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Does Skarner live up to his champion vision?

Malicious Metal··84 votes·6,529 views

Skarner has been one of my favorite champions since season 3, having witnessed all the ups and downs of the Crystal Vanguards. Perma slowing Q, heal on Q, Q giving MS and AS, AA's reducing his abilities' cool downs and his discount Kennen passive.

He was reworked three times already and just doesn't seem to find any popularity unless he's blatantly OP and his kit is being changed every season albeit mostly unsuccessfully.

He has the same Problem Mordekaiser had or even still has to an extent; A mismatch between Lore, thematics and character with their respective kits.

So what is Skarner supposed to be? This is a question even Riot seems to ask themselves, without getting a real answer. They did classify him as a Juggernaut, a slow moving, lumbering monster of a champion. Extremely lethal when up close but lacking mobility and crowd control.... Yet Skarner's by far one of the stickiest champions around with his W speed buff, his E providing a great slow AND a stun as well as having a suppression on his Impale. Not only this but being able to trigger his spires makes him gain up to 150 movement speed and him usually building trinity force and a dead man's plate makes him hard to escape from without burning flash or using kassadin-levels of mobility.

Does this mean Skarner's supposed to be a tank? Judging by his lore (And god damn is the current one lackluster D_D ) Skarner's the only awake member of his race, the Bracken, a scorpion-like race of sentient crystal beings. He's described as being a creature of both intelligence, wisdom and yet deadly precision, fury and anger. He's the Crystal Vanguard! He's the pinnacle of his race, wise due to centuries of experience, a deep understanding of nature and magic due to the Bracken's connection to crystals and primal earth magic. But he's not a scholar, he's a fighter! He's powerful, his monstrous body armed literally to the teeth with crystal claws, eight legs, razor-like fangs and a deadly stinger.

Skarner is duality, a creature as wise as the most seasoned scholar but as deadly as a natural disaster, primal power of the earth made flesh(?).

Skarner's current kit doesn't fit the Juggernaut bill For a Juggernaut Skarner brings too much mobility and CC to the table. Yet it's what most people like about him. He's a balls of stats that brute-forces his way into a team charging you making you either try to run or die in the grasp of his crystal claws.

I know not many Skarner players would agree with me on this one but he should be slower, yet extremely deadly. Scorpions are highly territorial creatures that defend their habitat with powerful claws and deadly venom, yet Skarner doesn't utilize his stinger nearly as much as he should. Larger Scorpions tend to use their claws as shields, using their armored plates as defense while waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Their claws parting as they strike with their stinger; Precise, swiftly, deadly.

Does Skarner need a fourth rework? I love Skarner, I play him quite a lot since I just adore his voiceover and thematics. His play style of a Juggernaut also suits me as a player but that's beside the point. His kit has remained mostly the same since his release, only having gotten a few additional effects added or removed but q's still an AoE, W a shield, E a skillshot and R a point and click suppression.

Skarner's one of those champions that can't be strong or he'd piss people off due to him being really durable, dishing out a lot of damage but even manages to stick to the most evasive targets.

So is he bad? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Yet he fails to deliver on his thematics and voice, his kit is a real hassle to balance and it being kinda plain and "boring" makes him less attractive to pick up and play for people who don't really care about his themes and character. His unique aspects aren't as "cool" as other champions, which makes him maintain a really low play rate.

Skarner will always have a soft spot in my hueart but him missing his kind is a problem that runs deeper than him being "bad". It's a fundamental problem with his kit, his themes and character clashing and not delivering while being not exactly very pleasing to a vast majority of the player base.

http://orig02.deviantart.net/1fac/f/2011/348/2/c/skarner_by_nepharus-d4j5dup.png

59 Comments

ingrid bergman24 votes

Malicious Metal, you always have the best posts about champions and the thematic elements in their kits. I played some Skarner pre-Juggernaut rework, and I felt that he was mostly underwhelming, but after the update, my jaw dropped at how much damage, CC, and tankiness that he provided for his team (His 80 something win rate proving he was a strong pick) and seeing those 2 Skarners, I got the illusion that his kit could never be balanced. I think that it would be a good thing for Skarner if Riot wanted the thematic elements to fit with his kit, a Sion-ish rework would be good. One that made him more interesting and established him as a champion.

