, but Yorick's old ghouls used to help alot with slows, damage, healing, and speed, but these new ones just seem to be useless

WoonStruck5 votes

The new ones add a lot of damage atm if you land E. A lot. Combine that with your ult and her summoned ghouls...you pretty much can't 1v1 him if you can't easily get rid of them.

But if you can, he can't 1v1 you. Its pretty stupid. We don't need another Malzahar, especially when he's melee, meaning he has to get to someone in the first place to do much.

Old Yorick was broken. You shouldn't be gauging what the new Yorick can do based off of the old concept.

BananaSlayerAMO5 votes

Yes, AOE abilities are way too effective against Yorick compared to single target ones

Marshbouy4 votes

I think riot might eventually shift some power to his ghouls, but doing so could be catastrophic. He was gutted because of them after all...

WoonStruck36 votes

That's because they could be cast at any time, gave him massive mitigation/damage multipliers, healed him, slowed, sped him up...yeah.

Basically everything you could want if he's ever in a decent enough spot.

It made it so you literally couldn't lane against him as the majority of champions.

The new Yorick has no such problems. It takes much longer build up to the 4 ghouls, and you have much more warning. Not only that, but you can't actually control the ghouls unless you land E. Old Yorick was fire and forget.

Marshbouy5 votes

let me emphasize the COULD. im not saying it will be catastrophic, im saying it could be.

WoonStruck19 votes

It wouldn't be catastrophic...lol

That's such an absurd overstatement to be making in this case.

With the effort that it takes to get them out, they SHOULD be significantly tankier via resistances. The only question is whether or not their damage should be as high as it is.

We don't need another Malzahar that's over-dependent on their summoned minions to do any form of damage. Something closer to Elise's spiderlings would be much better.

Marshbouy2 votes

It could be catastrophic if they were too powerful. Imagine a lane where nothing happens all day but yorick Qs 4 times then engages on you with a minion hoard that got too strong because riot made them too powerful. i know for a goddam fact that the next day after the yorick release the gameplay boards (most likely including you) would be screaming about how powerful rework yorick was.

WoonStruck14 votes

  1. I don't generally make balance complaints. Way to try to attack me because your argument is poor. You're basically saying Riot shouldn't buff anything because "it could be catastrophic".

  2. Yorick's all-in with ghouls is already a thing and wouldn't change with %bonus resistances from Yorick. It only really works before 6 due to their base damage.

The point is late game scaling. They'll be far more difficult to get out then, and more worthless than Malz's old voidlings currently. Considering his Q, passive, and E all revolve around them...they should probably be worth something later in the game.

Marshbouy1 votes

I am done responding to you. You are biased beyond belief. I fucking hope that riot gives the ghouls scaling resistances. I want to see you eat your own fucking words.

WoonStruck13 votes

Biased? Okay. I don't even play Yorick, nor do I intend to.

You're the one refusing to listen to a solid argument based on unfounded conjecture. But leave because you can't make an argument. Doesn't make any difference to me.

Maybe you didn't notice that I said that their damage should be lowered as well.

Marshbouy2 votes

What do you not understand here? Can you not comprehend that having 4 tanky minions jump on your ass because the enemy played a minigame is not a fun thing to happen in a game? Can you not comprehend that if they were too powerful then anyone with sub par waveclear would become useless in the top lane against him? Can you not even consider, for one moment, that riot doesn't want to release a rework with a 50% banrate because his mimigame made him too strong?

WoonStruck16 votes

{quoted}

I am done responding to you.

A liar too? Scandalous.

But I guess we should just remove enemy champions because its not fun getting hit by them, right?

Gee, its almost like we don't want Yorick to be useless if he's near any of the over-abundant AoE champs in the game. Not to mention Hydra being a decent rush on many fighters. There's a reason Elise's spiders got damage reduction. Hers are much easier to use too.

Tankiness isn't what would make Yorick pick/ban based on ghouls. Its damage. Which I already said should probably be lowered.

Schàdenfreude11 votes

I believe, ghouls should only gain resistances at higher levels. That's Marshbouy's concern here, having ghouls too strong in the early games would probably give Yorick too big of an advantage. However, having resistance at higher levels actually allows ghouls to be of some use later on.

