"Falling off" is not about damage alone.

Mira Arya Enthe··172 votes·7,675 views

Even back in S2 when Shaco was considered to fall off a cliff by mid game. He still one shot people who had few or no tank items with his crit/AD build. People on the boards often make the mistake of thinking that means a champion does not fall off.

"Falling off" however has little to do with damage. Shaco, Jayce, Lee Sin, Quinn, Pantheon, Renekton. These champions fall off late game. They all still do plenty of damage, but it has to do with how the game dynamic changes. The tools they have are incredibly strong for laning phase. Either they can bully in lane, invade in jungle or gank very well. Whatever it is they have a strong laning phase due to TOOLS.

When they fall off it is because the game has shifted to team fighting, objective disputes and sieges. Where a team playing properly can fairly easily mitigate their ability to apply their damage and use their tools in the intended manner.

For example. A Pantheon early game can ult mid and kill a Syndra or Vlad ez pz without much opportunity for them to react with blowing a summoner spell. And he can murder the Riven he is laning against over and over with relative ease. By mid game however a big sturdy Zac is peeling him off of Syndra, the tightly packed formation can CC him out of his heartseeker strike and blow him up, the support can exhaust him. Meanwhile Riven can focus on flanking his carries. His usefulness has fallen off. Now if he and his team play well or your team plays bad, he will certainly still blow shit up. But his tools were not meant for this setting.

Scalings and base damages can help or hinder how hard a champion falls off. But they are NOT the basis for it. Another form of falling off is when a champion is hard countered by late game itemization. For example GA counters many reset based champions(just one example).

This is falling off. Not the scaling of a single ability or combo. It doesn't mean they are fair or fun to fight. But it IS falling off.

Thank you.

229 Comments

Silly Neeko50 votes

To simply sum up my response to this post........

Agreed.

JRobin315 votes

aR!

Prospector Pete35 votes

The problem with Lee Sin is that if played properly, he doesn't fall off. I agree with your points, but on top of his damage, Lee Sin can engage and disengage teamfights with his very low-cooldown ult as well as being very hard to catch. So yes, Lee Sin does "fall off" late game compared to early/mid game, but he's still good.

Mannny4 votes

Never seen a Lee effectively engage with his ult unless the team didnt ward, wasn't paying attention to the minimap and was miss-positioning. He needs to do the Insec or he can't set up for his team.

Steelflame7 votes

The Insec is practically the norm now, and sure it may have been something exciting 2+ years ago, but now? It is a standard staple of lee that 90% of the playerbase of him can do. Sure, bad players won't always do it perfectly, but the skill itself filters down through ranks. Imagine if we were to put the average gold player nowadays into the environments of season 1. He'd probably be one of the best players in the world at that point in time. Game knowledge, skill, and mechanics have vastly improved for the average player over the duration of the game's life.

Mira Arya Enthe41 votes

This is because currently he is overtuned in general. He still falls off. Just not enough due to how high he starts.

SEKAI10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ImuJBcNB,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-04-29T20:29:56.433+0000)

This is because currently he is overtuned in general. He still falls off. Just not enough due to how high he starts.

This is correct, Lee has always been, with a couple exception throughout this entire existence, a champion who starts from being outright broken and slowly "falls off" to being average, which is frankly just wrong.

But Riot, for fears of his rabid fanbase, has been scared to touch him in any meaningful way. They tried, and twice I think they were met with extreme negative press and people had literally rioted at them for doing something right, which is just bizarre to say the least.

Damn.

ABlueQuaker4 votes

It really doesn't matter. His role shifts from Diver to Vanguard by late-game. As long as he can engage or disengage a teamfight correctly with his R he's doing his job and isn't falling off at all.

People often mistake 'falling off' with having a different role within the team as the game progresses.

chipndip15 votes

Lee being generally usable late game doesn't mean he didn't fall off.