SpecterVonBaren10 votes

He was a lot stronger before the juggernaut rework. :(

DeusVult3 votes

being able to stun up to 5 enemies by simply using Q in a fight to get his old crystal poison stacks was the best

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Finally! Someone else that gets it!

flibitydoo1 votes

Actually, in order to stun a target (with skarner's old crystalized sting spell), **you have to land an auto attack on the final stack ** you can use your q to get the stacks up (and your E I think contributes to the stack count), but you cannot stun a whole team using q alone. Which means you need to individually auto-attack 5 times, on 5 different dudes to get the stun off.

I know this because Skarner was my go to jungler for pre-season 5, he could clear with full health and pull off a level 3 gank (with red buff of course, you have very little cc pre-6), and one of the things I distinctively remember, is that you cannot stun the side minions on red buff/blue buff unless you auto them. Part of why the memory is so ingrained was because of that one hilarious gank I pulled off with Skarner where I crept into a sidebush at botlane once I was level 6. I knew it wasn't warded cause I had raptor buff and it didn't activate meaning they had no wards in that bush (PS raptor buff best buff), and then all of a sudden the enemy jinx comes out of the other bush and walks within 200 units of me (I'm still waiting in the bush of course), and then I ult her and she died and it was hilarious because of how surprising it must have been to have a skarner just show up out of nowhere.

Phoenix Kotori 4 votes

I liked his previous rework a lot more honestly :/

Malicious Metal2 votes

I loved how often he used his stinger to be honest. "My stinger is ready~~"

Critmaster Garen5 votes

a mediocre speed buff doesnt make him mobile. almost every single champ in the game has some form of mobility by now, and most of them are hard gap closers, dashes or something similar.

imo he fits the juggernaut bill pretty well, as he has to walk into melee range to be effective. but once hes there, hes dealing a ton of damage while being hard to get off. i mean throw a slow into his face froma distance while he activates his w and hes not getting close enough to impale or do much at all.

the other juggernauts work similar, in that they mostly need the help of a tank or some other cc machine to initiate for them to get into the enemy team. but once theyre there, they wreak havoc. the idea is that the enemy needs to try and prevent him to get into melee against vulnerable targets at all.

i mean once darius is in the face of someone, hes pretty hard to disengage from without strong escape or heavy peel. his w slow and the hook make him rather sticky.

garen has more trouble sticking, due to the lack of any proper cc except a short silence, but moves in a bit faster due to his q.

mundo is pretty much the same. difficult to get into the proper spot, but his point blank cleavers make him pretty sticky once hes in your face.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IqFofiKg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-29T13:55:53.380+0000)

a mediocre speed buff doesnt make him mobile. almost every single champ in the game has some form of mobility by now, and most of them are hard gap closers, dashes or something similar.

imo he fits the juggernaut bill pretty well, as he has to walk into melee range to be effective. but once hes there, hes dealing a ton of damage while being hard to get off. i mean throw a slow into his face froma distance while he activates his w and hes not getting close enough to impale or do much at all.

the other juggernauts work similar, in that they mostly need the help of a tank or some other cc machine to initiate for them to get into the enemy team. but once theyre there, they wreak havoc. the idea is that the enemy needs to try and prevent him to get into melee against vulnerable targets at all.

i mean once darius is in the face of someone, hes pretty hard to disengage from without strong escape or heavy peel. his w slow and the hook make him rather sticky.

garen has more trouble sticking, due to the lack of any proper cc except a short silence, but moves in a bit faster due to his q.

mundo is pretty much the same. difficult to get into the proper spot, but his point blank cleavers make him pretty sticky once hes in your face.

agreed, and riot stated once that bonus ms like udyr's E isn't considered as mobility

Decrit5 votes

... but what was skarner, if not a Q spamfest?

Honestly it seems to me like one of those champions which has some cool things attached to it but executed very awkwardly. If i were ever to play him it would be for the ult, mostly, since it is very characteristic of him both personally wise and strategically wise, but else...

with the recent reworks they added cool stuff - like the poison sting which is very scorpion-y and the shrines since he is not a common scorpion beast - but still i can' t make how he should be head to toe.

Smithney3 votes

MM hit the nail on the head: Riot finally need to get their junk together and decide what to do with Skarner. IMO the juggernaut update was an experiment on what can be done with Morde and Skarner rather than a final solution to their problems. Atm I feel like Morde's case is about to get closed in a few patches, but Skarner's still gonna need some serious followup. Hopefully some major event (please, be it Mount Targon) is going to ultimately refine Skarner's kit.

iamleburk1 votes

Agree completely. It is very clear the level of design has gone up recently though, with the marksmen reworks.

