Boards›Gameplay

Why do new players play their first few games of ranked in mid/high silver or low gold?

Ramen226··5 votes·579 views

I'm getting so tired of players without runes or masteries coming into ranked games and getting stuck on my team and there's nothing i can do about it. Who you play your first few games of ranked with should be determined by you mmr, win rate, etc and not just an autosystem. It just makes it harder for people in silver and below to climb out because nobody taught this kid about runes.

here's my rebuttals before you say them "Just carry them" - It's impossible. Have your jungler go 0/8 in the first 20 minutes of the game and come talk to me about carrying. I can solo float an afk Brand and 0/6 lee sin into the 40 minute mark but i cant stop them from running into the enemy team, missing smite, and dying to the caitlyn that's doing just as bad at 0/5. "It's just a likely to get them on the enemy team as your own." - yeah maybe. I've heard the statistic that there's a 4/9 chance of them on your team vs a 5/9 chance on theirs. But if you've done the math you'll understand that that means i have to play out 9 games for it to even out because they'll have one more uncarryable player on their team than i will. I've stopped playing ranked for the most part because i just cant take how hard it is to simply play with these kinds of people. tl;dr - sure that makes sense if i play a crap ton of games, but i don't so your point is mute. "Well how did the top players get out then? Just get gud." - This just doesn't make sense. Watch any top player smurf and start a new account and they don't get anywhere near silver because they start out in plat. EVEN SO, during the reset of season 7 several top streamers played AND LOST game in bronze and silver. If the top .01% of players can't carry every game then how the hell doesn anyone expect me to.

Alright qq post just about done. There just really needs to be a better measure of who is/isn't fit to play ranked. And although that may be hard, it shouldn't be too challenging to start with the people that don't even own runes. Fml

7 Comments

freeloader251 votes

Its due to the default MMR. You have to understand that the important thing about the ranking system is NOT the rank that is displayed on your profile. The only thing that matters is the MMR or ELO (its the same). When a player enters ranked games, he needs a default value. This default value is around mid-low silver MMR and with the current systems design (every game grants the same amount of MMR to the winning team as it takes from the losing team) this default value will also be the average MMR.

This leads to what you talked about at the average/default level of play (mid-low silver). This cant be changed if you dont change the ranked system as a whole. The MMR value doesnt take into account your "own" skill level, but your skill level compared to all the other players that play ranked. changing the default MMR value therefore wouldnt change anything aswell because your skill level would still be around the default MMR value.

I understand that its frustrating to deal with this issue, but it cant be changed until riot decides to dump the MMR system (which i hope they dont).

Ramen2261 votes

But why. Why should i have to deal with players who are brand spanking new to the game. And why is mmr not even slightly calculated outside ranked games.

They need to prove that they are capable of basic functions such as using runes maybe? (which in my experience is all that you need to get out of bronze) base mmr shouldnt be at mid silver it should be at mid bronze. Bronze you can carry, silver is where the players can spam abilities well enough and it's 10x harder to carry a player on your team thats when playing vs silvers than when vs bronze.

Put new players at the lowest point until they prove to the system that they're capable of playing league.

freeloader251 votes

If you start to let normal games or flex q or whatever influence the ranked MMR you end up with a total mess. How should it be calculated? The average MMR would change which is a problem because the MMR system doesnt work as precise as before anymore, mostly because you struggle to make meaningful statements about the skill level of a player compared to other players if you dont know the average MMR.

base mmr shouldnt be at mid silver it should be at mid bronze.

This wouldnt help. Please read what i already wrote. The base MMR is, by definition of the MMR system, the average MMR aswell. And because the MMR system doesnt measure your skill, but your skill compared to all other players, this change wouldnt achieve anything at all.

Example how the default MMR functions and why ranking means nothing: you have a default MMR of 1300. Therefore the average MMR among all players is 1300. Now you play slightly above average at a skill level of lets say 1400 MMR which happens to be your MMR value (because you play slightly above the default/average level of all players this value might be accurate).

When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900). BUT: compared to all other players, you STILL only play slightly above average. Since you designed a new default value and therefore average value, your MMR is no longer 1400, but in the new system its more like 1000.

All you achieved with this change is a shift in ladder rankings (if you dont adjust the relationship between ranking-MMR). Then not 30% or whatever it is now are in bronze but all the players who play below the rank that belongs to the current average MMR (somewhere around mid-low silver, which is 75% or so).

Always remember: MMR ONLY measures your skill compared to all other ranked players. If you put all 200 challenger players and no one else in the current ranked system, they would all hover somewhere around bronze-gold because their skill compared to the other 199 players isnt that much higher or lower.

And as i already said, you just sadly play close to the average skill level which leads to you having around the same MMR as a new lvl 30 account. The only thing you can do to change that is to change your own MMR.

Ramen2261 votes

What you're saying makes no sense. It doesn't shift the entire ladder it only shifts where player new to ranked specifically start out in their promotions specifically.

I'm not talking about players new to the game or new to that ranked season. I'm specifically taking about what elo a person plays at when they do their first promotional series.

It only affects accounts that are playing their promotional series the first time

freeloader251 votes

it makes perfect sense but again you didnt read what i wrote. i already commented on what you said now:

It only affects accounts that are playing their promotional series the first time

No it doesnt. Here my answer from above:

When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900).

