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Suggestion for future Champion Spotlights: SHOW COUNTERPLAY

darkdill··91 votes·12,698 views

Looking at Kalista's Champion Spotlight is going to make people unfamiliar with her scream "OVERPOWERED!" until they croak. Frankly, a lot of your more recent Champion Spotlights have done this too, only highlighting the Champion's super-powered strengths while not giving any advice on how to beat them.

While you might go "Figure it out for yourself!", that's not a good idea. (EDIT) Some players, with less experience, will not be able to look at something and see both the pros and cons. They will only see the pros and be led to believe it to be overpowered.

I could see that Kalista's kit is very vulnerable to direct-target crowd controls (i.e. Annie, Maokai, Ryze) and to power-knockbacks (Tristana, Lee Sin, Alistar) that separate her from her Soul-Bound, but the majority of those teenagers playing this game are just going to b!tch and whine instead of thinking.

When Blizzard was doing its demonstrations of new units for Legacy of the Void, they showed for each unit how to beat them or highlighted their costs/risks/etc. For instance, the Ravager? Micro to dodge its special attack. Speed Banshees? Use Oracles to negate their cloaking and then kill them with Phoenixes. Hercs? Use Roaches or Zealots.

But Riot? They don't show how to beat their new Champions. And even if you do show them that, will it always work? No. Good players could counter your counterplay (i.e. OUTPLAY).

Please do this in future Champion Spotlights so that every new Champion doesn't look broken.

113 Comments

RiotRiot Scruffy51 votes

I actually think this is a great suggestion. Considering it is a core design value that we work very hard to include in all of our champ designs, we should expose it!

That being said, the champ spotlights have just been getting better and better every time. That team is killing it IMO.

Nahara8 votes

I think one way this could be worked into the Champion Spotlights is a "what to look out for" section that describes where a champion is weak and how that weakness might get taken advantage of if you're not being careful.

dr zoidberg esq15 votes

https://mlpchan.net/arch/src/mtr_1373353499538.png

Rozzeta3 votes

I actually think this is a great suggestion. Considering it is a core design value that we work very hard to include in all of our champ designs, we should expose it!

That being said, the champ spotlights have just been getting better and better every time. That team is killing it IMO.

I remember Champion spotligts started doing that after Leona's (the last one I remember in which Phreak killed everyone with a 3 level advantage). From then on, battles seemed more fair and there were even short sequences in which he died, pointing out the champions weakness. I'm not sure why this actually stopped doint this, which makes the videos worse than they were before.

Karlyr1 votes

Can I have an example of lanning counterplay of kalista ? because honnestly I can't think of any.

SquirrellyOtter8 votes

Caitlyn.

Daedalus8713 votes

Counter =/= Counterplay

Rock Rockburgh3 votes

I assume she'll be fairly squishy and/or low-damage, to make up for her high mobility, so try getting in close to force her off the wave.

Finis Phoenix1 votes

lol yeah. if you run at her she basic jumps far away. Q jumps far away. basic jump far away. Oh are you low? maybe i should run? oh look at that she is dashing to me now. sweet.

Rock Rockburgh1 votes

Take advantage of her ability to back away. Bait her into jumping out of range and throwing her Q, then turn and run. You'll probably be faster than she is if she can't attack. (So naturally, this doesn't work around minions.)

TehNACHO1 votes

Notice that:

Kalista is significantly weaker in straight up fights compared to other ADCs without her Soulbound (this is important for champions with powerful disengage like Alistar who can separate people, or those with hard engage like Leona who can take any tiny opportunity and turn it into a fight (like the support left for a few seconds to ward))

Kalista has incredibly bad wave clear relative to many other ADCs and, ignoring ult, no AOE effects. If you can ward well and have a good bully type lane (let's say Caitlyn and Morgana), laning phase would simply be beyond easy if you know how to properly shove lanes and force Kalista to either farm under tower or get constantly harassed.

Kalista's passive scales on boots. This means if she wants to optimize for her dash, she sacrifices a lot in other raw stats. For example, if you as the ADC rush BF sword and she rushes Berserker's Greaves and a Doran's, you as the BF Sword champion have the advantage in any possible fight. On the other hand, if Kalista rushes BF sword, this makes it significantly easier to stick to her if you have an engage type support (Thresh/Leona, for example). Keep an eye on her item build and play accordingly.