Teridax683 votes

I agree with a lot of this: Skarner's lore and thematic don't mesh too well with his kit, and his new passive, while awesome, wasn't put to use as well as it could've been. It would be awesome, imo, if his Crystal Spires covered entire quadrants of the map, rather than just portions of the jungle, if only temporarily, which would then allow him to exert power into lanes without the slew of awkward bonuses he has on his E and ult right now. His Q and W aren't particularly interesting from a gameplay or thematic perspective, and he could probably stand to lose both in favor of more flavorful effects. One of Skarner's issues right now, imo, is that he's either really strong or really weak, but always so consistently, so there isn't any point in combat where his damage or tankiness varies heavily in either direction (Crystal Slash and Crystalline Exoskeleton, in particular, have very little downtime), which is likely one of the reasons why he's so stat-checky in spite of his powerful CC.

ShadowParker3 votes

I personally loved Skarner, I felt his kit came together really well and was overall really fun. That was when he came out. Then he got reworked again. I kept playing him because I still found him fun, but then he got reworked again. Due to him having 3 reworks I don't want to touch him. Is it even worth it if there's possibly a 4th rework coming?

P.s. I also liked the 1st and 2nd reworks way better then this one.

Voidzilla3 votes

I really enjoyed playing Skarner pre-Juggernaut update; he was my second or third go-to jungler. I'll be honest and say I hate the current state Skarner's in now. He seems like such a bipolar Champion now - either he gets even a slight lead and is stupidly strong, or he gets slightly behind and is stupidly weak.

As much as I enjoyed the previous iteration, I think Skarner's kit not only is inherently hard to balance (a speedy, tanky, dps monster with powerful disables will do that), but his kit doesn't really scream "crystalline scorpion". I agree with you on your brief analysis of how scorpions actually act. Territorial, heavily armored, and having a nasty sting. Then it has to be balanced with the crystal aspect - jagged, hard, prismatic, having mystical energies (as crystals in fantasy settings tend to have). I think being a Juggernaut is a good fit for Skarner thematically and visually, but the way he plays seems like something different. Perhaps there should be a fourth rework on the Crystal Vanguard. I'm open to anything that may help our lonely Brackern, our crystal scorpion, our wise yet fierce warrior, find a place in League that isn't gimmicky or uninspired.

Noam Braumsky2 votes

I feel like the whole territoriality is something Riot could tap into. His spires are cool, but early game it always feels like a gamble fighting in them until you get some items. His sustain is pretty good and it feels great powering through clears, but other than that it feels slightly underwhelming.

Solaxo2 votes

Why does he have to be a juggernaut? Can't a champion be unique for once?

Oshlet3 votes

Its all well and good to say "make someone more unique" but how? What sort of fantasy do you want skarner to deliver?

Panwar3 votes

Saying a champ is a juggernaut doesn't make them less unique. It just shows where they fit into the scheme of champions. Garen and Illaoi are both juggernauts but are not the same. Syndra and Viegar are both combo mages but are not the same.

For a champion to have power and be balanced they must have weaknesses. Where they have their power and where they have their weaknesses are what places them in a category of champs that have similar areas of power and weaknesses.

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

Just replace his shitty passive. I cant stress enough how much i dont like it, yea it helps with the first clear and thats nice, but other than that? nothing other jungler always captures the point on their side which means you barely get ot use it offensivly, and if you do, it's so situational that it's not worth it. What if i dont wanna play him jungle? Give him a real passive that is consistant, the discount kennen ult as passive was nice, i liked it and it fit him well for what he was supposed to do - Stick to someone and do constant damage and your reward - a small stun that helps your stickiness - that was a Great! passive

AzureInTheDark2 votes

All I have to say regarding this is 'Omen'

Incognonymous2 votes

I really wouldn't mind if some of his steroids were exchanged for actual, decision based mechanics ie. abilities or ability combinations. Also, some sort of agreement on scaling. He has health, AD, and AP ratios. Would be interesting if he had some sort of consistent theme there too.

MrSlowDie2 votes

if you turn him into juggernaut, slow moving high damage and tanky. Then he's not skarner. He's no longer skarner. What was great about skarner was his stickiness. That's why people were mad when they reduced his stickiness power. Stickiness is the middle name of skarner.

and I don't think balancing champion based on their lore is wise. Ahri is about charming people and stealing their soul. Now since they distributed her E's damage amplification, she is not all about charm and dead combo. Well she still rely on her E, but not as much as the assassin ahri.

