And had the knowledge to program anything, I'd make them provide threat through zoning by having heavily telegraphed abilities that REALLY hurt when they land. Basically a mountain punching you will hurt by the sheer weight alone, and it'll be so slow that you can see it coming a mile away and have enough time to dodge.
But not every tank can be as glorious as Sion.
Jbels30 votesYeah, Sion feels like a one hit wonder. Everything about him is just perfect for a tank. But how do you recreate that?
Ralanr4 votesHow do recreate it without making Sion less unique?
Frankly you don't. Outside of maybe those special "move while it's charging" forms of CC.
BLACK REALM GOD5 votesi think the point is to not recreate that. a tank doesnt have to be like sion. i think mmo's and rpgs have made players expect something to be cookie cutter when in reality it doesnt have to be that way. if you dual wield as a tank for example you'll have faster attack speed, shorter reach, and lower damage, but if you're putting out twice as many attacks per second or more then you're still achieving the same end game effect just in a different way.
the problem with league is that a lot of the damage stats and defensive stats are designed in a way that promotes percentage growth more so than linear growth.
so in conclusion there are many ways to make a "tank" and the definitions of what make a tank are solely limited by creativity. of course there is always going to be the "ideal" generic tank with a sword and shield thats bulky and has high health and defense with a taunt and a cleave a low movement speed and minor regen, but that's just one of the many ways to make a tank and it isnt specialized and it will never be as effective as one that does specialize.
same goes for all of the 6 roles
Vectros5 votesAs a Sion main, I wouldn't want every tank to be like Sion. Not because it would take away from his identity (though that part is true), but against a mobile comp (like Ez/Leblanc/Lee Sin/Kled/Rakan), you'll never hit your abilities. I've had far too many games like this, where I basically end up doing nothing-it doesn't matter how many times I hit my E, if they have a dash/blink, my Q will never hit them.
Over Innsmouth4 votesI'm still adamant that we need more taunts.
Ralanr6 votesI personally don't think taunts are the answer. They don't really feel interactive to me.
Over Innsmouth3 votesMy appreciation from taunts is that they enforce aggro, whether or not you take reduced damage you're a tank, you want enemies to attack you over your allies. Personally, I think taunts go a long way towards fulfilled the Warden fantasy, but I understand if you're not a fan.
My ideas are just that, they're not always great.
Ralanr2 votesMy issue with tanks is how they feel to fight against as you lose control over your character.
Over Innsmouth3 votesUnderstandable. I don't want taunts (or anything really) to be as reliable as Rammus's point-click or Maokai's W, but I still think there should be a place for reliability in a tank. Not all of them, but enough to give new players or inexperienced tanks something to work with.
Champion Skin4 votesTaunts are a worse for of CC unless it also negate the damage taken from the auto attacks...
Unless you are able to taunt an enemy under tower, have thornmail, have abilities which makes it beneficial to be attacked.... or if the target is melee so you can drag the champion in one direction (less likely to work on ranged champions as you need to move out of their range before they start moving)
ModCaptainMårvelous4 votesYour problem there is that how do you make all tanks unique in that case?
Look at the general problem with Maokai: He's so general and "does everything" that he becomes the bar. So let's pretend you get your way and rework tanks that way. How do you differentiate them? Which one has the best damage and which one has teh strongest avoidance. And no, a sliding scale of "SUPER EASY TO DODGE but does GODLIKE DAMAGE" doesn't work. Because then you have someone who has a giant pixel beam that moves at two inches a second but if it hits you insta-die. That doesn't feel like counterplay at that point, it feels stupid.
Besides, Sion should feel special. Otherwise he stops feeling like Sion and starts feeling like "Undead Maokai" vs. "Water Maokai" (Naut) vs. "Sexy maokai" (Sejuani) vs. "Fat Maokai" (Gragas) vs. "NInja Maokai" (Shen) vs. etc etc etc.
