Is it time to give the Lee complaints a break?

Hyrum Graff·Mar 21, 2015·18 votes·1,482 views

He's no longer a priority must-pick-or-ban champ in the LCS. Nerfed? A little bit, by the jungle changes. Balanced? I'd say so, in large part because of the introduction of cinderhulk and tank jungler buffs.

Do I think Lee deserves to be reworked? Absolutely, because he's way too safe, for his playmaking potential. But I'd like to start seeing discussion about Lee changes based on actual analysis of his kit, not just "'but muh LC$BIGPLAY$' -RITO" QQ.

Are you with me?

44 Comments

SirsirMar 21, 20153 votes

I don't think the boards are capable of not complaining about lee anymore. Its been a thing for so long, by now its pretty much like asking them to stop breathing.

ZmuecatMar 22, 20151 votes

Nah, we can stop. We stopped briefly to bitch about Veigar.

We were blue in the face, but that's no the point.

DroogzyMar 21, 20152 votes

I honestly have never had a problem with him, but especially now, I think the complaints need to stop, he's really not as potent as he used to be anymore. The jungle requires champions who are dominant in one particular area to do well, not generalist. Lee Sin's only advantage I would argue now is that he can be first picked to avoid revealing what your team comp looks like, but outside of that...he's pretty meh. And I would argue if you're going down that route, Lulu is a better first pick then Lee Sin.

While Lee Sin is a good generalist, he's really not as good as most people make him out to be, unless he gets fed, which is a pretty damn moot point to begin with anyways.

One thing I will acknowledge though and I've noticed more and more, its the same people that complain vehemently about him, just take a look at Draveeeeeeeeeeen's post log, it's quite literally pretty much 90% bitching about Lee Sin lol.

Nucleophilic atkMar 21, 20152 votes

I don't think it should be given a break until Lee Sin actually gets a weakness. He is good at everything and works well with every team comp.

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

Let me reiterate: I DO think lee deserves a small rework for exactly this reason: to give him a weakness.

My opinions on lee:

He has no weaknesses. He also has no particular strengths. That is to say, he's a generalist.
Therefore, he's either better than everyone at everything or mediocre at everything And nobody wants to play a champ who's mediocre at everything Because that's another way of saying, "Not particularly good at anything".
We should give him ONE thing that he does better than everyone else (his niche) and also give him things he does worse than everything else.
This will give players a reason to pick him that *isn't* "that he's OP."
We shouldn't just complain about him without giving any reasoning at all. That's what we do when a champ is OP, and Lee isn't OP any more.

Nucleophilic atkMar 21, 20151 votes

Lol, I get what you're saying. I'm just saying I think the boards should continue to be spammed with it until Riot decides to do something. Just today I was watching a LCS game and the announcer said something like, "Well, it will be interesting to see what they do against this team blah blah blah....just pick Lee Sin". They joke about it, but it absolutely true. Everyone says about "how hard" he falls off late game. Bullshit. He is tanky enough to dive into the enemy team and kick away the adc. That is pretty good late game I would say. Then just jump out because "lol mobility". Just my opinion, however. If we give it a break, rito will think everything is fine and dandy.

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

I don't think Lee threads should stop. I do think 22-word (for reference, this thread is 44 words long) Lee threads should stop.

Now that we have all established that Lee needs a rework, I'd like to see some of our ideas for one.

Nucleophilic atkMar 21, 20151 votes

I would agree. I don't see it happening, though. For one, the community is not very intelligent. Plain and simple. That is the reason that long well thought out posts are completely ignore while 22-word "nerf Lee" threads and upvoted.

My thought would be to remove the amount of random things he gets. Why da fuk does Lee get spell vamp lol? They could also increase Q CD. It's so spamming. Also, give him actual energy cost. I played 1 game with him, no idea how to play him, and never ran out of energy in the jungle. I think ward hops shouldn't be allowed to free trinkets. He shouldn't have that stupid high AD ratios. While none of these are that strong along, he just combines every single thing you would want: damage, tankiness, and utility. He snowballs the game out of control if played right. That one game I played with him, I made two successful tower dives at lvl 3. What the actual fuk lol.

Hyrum GraffMar 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IpfPz6v1,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-21T23:50:35.071+0000)

I would agree. I don't see it happening, though. For one, the community is not very intelligent. Plain and simple. That is the reason that long well thought out posts are completely ignore while 22-word "nerf Lee" threads and upvoted.

It's true that short threads are often highly upvoted while long, thoughtful threads are often ignored, but I disagree with your conclusions. My conclusions are:

People have a short attention span.
- If a thread is long without being well-formatted and easy to read, people will not read it, no matter how good the content is.
- Formatting a thread well is hard.
Short threads have a narrow topic
- "Zed is OP right now"

edit: ugh. my long post just got cut off. Sorry, no effort to re-write it right now.

tl;dr, keep long thoughtful posts focused on one idea only, with everything coming back to it, and format them well, and you can totally get upvotes. See this

As to Lee, he's too weak to just nerf him right now. After we nerf the random stuff out of his kit, what should we give him back so that he's balanced?