So I'll say this. don't reap skarner's stickiness. Just because juggernauts are juggernaut doesn't mean skarner has to be juggernaut

DeusVult2 votes

Skarner is not a juggernaut, Idk why they even classified him as one, his W and 2 cc spells, plus his tendency to build TF make him sticky as hell. Skarner can be kited (outside of his zones) given that he doesnt have a dash. But if he pulls you, your probably dead.

That is what Skarner is about.

junglerboy162 votes

I'd say he probably does need a fourth rework, but the next time they do they should take their time with it like Sion and Poppy got. He doesn't need a complete character overhaul like either of them (he has a good character identity already) but he will most likely need major a change in playstyle and mechanics to a pretty large degree. I was personally a big fan of his first/second rework, since it was the most similar to his original form just without a many of the binary play patterns he had previously.

His current rework is definitely more thematically appropriate than any of his previous iterations, because the spires, for how much I hated them initially, do encapsulate that fantasy of a great territorial monstrosity that you don't want to mess with. However, they do it in the wrong way. They only emphasize his absurd damage when on his home turf, without enhancing any of his other attributes, like durability or control of an area. Right now I feel like he shares a surprising amount of gameplay overlap with Trundle. Both are built as immobile, yet durable damage sources who focus on controlling an area well. However, I think Trundle does it much better in almost every way. When he is in an area where he is strong (his W's frozen domain), he gains a strong buff to his mobility and DPS, and also a substantial boost to his durability via the sustain buff he gets. Skarner's is a pure damage and mobility steroid, and while it does scream "stay off my turf!" it does do it for the right reasons.

If you wanted to emphasize his duality as a wise, ancient being but also a precise, deadly, primal beast, then I'd say the first thing to drop is his Q. Really, I think if/when they ever rework him again they should start from the ground up and focus on whatever feels best with his identity rather than trying to take what he has now and warp it (for the umpteenth time) into something that is slightly more in line with his appropriate identity.

In my opinion, Skarner should be more of an AP bruiser than an AD one (considering he is an ancient magical being). His gameplay should revolve around

  • Areas of strength (as in places on the map, similar to his current crystal spires passive)

  • Moments of high durability and nearly lacking in vulnerabilities (to imitate the behavior of an actual scorpion defending a territory like you've mentioned)

  • By using some sort of buildup mechanic he would transition from those moments of durability to have instances of comparative vulnerability but extremely high threat (to replicate how a scorpion lashing out with a stinger is briefly vulnerable while extended but at the same time very dangerous).

  • The closest in-game example of this style of gameplay that I'm talking about would be Volibear's bite, which requires significant ramp up but then allows one of the hardest hitting standard abilities in the whole game.

  • He used to actually fit this style after his second rework with his crystal venom passive, especially the way it worked with his ult. I think interactions like that (just slightly amped up and made more of the highlight of his rotation) would be perfect for him.

  • He should have decent AoE but still be primarily single target.

  • He should be extremely sticky within his zones of strength, but almost entirely lacking in mobility and CC outside of them.

  • His areas of strength should also be something he can place himself and must last for an extended period of time, however they should be on an extensive cooldown such that he has to make a substantial choice about how and when to use it.

  • He should have limited hard CC (if any), even within his territory, which means his suppress will likely not fit unless somehow tied directly to that big point of vulnerability and extreme threat that I mentioned.

  • As a jungler, he should probably keep his shield in some form or another, and it would be my choice of option for his exclusive mobility and extra durability when outside of one of his zones.

He shouldn't be restricted to predetermined zones by a passive, nor should he just be a ball of stats running around the rift. He should be incredibly hard to kill, have potentially lethal levels of burst, and be very difficult to fight one on one, but only within his territory; outside of that, he should have moderate burst and durability.

SirHeavyScrotum2 votes

I think in reference to him having too much cc and mobility to be a juggernaut, I actually disagree. While he is certainly in the upper spectrum of cc and mobility for a Juggernaut, I don't think he is quite disqualified.

Riot doesn't seem to have a problem with Juggernauts having tons of sticking power once they get close to you, the idea is never to let them get close. Darius has two slows and a displacement, Volibear has a displacement and a slow, Mundo can spam short range hard to miss cleavers for a perma-slow, Nasus gets move speed from his ult and has effectively a permaslow, Renekton has a stun and a double dash if he gets close enough to hit the first one, Udyr has a stun and a lot of free move speed, etc etc etc. Of course some don't but they're also considered Juggernauts (Garen and Morde come to mind).