Wyrmblade14 votes

God tier -> Good tier isn't actually falling off.

chipndip118 votes

That is actually the definition of "falling off". You become worse as the game goes on. Even if you have a solid fallback plan after falling off, you still fell off otherwise you wouldn't use a fallback plan.

SEKAI6 votes

{quoted}

That is actually the definition of "falling off". You become worse as the game goes on. Even if you have a solid fallback plan after falling off, you still fell off otherwise you wouldn't use a fallback plan.

Assume you have 100 million dollars, and that amount is reduced by a shocking 50 million. You will still have 50 million dollars, which is still far more than what the vast majority of people would ever earn in their entire life. This is very extreme, but you get the point.

YES, it IS "fall off", technically. But it is a completely meaningless one because that "fall off" means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lee "falls off" WITH RESPECT TO HIMSELF AND NOT THE ACTUAL GAME does not address or solve the problem he has, which is being good to broken throughout the entire game, even in the phase where he's supposed to be literally useless.

To draw another extreme, a champ who does 10 billion damage that "falls off" to do 1 million damage is a MASSIVE fall off in terms of themselves, but that doesn't change the fact they're still just outright broken. A "fall off" has to be actually a "fall off" WITH RESPECT TO THE GAME, which Lee doesn't really have, and really needs to be addressed in.

chipndip111 votes

Here's the thing: You're wrong. Blatantly wrong.

All data points to the notion that Lee wins way more earlier on. Common sense points to the notion that there's PLENTY of champs that outscale Lee Sin in this game. Lee's fallback plan is better than some other early game champs like Renekton and Pantheon (especially Panth, given he hardly has one), but that doesn't mean he's just super-duper amazing all game long because he isn't more useless than nips on a man at the 30 minute mark. If you want to continue circle-jerking, go right ahead...just clean up when you're done.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: You're wrong. Blatantly wrong.

All data points to the notion that Lee wins way more earlier on. Common sense points to the notion that there's PLENTY of champs that outscale Lee Sin in this game. Lee's fallback plan is better than some other early game champs like Renekton and Pantheon (especially Panth, given he hardly has one), but that doesn't mean he's just super-duper amazing all game long because he isn't more useless than nips on a man at the 30 minute mark. If you want to continue circle-jerking, go right ahead...just clean up when you're done.

Except just a couple days ago where someone posted a statistic defending and claiming the same thing as you're saying now, literally had their stats pointed out that Lee is sitting on roughly 53-54% win rate at the start of the game, "jungler average" winrate (roughly 50%) even at 30-35 min mark of a match, and at 40+min he still retains a roughly 48% win rate (concerning the last 2 points, it's you know, when he's supposed to suck major shit due to his supposed falling off? And no, don't attempt to tell me that having a win rate of 48%, which is pretty average, after your early power spike has supposedly LONG OVERDUE, by roughly 25+ min in fact, is perfectly okay).

That thread as far as I know, originally received positive feedback where its OP was hailed as someone who'd defeated the myth, but only for some of the skeptics (me included) to kick in to actually interpret the stats and then slightly made fun of the OP for literally confirming their claims and allegations. The thread shortly faded into obscurity after, for more reasons than one, make it however you will (but I guess threads also just die really fast here on NA by default).

Again, point is, Lee "falls off" IN RESPECTIVE TO HIMSELF. But not actually so in the grand scheme of things. He merely falls from being OP to being average, that's not saying much on "falling off" with all things considered. There is no way a champ with that kinda power curve is justified, you might as well have late game champs like some marksmen to also go from being average to being broken late game.

Oh wait....

Yeah it's pretty clear Riot's balance's philosophy needs a heads up in certain areas.

chipndip12 votes

Lee has a linearly progressing negative relationship when it comes to game duration vs. win rate, but because he doesn't win even less during later time stamps, he's magically a "balancing nightmare". If he was so unusable that by the time you hit 30 minutes he became a hindrance to even have, why would you pick Lee in the first place? That'd just justify making his early game even stronger as compensation, and you guys would cry even more.