WIOP6457Mar 22, 20151 votes

I pick him because he is fun af, and one of my hardest champs to play imho.

Hyrum GraffMar 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I pick him because he is fun af, and one of my hardest champs to play imho.

What makes him fun to play for you?

WIOP6457Mar 26, 20151 votes

His mechanics, and the mobility. I do agree his early dmg is opressive, but imho he's the most fun to play based on the fact that he's incredibly mobile.

Knight SoIaire Mar 21, 20151 votes

he will get a rework

Nucleophilic atkMar 21, 20151 votes

The only acceptable rework for him is a Veigar style rework.

Knight SoIaire Mar 21, 20151 votes

veigar didnt get reworked at all he got nerfed, plain and simple

lee needs an actual rework to push his gameplay in any direction

EnkidusmurfMar 21, 20151 votes

OH HELL YES!

BlueBuffandChillMar 21, 20151 votes

he is op and will always be op opopopopopfuckuriotgamesoccksuckers

Sightless66Mar 21, 20151 votes

Is the circlejerk ending already? But I just whipped out my anti-Lee dick. What am I supposed to do now?

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

I heard teemo likes himself an anti-Lee dick or two.

UdoIkOSc4uMar 21, 20151 votes

he must recive his well deserved nerfs cause even nida wont be picked in a tanky meta so idc

XysMar 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

UdoIkOSc4uMar 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

bronze

sheep that main lee sin

XysMar 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

UdoIkOSc4uMar 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i like how you're silver trash and dedicate your life to complaining about lee, but when anyone says he's balanced you say "le sheep xDDDDD"

you're so pathetic, learn to play around his weaknesses before bitching and circlejerking on this board, retard.

i'm not silver sheep

XysMar 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

UdoIkOSc4uMar 21, 20151 votes

You are just showing stupidity like every lee main that defend the champ 1) i'm not fagg 2)why would it matter and be an insult anyway?

3tysonMar 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

he must recive his well deserved nerfs cause even nida wont be picked in a tanky meta so idc

Do you have lee sin ?

AbyssphereMar 21, 20151 votes

You actually do notice his win rate and play rate starting to drop at the very beginning of this patch, i.e. with the release of Cinderhulk. It's quite beautiful.

I still think he needs a rework of sorts because his kit is truly a nightmare of design and imo doesn't fulfill his supposed fantasy at all (his current gameplay fantasy isn't even "epic martial arts fighter jumping around the battle field", it's "absolute dick who controls every engage and disengage and runs away from everything he wants to"). He doesn't seem too strong anymore, but he's still both boring to watch and boring to play against. And I'm pretty sure the only enjoyment in playing him comes from "I get to feel like I'm in the LCS!" and/or "I get to mock the less stupid jungler the opponent is playing!".

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IpfPz6v1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-03-21T23:20:34.756+0000)

Let me reiterate: I DO think lee deserves a small rework for exactly this reason: to give him a weakness.

My opinions on lee:

He has no weaknesses. He also has no particular strengths. That is to say, he's a generalist.

Therefore, he's either better than everyone at everything or mediocre at everything And nobody wants to play a champ who's mediocre at everything Because that's another way of saying, "Not particularly good at anything".

We should give him ONE thing that he does better than everyone else (his niche) and also give him things he does worse than everything else.

This will give players a reason to pick him that *isn't* "that he's OP."

We shouldn't just complain about him without giving any reasoning at all. That's what we do when a champ is OP, and Lee isn't OP any more.

ChargeItDownMidMar 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

Although it's only kind of related to this thread:

IMO, Lee is in a good spot in terms of pure power level. If there are other champs weaker than him, I think we should buff them up to Lee level instead of nerfing Lee. If there are champs stronger than him, I think they deserve a little tap with the nerf bat.

ChargeItDownMidMar 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

I think maybe we disagree on how far above average we think Lee is.

I think that if many of the 'weaker' champs were given very small, almost QoL buffs, they'd be on-par with Lee. And those that wouldn't, are intentionally left weak because their gameplay is not healthy, and need a rework.

UperiorMar 21, 20151 votes

The less Lee the better really; Either seeing him ingame, or complaints.

It's nice to see the Jungle open up to a LOT more champs who were pretty much worthless a patch ago, but the fact remains that Lee is STILL a bit much.

I mean, yes, tanky champs have a made a comeback, but the problem is that Lee never had ANY problems (he wasn't the only one but still) and still has no big issues.