Kalista does not hyper scale nearly as well as other auto attack heavy ADCs.

junglerboy161 votes

I haven't played her yet, but just looking at her kit, she seems to rely heavily on a few things in particular, mostly utility and teamwork. Her passive looks like it will mostly be annoying for if you are trying to land skill shots, because other than that, it appears to move you roughly the same distance as if you animation canceled properly (this will probably make her better for lower skill players who are bad at kiting and orb walking, like myself). Her Q spear looks like it will provide pretty annoying harass in lane since it passes through units that it kills, and also passes on their rend stacks (this could lead to some surprising burst combos, i.e. get 2 stacks on all minions between her and you, throw a Q to get them all and shift their stacks to you, and then pop the stacks) it seems like this would be annoying more than anything, and if they spam it for mobility or poke, they will probably run themselves oom pretty quick. Her W seems like a mixed bag. The passive is really strong if both she and her linked ally attack you (I'd expect a nerf from this tbh), but the active is pretty mediocre simply because of how long its cool down is. Her E seems like it would be pretty good early on for getting those last bits of damage in a trade for a kill, kind of like Twitch's expunge, but late it won't make much difference since most ADCs will get you in around 5 shots if you are not a bruiser/tank. Her ult seems to be her weakness actually, if she is alone, it is 100% useless. If she is with her linked champ, it looks moderately powerful if well coordinated.

Final conclusion: pick a duelist/assassin with mobility and decent burst. Try to catch her out alone and back off if her link is with her. Late game, if she didn't get ahead, you will likely win 1v1, but I couldn't tell. I'm guessing Vayne may be a good pick against her (Keep in mind this is still just speculation since I haven't played as/against her yet).

P.S. Has anyone tried doing two utility ADCs bot (Ashe+Kalista, Varus+Kalista, etc.)? It seems like the combined utility and damage would parallel or exceed that of a "standard" support+ADC bot combo.

chumbler1 votes

I actually think this is a great suggestion. Considering it is a core design value that we work very hard to include in all of our champ designs, we should expose it!

That being said, the champ spotlights have just been getting better and better every time. That team is killing it IMO.

You only include counterplay when your intent is making (or, more likely, reworking) a champion to be not a viable choice.

Thanks for the laugh, though.

Angry Monster7 votes

While you might go "Figure it out for yourself!", I call that toxic. Some players are, frankly, too stupid (sorry, I won't sugarcoat it).

Your post is pretty toxic.

darkdill5 votes

Only because I have to get my point across. Being nice 24/7 doesn't get you results.

Stephenizgod11 votes

or you could have said "Some players, with less experience, will not be able to look at something and see both the pros and cons. They will only see the pros and be lead to believe it to be overpowered."

Gets the point across and is nicer

darkdill6 votes

Noted, quoted.

AetherKingdom6 votes

While you might go "Figure it out for yourself!", I call that toxic. Some players are, frankly, too stupid (sorry, I won't sugarcoat it). I could see that Kalista's kit is very vulnerable to direct-target crowd controls (i.e. Annie, Maokai, Ryze)

Who isn't weak to that?

and to power-knockbacks (Tristana, Lee Sin, Alistar) that separate her from her Soul-Bound, but the majority of those teenagers playing this game are just going to b!tch and whine instead of thinking.

Once again, who isn't.

LF< Kalista Passive to be reduced by slows. LF< Any non gap closer melee to have a chance at catching a non bronze Kalista. LF< Kalista not to have a 20% max hp magic damage chunk on her W.

Zeralyos3 votes

I could see that Kalista's kit is very vulnerable to direct-target crowd controls (i.e. Annie, Maokai, Ryze)

Who isn't weak to that?

Mundo, Irelia, and Gangplank, to name a few.

AetherKingdom1 votes

I could see that Kalista's kit is very vulnerable to direct-target crowd controls (i.e. Annie, Maokai, Ryze)

Who isn't weak to that?

Mundo, Irelia, and Gangplank, to name a few.

Mundo is affected just like everyone else, GP and Irelia aren't as weak to it I'll agree.

MrBuffington3 votes

Mundo has CC reduction on his W

AetherKingdom5 votes

Mundo has CC reduction on his W

Actually didn't know that, ty.

Kingsgrave6 votes

They actually did cover it with Sion but not with Kalista.

inb4 ranged bias jokes

TeemoHunter13373 votes

how bout u get a life and find your own counterplay?

Direwolfiez19 votes

How 'bout you stop being an ass and actually come up with a real reason that his suggestion shouldn't be implemented?

TeemoHunter13372 votes

How 'bout you stop being an ass and actually come up with a real reason that his suggestion shouldn't be implemented?

cuz its stupid.

they bring up a counterplay on the video and people QQ "RITO Y U LIE. THIS COUNTERPLAY NOT WORK. CHAMP OP.RITO U LIE NO COUNTERPLAY"

it will only bring more criticsm to rito if they provide a counterplay and u guys say it wont work

Direwolfiez11 votes

cuz its stupid.

That's not a reason, that's an opinion. Try again.

they bring up a counterplay on the video and people QQ "RITO Y U LIE. THIS COUNTERPLAY NOT WORK. CHAMP OP.RITO U LIE NO COUNTERPLAY"

Considering they're the people that made the champ, they should have an adequate understanding of their weaknesses.

it will only bring more criticsm to rito if they provide a counterplay and u guys say it wont work

You're relying on the possibility of something happening that, so far, has no indication that it will come true. Once again, not a real reason not to implement it.