Secondly, WHO THE FUCK CARES about anyone else? The point is that if you become weaker, rather than stronger, as the game progresses, you fell off. That's it. The rest of the fat? Trim it, we don't need it. Stop bringing it up.

Lastly, the absolute highest win rate Lee Sin has right now is 50% in Plat according to League of Graphs. His experienced win rate climbs up to near 56%. What about ANY of this justifies nerfing Lee Sin? He's highly popular as a champ, but he's fits perfectly within the realms of balance. Holy shit stop whining.

PB4UAME1 votes

High skill characters like Lee Sin with as high a pick rate as he has, according to RIOT themselves, should never have a 50% winrate. For a high skill cap champion to be balanced they need a sub 50% winrate. Even more so if their pick rate exceeds 7.5%

By those stats, the only time Lee Sin approaches a balanced winrate is super late into the game, and his early winrate is outright disgustingly overtuned, so yes, Lee Sin, in addition to being metawarping and strangling out jungle diversity is also a balance nightmare.

chipndip11 votes

That applies to general win rates, and that's only as a general guideline because if the general win rate gets moderately high, the "skilled" win rate bleeds over 60%, resulting in nerfs.

If Lee's experienced win rate is 56%, they aren't nerfing Lee. Grow a pair.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

That applies to general win rates, and that's only as a general guideline because if the general win rate gets moderately high, the "skilled" win rate bleeds over 60%, resulting in nerfs.

If Lee's experienced win rate is 56%, they aren't nerfing Lee. Grow a pair.

A high play rate would mean the overall win rate is deflated artificially and skew the perception of their balance stance on the roster, because every guy and their mother are playing as them and there's simply bound to be MANY poor-performers who will drag the statistics down.

Similarly, a champ with low pick rate would normally have their win rate artificially inflated for the same reason but from the other way around.

The fact Lee Sin has an average and "balanced" win rate despite the extreme popularity, strikes to anyone with any forms of mathematical base as being a trouble and not the otherwise.

.................

There are also other considerations outside of that, utility in general tend to go under rader in win rates. Mostly because it's generally not noticed or exploited by newer or less experienced players and require the experienced ones to really make them visible. Hence it's generally observed via picks in higher elo and only in certain scenarios where noticeable in the general pick rate. When a champion gets abnormally high overall pick rate in high elo play when there is no sign pointing to broken raw stats, this generally means the champ is far too flexible for their raw stats and their resultant total power budget is excessive.

An extension from the idea is that, as mentioned by the other guy just above, only champs with either just 1-dimensional or at least straight-forward enough kit can be realistically balanced at 50% win rate. And otherwise dynamic and flexible champs will have their own benchmark on this same metric, in compensation for their utility points. This is also why a quick glance at Dota2 roster balance, it would make League players think the game is hilariously imbalanced due to the very varying win rates; though I have to point out, part of the reasons Dota2's win rates can go to the 60s and down to the 30s at times is also partially contributed to the fact the game is heavily based on counterpicking, but what I'm saying should have already come across.

Hell even in LoL, LB is always intentionally balanced at low 40% win rate, and stated by Riot that she would be broken if she gets anywhere beyond that due to her flexibility. This shows that Riot is clearly familiar with the rationale mentioned just above, but chooses to ignore it on certain champs.

So yeah.

Karfuss4 votes

Excuse me sir, I'll have you know, nips on a man are very useful.

PB4UAME2 votes

You never replied to his actual point.

Him

YES, it IS "fall off", technically. But it is a completely meaningless one because that "fall off" means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lee "falls off" WITH RESPECT TO HIMSELF AND NOT THE ACTUAL GAME does not address or solve the problem he has, which is being good to broken throughout the entire game, even in the phase where he's supposed to be literally useless.