The problem lies in how safe and well rounded he his. He can fit into pretty much ANY team, and get away with a lot of things other champions see the nerfbat for. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but for being a generally good pick, he's TOO good at doing too many things.

Ah well; we'll have to wait and see what happens next patch to see if Lee hops back up ;P

Hyrum GraffMar 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IpfPz6v1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-03-21T23:20:34.756+0000)

Let me reiterate: I DO think lee deserves a small rework for exactly this reason: to give him a weakness.

My opinions on lee:

He has no weaknesses. He also has no particular strengths. That is to say, he's a generalist.

Therefore, he's either better than everyone at everything or mediocre at everything And nobody wants to play a champ who's mediocre at everything Because that's another way of saying, "Not particularly good at anything".

We should give him ONE thing that he does better than everyone else (his niche) and also give him things he does worse than everything else.

This will give players a reason to pick him that *isn't* "that he's OP."

We shouldn't just complain about him without giving any reasoning at all. That's what we do when a champ is OP, and Lee isn't OP any more.

Knight SoIaire Mar 21, 20151 votes

Balanced? I'd say so

well for him its a vague term

at normal level of play he isnt usefull at highest level of play he is ballanced, so the fact that he needs so much work work againts him since you need to work harder to get as much as others

but yes, the complaints were about him being the best jungler in lcs so that means ppl got what they wanted

Malix FarwinMar 21, 20151 votes

To be perfectly honest, i no longer fear lee at the moment. biggest fears are Vi and Sejuani

Hyrum GraffMar 24, 20151 votes

This is exactly why I want to talk about a Lee rework right now. He's weak enough that we can talk about him without having a knee-jerk "nerf lee" reflex.

futuresight23Mar 22, 20151 votes

Probably. 5.5 seems to have put him out of the spotlight in the LCS (think I've seen 1 Lee Sin pick so far this week in EU and NA combined) and his winrate since the patch has gone down to around 44-45% in solo queue (there are 7 champions with worse winrates over the past week). If this keeps up over the next month or so, some people are seriously going to start asking for Lee Sin buffs like they did with Elise.

Granted, I don't think that will happen but now is probably not a great time to complain about Lee.

Hyrum GraffMar 24, 20151 votes

I'm not asking to complain about Lee, I'm asking to think about ideas for a Lee rework.

Lee's kind of like Urgot (hear me out). If he's strong, he's strong enough to do everything better than everyone. Jungle, top, mid, adc, even support. Tank? Full AD? All viable. It's because they have too much built into their kit. On the other hand, if you make them weak enough so they can't do everything well, then they don't shine anywhere. And let's be honest, that's way less interesting than a champion with a niche and weaknessess.

Lee's too much of a generalist right now, so he can't be strong without being the go-to pick for everything. I'm suggesting we should rework him so he has distinct strengths and weaknesses, and that now is the perfect time to do that, precisely because he is weak, so people can think about him without just instant-QQing.

The Yetii RiderMar 23, 20151 votes

Excellent! I'm with you 100%! Now then, in order to bring Lee more into a specialized role, SOME PART of his identity MUST be removed. A lot of people like the Insec plays, so tampering with his actual kit is likely a risky maneuver. Therefore, I will suggest these changes:

Iron Will/Cripple - REMOVED. Olaf lost Spell Vamp when he was reworked because Spell Vamp on a jungler is just too strong due to how it interacts with Smite. Lee Sin does not need to avoid this change any longer. Iron Will gives a lot of invisible power and honestly if Lee Sin is changed to be more of a mobile tank then it really doesn't belong on his kit. Cripple is removed as well, because there will be more changes to come when we condense his kit down, and having 7 skills is just annoying. Having 4 skills (with his Q still being a double cast for fun and identity) is much more manageable.

Safeguard - Ward Hopping REMOVED. This was never intended and just allows for too much flexibility in Lee Sin's kit. There is counterplay in hopping to minions and champions because the enemy player can see them. Wards are invisible and thus you can't react or prepare to your opponent rushing towards a ward in order to hop to it when he can see it and you can't. Even worse, with trinkets and Sightstones, Lee Sin can both provide vision to his team AND have a get out of jail free card whenever just sitting in his pocket on a 60 second cooldown.

Passive - Reworked. Instead of its current ability, Lee Sin now silences all enemies hit by one of his abilities, with a six second cooldown. As a utility mobile tank, Lee Sin's job will be to get into the fray and disrupt his opponents, but as a tank he should also have a true cost to his abilities, and thus with this change Lee Sin will be the only Energy champion who lacks any kit-based way to recharge his Energy, forcing him to rely on the standard recharge during team fights.

Q - Damage lowered SIGNIFICANTLY. % Health Execute REMOVED. This Lee Sin will rely on Bami's Cinder to clear jungle like other tanks, and will not be interested in dealing damage as much as he will moving to high priority targets and silencing them.