In the case of Skarner, he does have more CC than other Juggernauts but he has to get close enough to use it. Also his mobility is only in terms of move speed, and it's not overwhelming. Any champion that has a dash that can be used to kite can usually escape skarner even if he is using his W and has a move speed item. Maybe that's not the case if he's on his spire, but part of the Juggernauts is that they're very powerful if you do come into their domain, so that may be part of his fitting to that theme.

I think while he does have quite a lot of utility and mobility for a Juggernaut, that's just it. Other Juggernauts have comperable amounts of mobility/cc (Ramus, Trundle specifically) but he sacrifices that for some of the strengths that other juggernauts excel at.

However, all that being said I agree with most of what you said, good post =)

Stars Shaper2 votes

Don't know much about Skarner and I've always seen him in good and bad performance, I've not played enough games with one in them to tell if now he feels like what he looks. I just want to support a well written thread.

Bladerunner77771 votes

I always thought skarner should be a highly durable but mobile (not with dashes but with movespeed) with good sustain but not much damage (he's extremely frustrating to play against when he deals damage with infinite sticking power). I personally think his niche should be: Running up to threat > stabbing them > bringing them into your team > bringing ugly death

basically make his kit complement his ult and build around it, it's what makes skarner cool

skyfall6191 votes

the best thing i liked about skarner was you spammed Q while near minions to ramp up speed and power. it made me think that the more blood he gets on his claws the stronger he gets. cutting through the masses while ur target is running but the q spam on minions made the target feel like it was destiny to feel the STING. that aspect is completely gone now. i like the new skar also but its just not the same.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Let's start from the assumption that this will be a small-scale rework. That means we're keeping his ult and as much of his old kit as possible.

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IqFofiKg,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-29T13:30:36.653+0000)

Larger Scorpions tend to use their claws as shields, using their armored plates as defense while waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Their claws parting as they strike with their stinger; Precise, swiftly, deadly.

What if we made Skarner a stance-shifting champ, kind of like a form-swapper, but easier to balance.

Base stats: skarner is squishy and moves slowly.

Q - switches between offensive and defensive stances. In offensive stance, Skarner gains bonus MS and AS, making him faster than average. In defensive stance, he gains bonus resists, making him tankier than average. No cooldown (jinx q) on this ability, BUT skarner may only switch to offensive stance if he has not taken damage to his health bar in a few seconds (think, hiding behind his claw-shields, only ready to come out when people stop hitting him). More on this in a sec.

W - Offensive: grants a boost of speed. Defensive: grants a sizable shield. Note how this works with the new Q mechanic: switch into defensive and throw up your shield. If the enemy can't break it, you may now switch back into offensive mode and get a burst of speed at them.

E - Offensive: Same old crystal slash Defensive: Same old fracture

R - may only be used in offensive stance.

Thoughts? The idea overall was just to give him a little more gameplay that makes him less of a ball of stats. I'm aware that this rework, which could on paper seem like a net nerf because of decreased availability of his abilities, is highly numbers-dependent -- in general I'd probably put in across-the-board buffs to his abilities.

Shuriman Curator1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IqFofiKg,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-11-29T19:52:32.563+0000)

Let's start from the assumption that this will be a small-scale rework. That means we're keeping his ult and as much of his old kit as possible.

What if we made Skarner a stance-shifting champ, kind of like a form-swapper, but easier to balance.

Base stats: skarner is squishy and moves slowly.

Q - switches between offensive and defensive stances. In offensive stance, Skarner gains bonus MS and AS, making him faster than average. In defensive stance, he gains bonus resists, making him tankier than average. No cooldown (jinx q) on this ability, BUT skarner may only switch to offensive stance if he has not taken damage to his health bar in a few seconds (think, hiding behind his claw-shields, only ready to come out when people stop hitting him). More on this in a sec.

W - Offensive: grants a boost of speed. Defensive: grants a sizable shield. Note how this works with the new Q mechanic: switch into defensive and throw up your shield. If the enemy can't break it, you may now switch back into offensive mode and get a burst of speed at them.

E - Offensive: Same old crystal slash Defensive: Same old fracture

R - may only be used in offensive stance.

Thoughts? The idea overall was just to give him a little more gameplay that makes him less of a ball of stats. I'm aware that this rework, which could on paper seem like a net nerf because of decreased availability of his abilities, is highly numbers-dependent -- in general I'd probably put in across-the-board buffs to his abilities.

Great idea!