You

Here's the thing: You're wrong. Blatantly wrong. 'Lee sin falls off compared to Lee sin so he still falls off, even though you literally just admitted this, and made your entire point about how Lee Sin does not fall off compared to the rest of the game and the grand scheme of things, but you're still totally wrong because Lee sin falls off comapred only to himself'

Blåbæret2 votes

{quoted}

That is actually the definition of "falling off". You become worse as the game goes on. Even if you have a solid fallback plan after falling off, you still fell off otherwise you wouldn't use a fallback plan.

It's a matter of _how much _ you fall off. Lee Sin has a too good early game to justify his pretty decent late. It's not really a downside of his either, when he dominates the early game so hard the enemy team can't recover.

chipndip11 votes

You DO realize that most Lee Sins in solo queue LOSE more than they WIN, right? Are you saying you're so free you can't beat a champ that's prone to losing more than winning? Is this the claim here?

PB4UAME4 votes

High skill cap champions like Lee Sin should have a sub 50% winrate overall, including games played by their mains, and this number should lower exponentially the higher the play rate.

Lee Sin is the most picked champion in Ranked throughout both European regions, and is second most picked in both NA and Korea. By this, his winrate should be somewhere between 40-45% yet for his mains its 56%+ in plat and higher, while the average for all players starts around 54% at the start of the game, and an hour in is barely below 48%.

EDIT: just checked again, some sources have him at 57-57.5% winrate for the first 20 minutes of the game, even more fucking disgusting.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

If you fall from the top step to a few down you still fell off the top step. He just doesn't fall of hard enough to compensate his pantheon level early game.

Mannny23 votes

LeeSin QQers: What? NO! Lee doesn't fall off he is too powerful in every state of the game nerf plz rito!!!!!!

Saianna24 votes

Lee at least has tools to seamlessly transit from fighter to support-peel or even engager.

Pantheon? Hah. Nope.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

{quoted}

Lee at least has tools to seamlessly transit from fighter to support-peel or even engager.

Pantheon? Hah. Nope.

Pantheon can stay near a carry and do heavy damage to anyone trying to dive onto them...

He can also make picks.

Saianna8 votes

that is called "leeching" at best. Because to "peel" shit out of ADC you need ungodly CC and maybe some support'ish perks.

Sorry, but panth is dead weight in lategame.

Tormentula8 votes

Lee can do whatever he wants. He's strong in damage early, like a lot of early game junglers, but unlike other early game junglers which become useless without kills, lee can peel for his team and setup plays ridiculously well. (Elise is just a cocoon bot late game if she can't one shot the ADC or gets peeled off trying to.)

Mannny3 votes

He still falls off. If you consider 1 good CC option makes him ridiculously OP late game you need to check yourself. No way in hell is Lee's ult good late game more often than not, it's situational.

Tormentula4 votes

Lee is good late game for multiple reasons.

First off, lets tackle what the ult actually does, it Peels off somebody jumping on the carry, or it peels kills for the carry. This makes lee useful all game since even if he's weak, he can still support his team with a point and click ability. Additionally, he can engage or initiate a fight with his ultimate, displacing multiple people and sending a backliner, into the front line. Just because it's his only CC in his ultimate, doesn't mean it's not impactful late game with how strong the ability is (on a low CD). Situational isn't the right word to describe the ult, you may use it in a situational way for a given situation, but you don't only use it when a specific situation is setup.

Secondly, lets not forget the dumb safety lee has. His mobility with his W makes him good late game since late game, he's not as easy to catch out (between Wing or ulting you away). Other early game junglers are usually dead on sight once caught like eve, or even elise needs something to escape to, lee can just dash away or knock away somebody.

Thirdly, lets not exclude the shields he can give to his teammates, they may not be much, but they're certainly there especially for the ADC. Between shielding the ADC, ulting the assassin/diver away from the ADC, and being tanky enough to soak the damage for the ADC lategame, lee transitions to doing a different job, and doing it really well.