Big Lincoln4 votesgiving them other strengths beyond having an abundance of CC would be a good start
ModCaptainMårvelous3 votesThat's actually interesting because you might run into the problem of "Am I making this character too support oriented?", which can be another problem with tanks. Take poppy for example, who was pushed into the support role for a short time because her disruptive power was in her kit and not in items, meaning she could get away with going full-on defensive.
The other issue is that it's a fine line. Too little strength and they're CC bots. Too much strength and they're APCs/ADCs but with a shitton of CC. It's not a design conundrum I envy tbh.
Big Lincoln2 votesWell, tanks are support oriented by design, they just serve a different function.
Take Maokai for example. I would contest that despite his ult being very generally powerful, that it provided unique power, because other tanks could not offer what his ult does. And I think that Riot should have kept the concept of it as an "intercepting damage for my team" rather than giving him more CC when he's already a fairly disruptive champion. It needed to change, but I don't think it warranted being replaced.
I feel like there's a very large potential for tanks to dip into, with defensive utilities besides straight-up crowd control that Riot could tap into, that they're not. And while we're on that subject, I'm a little disappointed that initiators all have to have dashes, rather than something a little less cut-and-paste, but I doubt that's gonna change because dashes look nice for highlight reels
Ralanr1 votesSion has no dashes.
LankPants1 votesHe actually does, his ult is a dash and I highly doubt he would function at all as a champion without it.
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesThat issue is compounded because Maokai's ult gives a ton of invisible power. Yes, Riot loves their buzz words, but shaving 200 damage off of a 600 damage ability isn't really noticeable. It also doesn't help that the ult is so stupidly powerful at being a tank ability because it also applied to Maokai. Sure, it was unique, but nothing super expressive. (His original ult where you placed it somewhere was WAY better in terms of skill and being interesting for zone denial.)
I disagree that tanks HAVE to have dashes. That said, in being an initiator, you need a way to get in. This isn't unique to LoL either. In DOTA, if you're an initiator and you don't have a quick way in? Blink dagger is almost always a core or sometimes first purchase. Initiators ALWAYS need a way in. Be it flash, a dash or otherwise. Alternatively, if you lack a dash, you need to make up for it in a stupidly good way. Rammus has no point and click dash (No, I do not count powerball as a dash) but he makes up for it by being one of the tankiest bastards in the game. In addition, while a dash might look nice, a giant mega ult looks WAY cooler. Sure, it might be incredible viable but a massive wave of roots slamming towards you looks pretty amazing in a highlight reel.
Big Lincoln2 votesi can't think of an initiator that doesn't have a dash besides Kennen, who's still usually reliant on flash to do it. you're right though; they either need a way in through mobility or having ranged CC to start them off. in the case of sejuani i would have rather had the latter since I've never liked her Q
for Maokai I would've just changed it to be a damage redirect to himself instead of being a flat reduction. encourages decision making and it would have worked amazingly well with his new passive, to boot
Big Lincoln2 votesi think some tanks should be fast-ish since some are meant to run around in fights and do shit, like Amumu
also because it just wouldn't end well with how stupidly mobile some champions are, tanks with fast/instant CC are a necessary counter to their bullshit. some tanks could be like Sion but we would have to up their CC durations massively to compensate
Ralanr12 votesIdk why we just can't get a tank with the grounded CC.
deadlychuck5 votesBecause that would require riot to knock their untouchables off of their pedestals.
Which i suspect they are heavily against considering how much of a problem they presented malzahar as, when his only real strength was countering their untouchables like lee, ahri, yasuo, exc.
Ralanr2 votesHow the hell do knock ups relate the Malz?
BIAKaboose10 votesYou mentioned the Grounded CC, and he mentioned that it would cause the same issue as Malzahar (His ult) of messing up Riot's list of "We want these people in tournaments but this thing counters them". If a tank had a decently easy to apply grounded effect then champions like Lee Sin, Ahri, and Yasuo would have solid nearly hard counters, which is why Malzahar is seen as so much of a problem.
