How is that fair? AP champions only benefit from the AP that they build since there is no base AP. So they only get the multiplier on the gold they spent specifically on AP.
Why do AD champs get to double dip on getting their total AD buffed instead of just what they itemized for (bonus AD), giving them hundreds of gold of AD for free (which actually matters to them)?
It should be +% to bonus AD instead of total.
Pyrodinium2 votesIsn't AP cheaper than AD?
DrCyanide2 votesYes, but relatively few abilities have 100% AP ratios, while every auto attack has a 100% AD ratio (minimum, crit + crit damage can boost it to nearly 300% AD ratio).
Ralanr1 votesAnd every auto attack is reduced by armor.
With a few exceptions.
fSBMHn443r1 votesYou are actually wrong, kalistas basic attacks only scale 90% and not 100%
Aazzlano1 votesSee my other reply. It doesn't matter how much each costs since its a % increase not a flat increase. But AD is favored here of course.
G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TR1 votesPrice does matter though, at least a bit. If you can buy (for example, pulling numbers out of my ass) 100 AP for 200 gold and 50 AD for 200 gold, a 10% increase would give you 20 AP but only 10 AD. That combined with deathcap's percent increase means AP should get a larger number boost that ad per gold spent on the stats.
Aazzlano1 votesYeah see but that's you pulling numbers out of your ass. That's the problem. In the actual game it doesn't work like that. I'm going to not count Runes/Masteries because they could vary and they just make things more complicated.
AD is 35g per point. AP is 22g per point.
Let's use Talon as a base point cause idk I like using Talon for these things. He has ~68 base AD at level 6.
One Infernal Drake gives 8%, which means about 5.5 extra AD just from his base AD. That's almost 200g worth of stats for free. Meanwhile, to get a similar amount of gold value of AP "for free", you would need.. 108 AP. So you need over TWO THOUSAND GOLD invested in AP in order to just BREAK EVEN with what AD champions get for free at ~level 6. By level 18, you would need 3780 gold invested in AP just to break even. Almost FOUR THOUSAND gold. Oh and that's with AD champions not buying A SINGLE AD ITEM.
Alright so let's take a typical Lucian build since he is the most played ADC. The build has Youmou, Cleaver, IE, and BT as AD items. That gives 255 bonus AD. With his 98 base AD, he would have ~353 AD. One Infernal would thus give 28 bonus AD. That's 988 gold in bonus AD. In order to match that gold value, you would need to get 45 AP. That's about 562 AP needed in order to match that. So you need 12,355 gold in AP to match those stats. While he only needed 8925 gold in AD to get those stats.
It's not balanced.
FACE THE WlND1 votesAP is cheaper and you get much more of it than you get AD.
Aazzlano2 votes?????????? AP might be cheaper by the number, but what does that matter? It's a % increase.
If you have one infernal dragon, you get 8% more AD/AP. So if you have let's say.. 200 AP at level 11. You have 4350 gold's worth in AP. You get 8% more of that 4350 gold, meaning you get 348 gold worth of AP ((4350 * 0.08) = (200 *0.08 * 21.75))
At level 11, let's say you are playing, idk, Talon. You have 82 base AD. That is 2870 gold worth of AD. 8% of that is ~230 gold. And that's what you get for FREE, not counting any items you bought. So you only need ~42 AD in order to break even with AP champions, meaning if you literally have anything over a BF Sword while the AP champ has spent 4350 gold on raw AP, you are on at least even pacing. For approximately one third the gold. How is that balanced? Why should they get that much extra AD for free when AP champs have to buy thousands of gold (and multiples of the amount of gold AD has to spend in AD) more just to be as efficient as them.
And yes I know that AP champs will still get the % bonus from their base AD but let's be real that is almost irrelevant. Outside of champs like Ekko and Fizz of course.
FACE THE WlND1 votesOh my god you're unintelligent... And you clearly aren't open to anyone else's opionion so I don't see why you even made this thread.
L Psy Kongroo1 votesThe counterpart to base AD is the base damage on abilities. If abilities did zero damage without building AP, then you'd have a point.