Tempest - Vision granted of enemies hit REMOVED. Lee Sin already has vision on his Q, he doesn't need two reveal abilities. Tempest is also changed to deal physical damage instead of magic damage.

Tempest - NEW UTILITY - Any enemy silenced by Tempest will also be Taunted to attack Lee Sin for 1/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds. This is an interesting way to mix things up, because without Lee Sin's ward hopping, he'll be relying on his Q to initiate, and his Q will then silence an enemy, so the only way that Lee can get an AOE taunt is if he survives in the fray for 6 seconds. Combining this with the ramped up damage from Cinderhulk will give Lee reason to stay in the fray, kicking his enemies and hopefully slowing them down with IBG or Frozen Mallet.

Dragon's Rage - 200% Bonus AD REMOVED. Damage now scales with 50% of Lee Sin's AP, increasing by 10% for each enemy that the original target is knocked through.

Hyrum GraffMar 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Excellent! I'm with you 100%! Now then, in order to bring Lee more into a specialized role, SOME PART of his identity MUST be removed. A lot of people like the Insec plays, so tampering with his actual kit is likely a risky maneuver. Therefore, I will suggest these changes:

Iron Will/Cripple - REMOVED. Olaf lost Spell Vamp when he was reworked because Spell Vamp on a jungler is just too strong due to how it interacts with Smite. Lee Sin does not need to avoid this change any longer. Iron Will gives a lot of invisible power and honestly if Lee Sin is changed to be more of a mobile tank then it really doesn't belong on his kit. Cripple is removed as well, because there will be more changes to come when we condense his kit down, and having 7 skills is just annoying. Having 4 skills (with his Q still being a double cast for fun and identity) is much more manageable.

Safeguard - Ward Hopping REMOVED. This was never intended and just allows for too much flexibility in Lee Sin's kit. There is counterplay in hopping to minions and champions because the enemy player can see them. Wards are invisible and thus you can't react or prepare to your opponent rushing towards a ward in order to hop to it when he can see it and you can't. Even worse, with trinkets and Sightstones, Lee Sin can both provide vision to his team AND have a get out of jail free card whenever just sitting in his pocket on a 60 second cooldown.

Passive - Reworked. Instead of its current ability, Lee Sin now silences all enemies hit by one of his abilities, with a six second cooldown. As a utility mobile tank, Lee Sin's job will be to get into the fray and disrupt his opponents, but as a tank he should also have a true cost to his abilities, and thus with this change Lee Sin will be the only Energy champion who lacks any kit-based way to recharge his Energy, forcing him to rely on the standard recharge during team fights.

Q - Damage lowered SIGNIFICANTLY. % Health Execute REMOVED. This Lee Sin will rely on Bami's Cinder to clear jungle like other tanks, and will not be interested in dealing damage as much as he will moving to high priority targets and silencing them.

Tempest - Vision granted of enemies hit REMOVED. Lee Sin already has vision on his Q, he doesn't need two reveal abilities. Tempest is also changed to deal physical damage instead of magic damage.

Tempest - NEW UTILITY - Any enemy silenced by Tempest will also be Taunted to attack Lee Sin for 1/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds. This is an interesting way to mix things up, because without Lee Sin's ward hopping, he'll be relying on his Q to initiate, and his Q will then silence an enemy, so the only way that Lee can get an AOE taunt is if he survives in the fray for 6 seconds. Combining this with the ramped up damage from Cinderhulk will give Lee reason to stay in the fray, kicking his enemies and hopefully slowing them down with IBG or Frozen Mallet.

Dragon's Rage - 200% Bonus AD REMOVED. Damage now scales with 50% of Lee Sin's AP, increasing by 10% for each enemy that the original target is knocked through.

First off, thank you for contributing a kit rework idea!

Second, I apologize for not having the time to give this response the attention it deserves. Reply to this post so I get a notification and I'll write up a slightly longer thing later (next weekend?).

Third: I think your ideas are, in general, very good for turning Lee into a mobility tank. However, personally that's not the direction I'd like to push him in. I think of Lee as the Bruce Lee of League, jumping all over a fight, making the other supposedly professional assassins look like a bunch of kindergartners. As such, I think we should amp up his mobility (yes, I said that) but making it more situational (bye, ward hops) and also decreasing his reliability (see also: skill shots). My core idea for how to do that was to make his AAs deal no damage, but refund cooldowns on his abilities in addition to energy.

My goal would basically be to make him really hard to lock down in a fight, but make it easier to engage on him. I'd also like to change him to be less of a duelist and better at fighting when there are multiple enemies around.

The Yetii RiderMar 24, 20151 votes

Alright, then. Looking forward to your ideas.