Suppression can only be solved by CC immunity before application, or a cleansing effect from GP oranges or QSS/Mercurial, but Grounded presents even more of a problem since the only counter to it is Black Shield from Morgana if it's a persistent effect similar to Cassiopeias. Flashy champions make Riot money, so they want the flashy champions to have free reign, or something very close to it, and mobility sells like hotcakes in terms of flashiness in people's eyes.
deadlychuck2 votesNail Head
NineTailedMystic1 votesMalzahar wasn't a problem because he "countered the flashy champions", it was because he forced a QSS buy on any carry the enemy team had. Or what about his completely non-interactive laning phase of "push push push never oom because of E's Mana return"? Otherwise he dumped his virtually point/click combo without anything you can do about it. Of course, these problems weren't solved with his rework. At all. Now he's just garbage.
Also, punishing mobility always punishes immobility harder. There has been one exception to this in Poppy W.
BIAKaboose1 votesWas more explaining the thought process of the previous person's comment than my own thought process. I've seen what Urgot can do to people, Riot doesn't purely play favorites with mobility, it is usually just that damage dealers are either nerfed/buffed or maintained based on how good it looks when they do it/to shut people up for a little while.
NineTailedMystic1 votesThere have definitely been love taps when the circlejerk gets too strong.
junglerboy162 votesI think adding more abilities that are movement interruptors, along the lines of Veigar's cage or Poppy's W, would be a better route. It doesn't 100% nullify mobility, but anyone using mobility without thinking will probably get knocked to the ground, while not 100% eliminating the effectiveness of mobility or being as universal a CC as say a root.
BIAKaboose1 votesYeah, I think Poppy's W turned out pretty well, she can use it to block important mobility spells, but only one, so if you block the wrong dash on say, Lee Sin, you stop his engage but then he just bails, but if you stop him from getting out you effectively have him trapped for a while.
Cassiopeia on the other hand has an ability that is far more subjective in its use and I think that it is actually a pretty bad ability. Having the minimum range means that if she gets engaged on she can't keep them from running afterwards, and if she needs to not get engaged on she doesn't have the freedom to place the ability where she needs it. Scissor legs (I actually just forgot her name, haven't been playing much lately) just slides around it, Zed just flat out throws a shadow through it and does his thing anyway, Malphite only cares about it if it lands directly on him before he ults, which it shouldn't ever do since his ult has better range. She just really doesn't have anything going for her to stop most of the threats it is designed to deal with.
It's a matter of good ability, wrong character. Cassiopeia needs an immediate answer to divers at closer ranges because she needs to be at those closer ranges to deal her own damage, while someone with longer ranges (Some kind of support I think would be a good fit) would love to have a slowing field that also prevent enhanced mobility.
Melledoneus3 votesThat would be a perfect mechanic for Malphite. Instead of slamming and slowing attack speed, he creates an area where enemies cannot use mobility. Or he can have that on his ult instead of a knockup.
NineTailedMystic1 votesBecause punishing mobility always punishes immobility more.
Ralanr2 votesAre you being sarcastic or do you actually thinking that's a bad thing?
NineTailedMystic2 votesWasn't the context "Tanks with fast/instant CC are necessary to counter mobile bullshit"? Because, while Grounding does hinder mobile champions they can just use their mobility to not be in that position in the first place. But then the Tank can just walk up to the immobile champ, ground them to stop their Flash, and kill them/get them killed.
If you think it's cool to punish immobility harder, hey go nuts.
Ralanr3 votesIt punishes mobility much harder then immobility. And there are times when you can't flash anyway.
chipndip11 votesHeavily telegraphed abilities are easily dodged abilities. As a fight initiator, do you think you can do your job if you're so telegraphed?
Ralanr7 votesBy forcing people to avoid me.
Sometimes Sion doesn't need to hit his ult. Just make people avoid it in the right direction.
Also obviously I'd want some control in my telegraphed abilities to give skill impression. Like how Sion's ult and Q works.