MrSlowDie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IqFofiKg,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-11-29T19:52:32.563+0000)

Let's start from the assumption that this will be a small-scale rework. That means we're keeping his ult and as much of his old kit as possible.

What if we made Skarner a stance-shifting champ, kind of like a form-swapper, but easier to balance.

Base stats: skarner is squishy and moves slowly.

Q - switches between offensive and defensive stances. In offensive stance, Skarner gains bonus MS and AS, making him faster than average. In defensive stance, he gains bonus resists, making him tankier than average. No cooldown (jinx q) on this ability, BUT skarner may only switch to offensive stance if he has not taken damage to his health bar in a few seconds (think, hiding behind his claw-shields, only ready to come out when people stop hitting him). More on this in a sec.

W - Offensive: grants a boost of speed. Defensive: grants a sizable shield. Note how this works with the new Q mechanic: switch into defensive and throw up your shield. If the enemy can't break it, you may now switch back into offensive mode and get a burst of speed at them.

E - Offensive: Same old crystal slash Defensive: Same old fracture

R - may only be used in offensive stance.

Thoughts? The idea overall was just to give him a little more gameplay that makes him less of a ball of stats. I'm aware that this rework, which could on paper seem like a net nerf because of decreased availability of his abilities, is highly numbers-dependent -- in general I'd probably put in across-the-board buffs to his abilities.

it's better to release new champion than changes skarner's gameplay further more

Smithney1 votes

I would really love to see Skarner's lore updated. If we scratch his old lore, I think Skarner would fit in the Mount Targon setting very well. If Crystal scar gets updated in near future, perhaps we could see major work on Skarner's lore as well.

{quoted} ... but what was skarner, if not a Q spamfest?

Honestly it seems to me like one of those champions which has some cool things attached to it but executed very awkwardly.

On the other hand, I have no idea what more could be done for Skarner in his current state. I second Decrit's opinion in that Skarner's kit is a half-assed amalgamation of potentially cool abilities, and that the Q spam feels out of place on a champion that is supposed to be as slow and menacing as a glacier. I actually kinda like his new passive, but the rest of his kit needs much more work than a simple rehash. Finally, I wouldn't even miss his ultimate if it was removed in favor of meaningful changes.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Honestly, I think Rek'Sai represents what Skarner should be. A fearsome brawler who burrows into the ground and leaps out, taking you by surprise. She's a lot more beastly whereas Skarner simply looks like a creature.

Incognonymous1 votes

As someone with no context with Skarner prior to his current incarnation, I will say the Spire thing is underwhelming. It has the same problem as all minigames or miniobjectives in LoL-- it's binary. You either always maintain control of your Spires and are getting those benefits in those areas, or you don't. If they're up, you outstat the enemy, you kill them. If they aren't, that's power budget you can't use.

The areas where they spawn aren't necessarily a con, but I do think that since so much of his power budget is tied up in that passive that he should be able to cast or summon a Spire, like Trundle's W, and for the same reasons.

doubleguac1 votes

Thematically, juggernaut is, IMO, a good role for him to have. Juggernauts are basically damage oriented tanky champs, right? Tanks with low CC/utility. When I see a giant scorpion in a fantasy game, that's what I think. Lethal and armor-plated.

The problem, as OP points out, is that Skarner isn't really a juggernaut. He has a lot of crowd control, and he's quite sticky. He's somewhere between a juggernaut and an initiation tank.

The problem is his ult. It's by far the most iconic part of his kit -- really, the only part of his kit that's ever been super interesting. But it's not an ult that really fits on a juggernaut. It's a hugely disruptive piece of crowd control. If you want him to ever be able to use it effectively, he has to have tools that help him reach the enemy backline. So we're already talking about a champ who has game-changing CC utility and some kind of hard-engage potential. Not really sounding very juggernaut-y.

I don't think Riot's ever going to scrap his ult, simply because it is so iconic. But as long as he has that ult, his kit will be built around it. As long as his kit is built around that ult, he won't really be a true juggernaut IMO.

Dingding1231 votes

Less crystal wards, more awesome ulti.

Xela Syab1 votes

My issue with Skarner at least playstyle is that he plays like Udyr with a ranged slow opposed to a gap closing stun. He's in that realm of quasi tanky bruiser with random magic damage sprinkled in and heavily item dependant. That's my biggest issue with Skarn is that I don't know what to buy on him, his shield and cc was never strong enough for him to be an initiator and his damage isn't strong enough for him to kill anyone in a decent fashion. Unlike Udyr or Shyvana or Dr.Mundo where you have a really strong late game with items, Skarner just feels weak, he doesn't ever get an item spike with any of his core items.