Also I'm pretty sure late game lee still nearly one shots most ADCs, he may fall off in damage vs. tanks or divers, but he doesn't fall off that hard against those who don't actually build resistances or health.

Is he "OP" late game? No, never said he was, might need to check yourself there. Is he weak late game? Saying he is would be a false statement.

Mannny2 votes

I already disproved the "ult carry into team" thing. Everything else is either not true or just stupid. He is weak late game compared to other junglers. That's a fact, his winrate drops drastically past the 25 minute mark so even the numbers say so. Stop leaning on your emotional feelings for Lee and start using facts.

Tormentula7 votes

I don't think I'm stating emotional feelings, and more like the general truth you seem to ignore.

His winrate doesn't drop that much past 25 minutes either. He has a 57.52% winrate from 0-25, and then that drops to 55.78% from 25-30. Holy moly, that fall off past 25, hurts him a whole 2% of the time.

His worst winrate is 48% at 40+ minutes. Even that is pretty damn good for a champion who falls off. (and games that last past 40 minutes are pretty rare nowadays)

You're going to need way stronger "evidence" to support your fact besides taking small numbers and expressing them as big to make your fact seem more impactful to your claim.

http://www.champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle?

Arcus Diabolus22 votes

That moment when you can kinda see Mira's patience slowly deteriorating little by little with every thread.

Stay strong, my friend. XD

Penns17 votes

Another thing tho: "Falling off" doesnt magically make you immune to ever being too strong m8

Ben Sharpio3 votes

This isn't applicable in solo queue

Mira Arya Enthe17 votes

Statistics PROVE otherwise. You are wrong no opinions needed.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Pantheon is an awful example. His scaling is one of the worst in the game.... Renekton as well.

Lee sin is another awful example; He never "falls off" that's a complete myth. He scales better than 90% of the cast while retaining huge utility at every stage of the game. Nerf Lee Sin.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

Statistics for League prove otherwise. I'd rather believe facts than opinions.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

By this logic, literally every champion falls off, because team fights add a layer of complexity that a single champion kit is unable to deal with without team cooperation.

Just because the transition to teamfights changes priorities doesn't mean that your champion stopped being effective when they can still contribute a lot.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Bullshit. Many champions even get stronger in team fights vs 1v1. Like Sej or Twitch.

Fed by Snu Snu2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ImuJBcNB,comment-id=000e0001,timestamp=2017-04-30T00:48:07.595+0000)

Bullshit. Many champions even get stronger in team fights vs 1v1. Like Sej or Twitch.

Too bad that as long as Lee Sin exists Sejuani won't be viable because his very early game existence just defines who gets to enter the jungle and who doesn't.

Mira Arya Enthe13 votes

Too bad that has nothing to do with the idea of falling off and is a separate issue.

Fed by Snu Snu3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ImuJBcNB,comment-id=000e000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-30T01:02:38.326+0000)

Too bad that has nothing to do with the idea of falling off and is a separate issue.

You can't fall off if you never take off.

http://i.imgur.com/K0KPgis.jpg

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ImuJBcNB,comment-id=000e0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-30T01:04:22.774+0000)

You can't fall off if you never take off.

http://i.imgur.com/K0KPgis.jpg

This pretty much sums it up.

Lee Sin is much stronger early than anyone that noticeably outscales him late, regardless of whether it's a team fight or single duel..... and even if he gets outscaled, his utility is valuable all game (AoE stun/AoE slow).

Supreme Senpai694 votes

Lee Sin being strong has nothing to do with the point of the thread though is what he's saying. Or she maybe. I don't know tbh. Lee falls off and Sej gets stronger. These being generalizations though.

OHminus5 votes

^

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Don't forget most mages like Brand or Azir. They love teamfights.

deltemp9515125 votes

There are certain champions that are specifically built for team fights wtf are you talking about?! xD

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