Sion is really just the best designed tank in league.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesA terrifyingly good blitzcrank doesn't need to grab someone, to make them flee into danger.
chipndip11 votesThe actual grab has no delay...
ZT Xperimentor2 votesYou never spend mana on a hook you never throw, lol.
chipndip11 votesBut the hook itself is not telegraphed
ZT Xperimentor1 votesMore telegraphed than some abilities, at least it has a sound effect.
chipndip11 votes...that claim makes zero sense.
"My attack comes out with no delay, but because it has a sound effect, it's telegraphed."
By this logic you should be able to dodge Annie's ult. (Obvious hyperbole in case you're about to seriously respond to that part)
underscores2224 votesThe hook cast itself has no delay (or maybe a very small cast time), but the travel of the hook does take some time - sometimes enough to allow someone to change direction to dodge it. Additionally, Blitz usually attempts to maneuver in range before casting, and it can be fairly obvious what he is about.
While not as telegraphed as Thresh (who doesn't face the direction of the skillshot when winding up) it is still somewhat telegraphed by the player's actions.
ProfDrDeath1 votesSo, what do you think about Mao's new ult, then?
You can see it coming from a mile away, after all - not that that is a bad thing, given how freaking huge it is...
Ralanr5 votesI don't like Mao's ult because of the lack of control and the poor payoff.
Edit: it's only good for flanking basically. It does require more planning than his previous ult though.
Big Lincoln11 votesi would say the lack of 'satisfaction' is a big factor in why it sucks
slow-moving branches with a very 'meh' visual when it hits someone compared to Sion turning into a human battering ram with sound effects that match
Ralanr2 votesI wasn't taking into the visuals and satisfaction, but I'll agree on those.
BIAKaboose4 votesNot only that, but unless you have Lux/Velkoz they can just freely stand in a straight line and only one person gets hit (unless that got changed? I sort of stopped paying attention to the changes on PBE), and with decent attention being paid it will more than likely just inconvenience the tank who doesn't even take damage from it because Janna and Lulu exist and are currently strong.
Though I definitely agree that the impact visuals could provide way more oomph. The travelling branches being slow gives the impression of weight and power steadily bearing down on you and then it just sort of... poofs into smaller vines for like a second and does pretty laughable damage.
Champion Skin4 votesIt is also quite weak gameplay wise
It is so slow that is useless as an engage... and it can be body blocked which is made easier by how slow it is... being slow wouldn't be too bad if it is used to zone or force the enemy team away from an objective however the enemy team can just group up behind their tank and stand their ground (all that will happen is that their tank will be rooted for 0.6 - 2.6 seconds)
And on top of all of that... even if the darn thing lands... it is a root which means the enemy is still fully able to fight back and cast their abilities (as long as they are in range to do so and it isn't movement abilities... Jarvan E + Q is a unique case which works while rooted)
As far as I can see there are mostly only two ways of making use of his ult... When things go badly to try and disengage and get away from the enemy team... Or as a follow up to his W (it only adds 0.6 seconds of CC but it still something)
Flanking is also possible but Maokai doesn't have any mobility except his W and his ult is so slow... which means that if he mess up the enemy team might just turn around and fight his team 5v4 while he is chasing the enemy team not getting much done
Champion Skin4 votesI think Mao's new ult doesn't have many uses.... It's main uses will probably be as a disengage to get away from the enemy team Or to use as an engage with his W to add 0.6 seconds of CC
Now to all of the bad stuff
For one it is a root which means that the enemy is fully able to fight back given they have the range to do so (or is Jarvan who can just E + Q despite being rooted)
It is so slow it is basically useless for engaging unless flanking while it being slow isn't so bad if you try to use it to zone the enemy away (however the enemy tank can allow his team to stand their ground if they just group up behind him)
It can be blocked by enemy tanks which isn't to difficult with how slow it is... and the enemy team doesn't have to back off because they can just line up behind their tank instead (yeah their tank is rooted for a little while... but that's about as bad as the tank getting hit by a morgana black binding or something... so not a disaster especially considering that it is an ult)