Lore wise he's tied into Dominion and no one cares about Dominion.

Dicerson1 votes

Was making this whole long post agreeing with you, but ended up making a Brainstorm thread XD

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Gwnyv8A7-rework-concept-skarner-the-crystal-vanguard

Old Man Teeto1 votes

heal on Q

It was E, though you used the Q to AoE proc it.

Also Skarner is basically a designer going "We need a champion with this really cool ultimate." then throwing three other abilities and a passive onto the champion who they designed around being a Scorpion who impales people.

The stun passive tried to make Skarner more scorpion like with a poison named stun mechanic but meh w/e.

Champions need more thought than "This one ability would be neat on someone." Even GD can come up with single cool ability champions with no cohesive thematic kit.

LithiumWednesday1 votes

"rock bug"

Skarner has gone between states of "Lots of CC and decent damage and mobility" and "We realized no one could get away from him so we kicked his dick to the moon"

There's definitely a way to implement Skarner into the game without making his kit as binary as it's historically been. I think the main problem is that Riot wants Skarner to do too many things at once in a combination that makes him impossible to be good and healthy at the same time.

Loco Mot1ves1 votes

(For some reason my original post doesn't look like it went through so I pasted what I had saved and just shortened it up at the end with talk about the skills and their synergy in team fight situations, etc.)

This post definitely inspired a few ideas to make Skarner feel more like the deadly scorpion he is. The talk about theme, lore and finding where he fits in all contribute to this concept.

Passive: Every third auto, Skarner lashes out with his tail at an extended range and poisons the enemy,causing DoT. Scales at 3/6/9/12/15/18. Magic damage +% health missing. The less health you have, the idea is that you are more susceptible to the effects. As a fight draws out longer, playing on to his inherent tankiness as a crystal beast, the more he is going to hurt you.

Q: A scorpion has all their deadly weapons pointed forward. Face to face, you're going to get wrecked. Having his Q do a full AoE doesn't really translate into that kind of weakness if you are getting attacked from the side or behind. If your running away, you shouldn't be able to spam Q's. Skarner attacks twice in front of him in an AoE cone (short and wide, nicely enough to smack a group of 3 minions at a time), and apply on hit affects. After the first attack, the second one is done at double his current attack speed to get it off in quick succession and stacks towards his passive for a deadly combo. Physical damage,as far as numbers go, just need a balanced ratio and base. I'm leaning towards high base damage and a lower scaling to fit the juggernaut role better.

W: Having removed the spires from his passive, instead of getting energized and getting some buffs that way, Skarner is getting energized (during the cool down) and uses it to summon a spire within a short radius around him (point and click). This is an attackable structure that gains health at each rank. He can store up to 3 (originally I was thinking of 5 or 8, but looking back it seems like too many to have around the map) of these on a relatively longer cool down and they can block movement (it's not large enough to make any areas impassable, but a bit larger than having to walk around a minion normally). Inside the radius of these decaying structures (time relative to how much health it has and CD timer),Skarner gets his bonus move speed, attack speed (gotta get dat passive!) and charged basic attacks or bonus AD. Obviously these structures can be destroyed by the enemy for gold.

E: This one I had the most trouble with, and more than a few ideas. Not sure if I'm 100% on what I settled with, but this is my favourite. Passive: The more damage Skarner takes, the more AR and MR he receives based on % health missing. Taking damage charges Skarner as he absorbs it all into his body (all damage or just auto attacks?) and once he reaches max capacity, he can activate it.

Active: Skarner releases all the energy from his stinger in a blast of crystallized energy slowing the target and dealing AP damage. If they are poisoned, the skill shot will stun the target instead. The attack passes through targets until reaching the end of its range and can stun multiple poisoned targets if your lucky.

R: Keep it the same but it applies the passive on hit to set up for an E if you have it.

Silver3MMC1 votes

I think gbay99 did a good job of explaining the Issues with champions like Skarner in his video about Omen. Riot has a lot of problems making non-human champs because it's either their Kits are overpowered or they're worthless. Also there is no item that perfectly fits Skarner so its kind of like pick and choose which one over or underpowered. Personally I like a play Skarner but xxIMURCARRY69xx over there hates him so it's all perspective.