TeemoHunter13371 votes

[deleted]

Direwolfiez8 votes

Now you're resorting to ad hominems because you lack the capability to come up with a legitimate counterpoint. This just gets funnier and funnier.

TeemoHunter13371 votes

[deleted]

Direwolfiez9 votes

You obviously care enough about my opinion to keep replying, and if you didn't care about this thread, then why are you still here? You obviously care enough about it to keep insisting that it's moronic instead of just downvoting and leaving.

Another opinion, and it takes two to argue. You're acting like it's entirely my fault we're arguing, when in fact the blame rests entirely on both of us. You could just stop posting in this thread, and the argument would stop. I don't want to stop posting because, frankly, this is hilarious, so keep replying if you want this argument to keep going.

TeemoHunter13371 votes

[deleted]

Direwolfiez1 votes

*Bro

My window is already open, and it's raining where I live, so try again.

I find my arguments amusing, so that's enough for me. As for how much I care about League, that's subjective, since you don't even know me, and I also find it hilarious that you act like you know me well enough to talk about my family. Keep grasping at straws; I can make you look stupid all day.

Direwolfiez3 votes

lol Almost all of his posts were deleted and he hasn't replied to my latest post. Logic wins against stupidity.

Tis a nice day4 votes

I wish it were always this way with everyone.

Direwolfiez2 votes

I know, right? Sheer stubbornness and logic should win more often.

acepil0t7 votes

I find it amusing.

Direwolfiez7 votes

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130710202055/degrassi/images/5/54/At-Your-Service-fili-and-kili-33427162-500-250.gif

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Ignore him. He is just a representative of his main, he is trying to bring Teemo's toxicity here. His comments were deleted :( What did he say to you? I already made my popcorn, don't want to throw it away.

Direwolfiez2 votes

Basically started saying OP's idea shouldn't be implemented because he thought it was dumb, then started trying to say I was a basement-dwelling agoraphobic and other gems of insults. It was quite hilarious; he never could come up with a real reason they shouldn't show counterplay in the Champ spotlights.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

thanks, now I imagine the conversation while eating my cold overnight popcorn :D

Black Star 12995 votes

TROLL ALERT IN THREAD, "SUGGESTIONS.... SHOW COUNTERPLAY" UNDER ALIAS OF "TEEMOHUNTER1337" ASSUME VERY HUNGRY AND DANGEROUS DO NOT FEED AT ALL COSTS.

(saw someone do this, this guy is obviously trolling, don't feed please.)

Direwolfiez2 votes

Well, he or a mod seems to have deleted a majority of his posts, so I think I won in this case.

BetaDude401 votes

You mean me? You forgot to flag the Troll Alert with Trundles. Still, welcome to the club.

EDIT: This post specifically? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/tips-tricks/PgEy6AYN-to-adc-by-support?comment=00020000000000010000000100000000

Velasan2 votes

Kalista has a lot of utility but not too much direct power.

They would not show counter play in the spotlights because it's no fun to have a character shut down before you even get to try it.

Counterplay comes naturally when a champion has been around for a little while.

Xenohaz5 votes

(Playing devil's advocate here, I don't entirely agree with what I'm about to say, but I feel it needs to be said) I just imagine this thought process occurring to relatively inexperienced players: "Wow, it's great that Riot cares so much about counterplay! It's difficult to learn this game when so many champs feel so unbeatable. Oh cool, they're releasing a new champion! I'm probably not going to get it, since I have so much to learn already, but it's a nice thing to see. Wait, she can do all of this? What am I supposed to do against that?! Well I'm screwed." Sure, more experienced people will see ways to get around her capabilities, but to people who are fairly new to the game, it's not so clear.

Tis a nice day2 votes

I'd say one additional counterplay to Kalista is when she faces off against another power ADC such as Kogmaw, Draven, or Lucian. All that kiting isn't going to do much against someone with the same range as you.

TelQuel2 votes

I am merely echoing the herd here, but I think counterplay is a great idea. This also helps introduce relatively new players to the concept of counterplay and gives them an idea of how to deal with new champions as they are released. It's a great way to encourage the sort of critical thinking required when counter-picking champs in a ranked queue. In a perfect world, it would also cut down on the amount of the "so and so is OP!" complaints that seem to follow every new champ release by showing that these news champs can in fact be countered.

Cenobite Azaziel2 votes

I would like to see lee sin new spot light after that change. "The blind monk counterplay is hoping that your enemy s*cks. If he plays it decentely, hug your tower and hope he gets out scaled."

Fury and Emperor2 votes

It's hard to show the ban phase in champion select in a video in a dynamic and appealing way.

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