Besides, you only get items later in the game, and so ghouls won't benefit much from resistances early game.

WoonStruck13 votes

Marshbouy is needlessly concerned that any modification that makes them worth something would somehow break yorick as a champion.

No matter what, if you dodge E, you can kill the ghouls safely, essentially. There's already intrinsic counterplay to them. This is just making it so they aren't useless vs AoE/ADCs.

Remember, Yorick is melee. He can't do anything to you if you dodge E, basically. You can walk out of W at any time. Its very easy to see coming. And he has no way to slow you now if he didn't land E outside of itemization.

Early game he is a non-factor if you just dodge E. You can freely kill ghouls during this time as long as you look out for his W and E. Ghouls will simply attack minions before he lands E.

** That said, nobody said the resistances can't scale.** Also remember that Yorick will likely not be building resistances early. He needs a Trinity Force to really do anything, otherwise another AD item that he'd be even weaker while building. His E is literally the only thing you have to worry about from him in the early game, and its because ghoul damage needs to be reduced, mostly in regards to early game. They start with absurdly high base AD for minions.

Schàdenfreude5 votes

This is basically correct. But we mustn't stick with the "just dodge it" mentality. When he does get the advantage of landing his E, it shouldn't be too punishing. By this I mean that the ghouls shouldn't do all the work. You need to be able to combo all your skills together in order to sucessfully kill the enemy, so you also have to have some graves and your wall must surround the enemy.

WoonStruck10 votes

Currently they do all the work through damage when they jump. I believe they should be more of an attrition threat than 'Hey, you don't have AoE? You lose because of overwhelming damage.'

Like I said, we don't need another Malzahar.

Reduce their damage, add resistances similar to what MM suggested.

Marshbouy1 votes

But I guess we should just remove enemy champions because its not fun getting hit by them, right?

No. Getting hit by a swarm of 4 enemies + minion aggro + a champion is considered unfun. Good strawman though.

Gee, its almost like we don't want Yorick to be useless if he's near any of the over-abundant AoE champs in the game.

that's why he should have power in his base kit and ultimate. Not his easy to AOE clear minions.

Not to mention Hydra being a decent rush on many fighters.

if the minions have scaling resistances and HP then hydra shouldn't be a big deal for them.

CrazyBigfoot2815 votes

so this what happens when kindred fights with each other

JedenVojak4 votes

The problem is that, with old Yorick every ability he had shot out ghouls so he could always have ghouls out. But it seems like the new Yorick basically never has ghouls except when his ult is up or once every 8 minutes or so. So he's basically not a ghoul master at all now.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

Every 8 minutes? Dude, use your Q...

The 2nd Horseman3 votes

It would make more sense to give them aoe resistances I think. Also giving an ability to summon durable minions to fight the tower directly seems a bit risky

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

They should at least soak 2 shots like most other pets (Malzahar W I believe does) especially since they get targeted first by the tower. He's a splitpusher with minions....cool, except 1-2 ghouls die before they even touch the tower.

Partholonian1 votes

Even if the ghouls don't touch the tower, soaking those shots makes the actual minions live longer, which in turn lets Yorick keep hitting the turret longer before he has to back off to avoid taking tower shots himself.

Arakadia3 votes

I wish his ghouls said things every so often like in "Mastermind" I think that game is called.

Something like "Does he even know where he's going?"

Sire Hippington3 votes

The mistwalkers beeing weak isn't the only issue. HE also lacks acces to them outside of lane, so unless they get **really **tanky, they will hardly be impactfull outside of lane/splitpush as the only way to creat them in a teamfight is the ult.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes
  1. Dying from one turret shot is intended for most summons
  2. Being manageable by the enemy through focus is necessary, the trade-off being that you focus a minion instead of a champion.
  3. They need AoE resistance like Shack's boxes if they don't have it yet tho.
Over Innsmouth3 votes

Hear hear. If Yorick is going to be the Bruiser minion master (compare Malzahar and Elise who are a high-damage mage and a good example of an assassin with utility), his minions should be accordingly bruiser-y.

BurnSnake2 votes

What's that quote from?

"remember my name, for one day i might not."

Veltox6 votes

I think it's a reference to his old quote 'You will remember Yorick Mori'.