Also Yorick

l Helios l1 votes

He will need an update prob. Or at least kit tweaks to fit his 'identity', whatever that needs to be. Personally, I think Riot just takes shots to see how things will go over; it comes down to a hit and miss scenario most of the time. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't. When they don't, they fix it...in time. Patience is often a virtue in these scenarios.

ThePartyLeader1 votes

Would like to see a complete rework. Would think something on this order. Q is thematically fine. Aoe dmg W would be shield mixed with defense curl. This makes you tanky E I am thinking similar to kench tongue lash. Longish range skill shot with stinger. Slows and poisons target hit. R. Passive something like on third hit you deal poison damage Active would be a root but it roots you to skarner similar to now but you can still deal damage basically. You can only use it on poisoned champions.

Passive. Now here's where it gets weird. While shielded skarner can pass through jungle terrain. Think like how a scorpion flattens itself out to get in impossible places to chase or surprise pray.

Game interaction would be if skarner pulls you into terrain you get stunned similar to when you get knocked into terrain.

Scorpions don't chase you down. They either come into your home( come through your jungle wall to gank you) melt your insides(poison) and eat you or they suprise you when you walk by there home. ( coming out of there jungle wall to catch you extended) melt your insides (poison) then drag you to where they can drink you ( pulling you into terrain and stun you)

would be very unique. Would interact well with others ( think any champion that can sheild him and give him ms) Can't just eternally chase you down. Can duel better than team fight. Isn't just a tank with an ult but a split pusher that's hard to catch.

Nefas1 votes

I agreed with just about all of your posts on Morde.

I couldn't disagree more with your post here on Skarner.

You objected to Morde's identity being twisted and removed. Don't suggest that for other champs. Skarner's identity is not a juggernaut and never has been no matter what Riot currently thinks. It is what they used to say about him: "light fighter". He should be fast and lightly armored. He shouldn't be forced into the jungle any more than Morde should be forced into bot. A good faction of his old fan base enjoyed Skarner top. Why should they be screwed over?

MarhsallLee671 votes

I miss the days when his E-Q combo healed him and his E did damage. AP Skarner mid for life.

Sire Hippington1 votes

The biggest problem with skarner is how torn apart the community is about what he is/should be, mostly caused by 2, soon 3 generations of skarner players.

I loved the original skarner, mostly as either ap or hybrid bruiser top. I loved getting that much tankiness out off Ap, getting suprising amounts of survivabillity whenever my cds were up, allowing me to turn around with 10% hp left and win fights that way. The combination of the E heal and his shield aswell as his synergie with gunblade were what i liked most on him, combined with sticking-power and sustained dps. The ult was a nice tool on top, but never the most important reason to play him. I guess most skarner players from that time did like the tanky dps thing on him alot, beeing strong if not heavily focused in teamfights and powerfull 1v1, going more towards shyvana.

With the first rework, that changed alot, he became a more cc focused tank rather than a dps focused bruiser, he lost survivabillity with his E heal and his ap was butchered. As a jungler, he became better imo, as his ganks were better and he could contribute more to teamfights without to much gold. But as a sololaner, he was hit really hard. I think most players of that time really loved beeing a highspeed disruptive tank with strong pick potential, going more towards udyr.

New skarner is much closer to the second version, just that he gives up som more average damage and a bit cc for bigger junglecontroll, giving him more a controll/counterjungle vibe compared tpo befor. So maybe we get a new generation of scarners that like his jungle controll.

Finding a new version that statisfys all the groups is prettymuch impossible.

i personally would prefer a mix of 1 and two, getting back the heal mechanic on E and getting some better ap.scaleings, but focuseing more on cc rather than damage compared to original skarner. Beeing a sustained figher that is very hard to kill in drawn out fights unless heavily focused due high tankiness from shiedl+heal, beeing a constant annoyance with disruptive cc, ramping up some serious damage if ignored for to long(but no where near shy or old skarner+some rampup time), great at bringeing a primary target out of position if he is allowed to get close to it.

I think exceling in long duration fights fits to an ancient creature, he's not about flashy and hasty playes, he's as constant as a mountain. I also think haveing 'supriseing tankiness' is kinda fitting aswell, beeing the only know survivor of his kind, he has proven to survive in situations in which one thinks he shouldn't. I don't think skarner needs to be very slow, scorpions are quite fast for their body size

Also, like Critmaster Garen said, a ms-buff is hardly considered mobillity in this game, and i don't think Juggernaut has to mean tanky+damage, no cc. It's more hard time getting into meleerange, but huge impact within melee range which defines juggernauts, and by that definition skarner fits perfectly well.

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