Aazzlano3 votesWhat? Abilities that scale off of AD also have base damages.
And if they are the counterpart, then why can't the base damage of magic damage abilities be increased by 8% as well?
L Psy Kongroo1 votesWhat? Abilities that scale off of AD also have base damages.
And if they are the counterpart, then why can't the base damage of magic damage abilities be increased by 8% as well?
Re-read my first sentence. Also, magic damage IS being amplified by 8%, based on the user's AP. It works exactly the same for AD champs. Champions who are meant to build AP will always have SOME AP. For example, most mid laners have ~15-20 AP at the very start of the game due to runes and masteries. Throw in their starting Doran's Ring and it brings them to about 35 AP. That AP, plus the base damage of each ability, makes them on par with the base AD of most AD champions. And that's just at level 1. By the time a fire dragon is actually taken, their AP will likely be higher than the AD of their counterparts.
Basically, it comes down to this: AD champions have base AD and bonus AD from items. AP champions have AP from items and base damages on their abilities. Fire drake amps total AP and total AD, and at the end of the day the base damage on abilities usually makes up for the damage discrepancy.
Aazzlano1 votesAP is being amplified by 8%. That is not the same as an 8% damage amp. The base damage is unaffected. And you are implying that AD spells don't have base damage. I don't know why you are trying to make it seem like they don't. Not only do they have base damage, but their scaling is absolutely insane on some abilities. Like Talon's Q at Rank 5 has a base damage of 200 with a scaling of 100% base ad + 230% bonus AD. With just a single Q.
Back on topic, for autoattacks, the base damage IS being affected by Infernal Dragon, where the base damage for spells is not. It is being amped by 8% AND it also adds that amp when factoring AD ratio for abilities (both bonus and total AD). If you take the raw gold value, just being level 13 on a Talon gets you 8% of ~3000 gold worth of AD FOR FREE when you have infernal dragon. With no runes, masteries, or items bought. Because you get 8% of ~90 base AD, which would have costed you ~3000 gold to get the Infernal Dragon buff to get you that much extra AD. Meaning, as far as Infernal Dragon buff is concerned, you have to have THOUSANDS MORE gold spent in AP in order to start having it be more gold efficient for a mage than it is for an AD. You don't get as much gold efficiency with it because you don't have base AP. So while AD gets hundreds of gold worth of AD for free immediately when they get the buff, you have to spend thousands upon thousands in order to just break even with what they get off of their BASE AD. Not including any AD items they buy.
ComatosePhoenix1 votesdoes it need to be fair? All champions benefit from AD, not all champions benefit from AP.
Rebonack1 votesWhat I want to know is why it doesn't just provide a percentile damage boost.
Why no love for Tanks?
The buff is already massively tilted in favor of ADCs. Making it boost base AD would only make that even more pronounced.
Aazzlano1 votesIt does boost base AD. Well it doesn't boost it directly but it gives bonus AD from their total AD, which includes their base AD. Which is stupid.
PermabannedGaren1 votesYou know, the buff is already shit on guys like Dr. Mundo and Volibear. Can you not try to make it even more shit on them than it is?
The buff should honestly just increase damage dealt to enemies by a percentage, rather than increasing AD and AP. That way champions like them who deal good damage without building AD or AP can benefit from it.
Aazzlano1 votesShould Ocean Drake be changed so that Manaless champs can benefit from the whole effect too?
Anyway, if it did damage dealt then fine. But having it increase base AD is incredibly biased against Mages, since it gives HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of gold more in AD than it does in AP at pretty much stage of the game.
PermabannedGaren1 votesShould Ocean Drake be changed so that Manaless champs can benefit from the whole effect too?
No, because the health regen is enough to make it an attractive choice to them.
On the other hand infernal drake does has a very small effect on champions like Dr. Mundo, Volibear, any tank really, Nasus, etc. But you still have to take it, because it's a huge advantage for the enemy.
Anyway, if it did damage dealt then fine. But having it increase base AD is incredibly biased against Mages, since it gives HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of gold more in AD than it does in AP at pretty much stage of the game.
My change would also make it no longer perform the same function as mountain dragon, but better.