Ðelofasht2 votes

The issue is not with how strong or not the ghouls are or are not, but with the strict adherence to having minions or monsters (or champions) dying near him. This means jungle fights are terrible without his Ult, no team fighting in the river for Yorick if he has used his Ult in the last 3 minutes. That is a rough place to be actually, almost every other champion is free of such concerns really.

He really could benefit from having graves spawn when his W is destroyed or dissipates, or make his W provide an anti dash effect so people actually have to destroy it. I like the former solution because getting graves from a wall of souls being destroyed feels good, there could definitely be an issue with too many ghouls in lane but a huge increase in mana cost on his W would greatly balance that. This would give him a way to get his damage going after a few seconds nearly on demand without having to burn his Ult anytime he is denied minions or monsters in his area.

Basically Yorick being leashed to stuff dying feels very bad, I had always said that about every proposition of the entire graves idea for every rework suggestion provided by players over the years. I only hope Riot will see my concerns and give it some though, I would gladly trade some scaling from his Q to have a more cohesive kit, W currently feels really odd in his kit, and does not feel like it belongs with the rest of the kit in a lot of ways. There are a lot of other possible solutions that could all be good as well, from giving the W a slight pull in mechanism as a follow up skill, afore mentioned grounding, healing scaling on Q with max health or something. Lots of potential, but it may be too late right now.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

The issue is not with how strong or not the ghouls are or are not, but with the strict adherence to having minions or monsters (or champions) dying near him. This means jungle fights are terrible without his Ult, no team fighting in the river for Yorick if he has used his Ult in the last 3 minutes. That is a rough place to be actually, almost every other champion is free of such concerns really.

Lots of champions don't want to teamfight without their ults, they're not all Nidalee or Kassadin. Illaoi has a very similar issue (unless you have a quite long uncontested time to set up).

Although if his CD is literally 3 minutes, that seems kind of insane.

Basically Yorick being leashed to stuff dying feels very bad

I think it's appropriate, but may tie him too strongly to lanes. A champion that can only splitpush is not healthy.

Ðelofasht1 votes

{quoted}

Lots of champions don't want to teamfight without their ults, they're not all Nidalee or Kassadin. Illaoi has a very similar issue (unless you have a quite long uncontested time to set up).

Although if his CD is literally 3 minutes, that seems kind of insane.

I think it's appropriate, but may tie him too strongly to lanes. A champion that can only splitpush is not healthy.

While it is true that most want their ult, few are as severely crippled by not having it, without a prolonged engagement in an area where something is dying near him, Yorick is losing out on hundreds of dps in a fight. That could be as little as 400 damage in a 5 second fight to potentially several thousands of damage in a much longer fight. That is extremely bad for him and will not be fun, better to avoid a teamfight if you do not have Ult or graves setup. Which means he will just go off to split push or be killing raptors to get graves before coming into a fight. . . Not what you want when you do not have time to wait 15 to 20 seconds for the Yorick to get to the team with ghouls.

Also, his Ult lasts indefinitely and has a 160/150/140 sec CD, it pushes slow so if used in the last couple minutes it is likely to be off pushing still or just died and need to wait that full CD before it is ready again, Maiden is not going to be up too often in a game.

crippler382 votes

I'm all for a percentage of his resistances, I'd hate for 80% of yorick's hp to be running around though from the 4 ghouls that'd be kinda terrifying with a resistance buff

Although might make full hp yorick kinda fun to have immortal ghouls, maybe make their stats a percentage of yorick's flat out?

EDIT: Idea, let him kill his own wall for graves, each pip of life on it is worth a grave for him to summon a ghoul from. That would add some counterplay to it by letting high attack speed champions pop the wall fast while also letting yorick fight outside of lanes where he has graves more easily.

BurnSnake1 votes

Something about yorik not many people might see-

you can have a lot of ghouls up if you can place the graves right. basically you can take advantage of the size of the circles the ghouls are resurrected in. If you divide the graves across the lane and up and down it you can get 2 or even 3 batches of ghouls in the span of a few seconds.

This might balance the ghouls more.

Jaghatai2 votes

You can only have 4 graves at a time. Yorick stops producing graves once there is 4. If you walk to far away, the graves disappear.

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