Of course it wouldnt happen in an instant that the average MMR becomes 900. But there are resets at the end of every season for example. Those resets are orientated at the DEFAULT MMR. this means: if youre at your true MMR at the end of the season, the reset will put you somewhere between the DEFAULT MMR and your actual MMR. In case of a hard reset, it actually becomes the DEFAULT MMR.

And again from my other post: IF you start to give different default MMR values to different account, you shift the average MMR around and therefore make the MMR system instable because it needs a stable average MMR to function properly.

If you have 1000 Players which started with 1300 default MMR (you again sit at 1400 MMR in this example) and then start to give new ranked accounts another default MMR, the average MMR will converge to the NEW DEFAULT MMR OVER TIME. If 1000 new players started playing ranked with your new default MMR (lets say 900 MMR), the new average MMR will be 1100. If you then do a soft reset at the end of the season, the new average MMR is 1000. But: you STILL play only slightly above average and therefore will lose MMR until you are close to your ranking in the new system you designed by shifting numbers around. You will lose MMR until you are at your skill level COMPARED TO THE OTHER PLAYERS, here maybe something around 1070 because right now the average MMR is 1000. This continues until the average MMR is pretty much 900, until this point your own MMR will decrease until you are in the exact same situation you are in right now!

And then? you want to lower the default MMR until it reaches 0? and then? you increase everyones MMR by 2000? You realise that you had to rework the league system all 2 weeks if you do this?

Oh and before you suggest that resets dont orientate at the default MMR: this would inflate or deflate the MMR aswell because both variants would change the average MMR with every reset.

Ramen2261 votes

But it doesn't wtf.

It lowers the mmr by 900 ON YOUR FIRST FEW GAMES OF YOUR PLACEMENTS

You're saying that because players have a lower starting point means that they will have a lower ending point which makes 0 sense. Having THE FIRST GAME OR 2 of placement series at a bronze 3 to 1 level is just plain sense. If they can't win vs. the worst players in the game then why the fuck should they be in silver. For whatever reason you just don't understand i am strictly talking about the first 2 games of promotional series at most to test if they understand basic principles of league of legends.

Shifting new players default mmr to that of a new player is the most common sense sense response to a competitive ladder that you can make. But for SOME REASON you disagree.

When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900).

No, it wouldn't. And there's no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. Making players start from the bottom doesn't mean the average player's skill level is at the bottom. But making sure that they understand basic fundamentals of league of legends can ONLY be accomplished by lowering mmr.

The whole point of base mmr is supposed to be a STARTING point from which the players can BEGIN their climb.

It's not supposed to be where average skill level is It's supposed to be a starting point

I don't know how many ways i can phrase this before you understand it.

New players should not be put at the average skill level to get an accurate rating on how good they are.

freeloader251 votes

For whatever reason you just don't understand i am strictly talking about the first 2 games of promotional series at most to test if they understand basic principles of league of legends.

You want 2 games to decide if a player is able to play ranked?... so... since the ranked system ONLY considers wins and losses and not your performance you want people who lost both games but did well in both games to be dropped down to mid bronze elo? you think this is a good idea? you want to leave the sinkhole thats silver 3-5 and instead want to create something far worse at mid-high bronze? How should the MMR be calculated? The MMR decides about the matchmaking, NOTHING ELSE. if you want new players to play in those lower elo games, you NEED TO GIVE THEM LOWER MMR BECAUSE THE RANKED SYSTEM NEEDS A VALUE TO COMPARE THE PLAYERS AND MATCH THEM. if you just throw them in super low elo games but keep the default elo, the elo gains and losses of that game would be completely retarded. or you want them to change their MMR from 900 to ~1300 in 2 games?... uhm... ok? I understood what you said, but showed you in 10 ways how its not possible without screwing up the whole ranked system.

You're saying that because players have a lower starting point means that they will have a lower ending point which makes 0 sense.

not in terms of skill. im saying that the MMR of the people who already played ranked would decrease over time, but this would happen to every player. So their relative ranking compared to anyone else would stay the same, only the MMR would change. but i start to see why you think what i say makes no sense if youre not able to understand it at all. I try a last time with a hint: Every ELO system does nothing but shifting the default values around and divides them among all players until the values reflect the strength of any player compared to everyone else.

Shifting new players default mmr to that of a new player is the most common sense sense response to a competitive ladder that you can make. But for SOME REASON you disagree.

it doesnt work. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating.

No, it wouldn't. And there's no evidence to support that claim whatsoever.

maths? wtf? i even gave you an example. just because you dont understand thats in fact evidence it doesnt magically disappear.

The whole point of base mmr is supposed to be a STARTING point from which the players can BEGIN their climb.

No. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating.

New players should not be put at the average skill level to get an accurate rating on how good they are.

They should because its the best way to have a consistent ranked ladder. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating.

Im done at this point, you honestly dont even want to understand how the system works anymore and went full brainless rage mode or something.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Ramen226

Why is it that when I'm on a hot streak my teams get progressively worse?
Gameplay66 comments
67
votes
Bored of losing to players 10 times better than me
Gameplay86 comments
60
votes
What if turrets slowed champions on hit?
Gameplay36 comments
43
votes
I understand elo hell might be a thing
Gameplay37 comments
40
votes
The total number of team compositions in league of legends.
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous28 comments
24
votes
WHY CANT I MUTE PINGS
Player Behavior24 comments
13
votes