Riot, Shen is in critical condition.

Melledoneus··12 votes·809 views

Shen is a tanky defensive champion with the capabilities to poke small amounts without mana gating, negate damage with a shield, and lock down carries with a skillshot taunt. All topped off with a global shield-teleport. Sounds really cool, right? You bet. But why is he so rarely played amongst the pros where he was meant to be played?

Riot, I love you to death. I love your game, its champions, what lore we have... all of it. You listen to your community when you can, and you take ideas from us to make the game better. But sometimes, you guys get real quiet about champions. Shen is one of these champs, who happens to be perhaps my favorite top lane tank of all time. So, instead of chastising you on rejecting him the love he deserves, I decided to suggest ideas to make The Eye of Twilight more interesting as a tanky ninja and overall less frustrating. Hopefully you guys see this and help us out.

First, let's talk about Shen 's Q. It's a targeted spell. It does damage. It heals you when you strike the target. Sounds broken, right? Not really, low scalings, moving on. But wait. That Q has a purpose, right? To sustain after trades, to push lanes, last hit, and even heal during trades. Hell, I like to think my leashes are the best because I heal my jungler for like 20 HP. I'm a hero. So, what's the matter with it? Well... it's clunky. Not only is it a hassle when you're casting it and the target moves out of range and nothing happens, it's infuriating. I spend a good few seconds trying to throw a darn knife at a champion, just to have it cancel and hit a minion instead. Riot, range indicators are nice, but for an ability that is usually maxed, it's really lackluster. Clarity changes would be a great addition because if we get, I don't know, a line indicator showing what his Vorpal Blade is targeting and flying toward, we know more often if we screwed up that CS or trade and whether to back out or not. Just saying. As for Shen 's E... let's see. My favorite dash in the game (not counting Malphite ) on a tank by far. It hits multiple people, it taunts, it lets you and your team get free harass. And it never hits. Riot, if I was illogical, I'd tell you to make Shadow Dash's width the size of Morgana 's Q. But I won't, because I know Shen very well, and it'd be like going up against a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. Now, for his deceptively narrow dash width, I propose two possible solutions. -First, you could make E the width of Shen 's hitbox. That way, it would match his animation much better. It also makes for less "Top 5 LoL WTF" moments when he phases through an enemy and nothing happens. -Second, you could reduce his hitbox for the duration of his dash to match its width. That way, he can slip by for a nice taunt without dealing with that random Thresh Flay that was off-point. It also makes for a better animation, as he can become wraith-like or shadow-like so it's more obvious when he initiates. Shen 's ultimate Stand United is perhaps the best single target peel ultimate in the game on a tank. A free shield, and Super Ninja comes to protect his friend(s). However, with the new changes, it's hard to tell where Shen will end up. I mean, it's kind of awkward when you prepare that clutch taunt and miss completely. I think Shen 's location should have an indicator as to where he will show up. I mean, Shen is already showing up, why not have a little materializing silhouette of him to give his teammates a better idea of what space they have? Just saying.

That's all I have for now. Scaling MR would be nice, but I guess AP top laners need a sigh of relief, so I guess it isn't happening.

What do you guys think?

26 Comments

Marthian2 votes

He's incredible hard to balance since he has a teleport ult. -what I think

That's all I have for now. Scaling MR would be nice, but of course Riot loves to give Cho'gath as many r*** victims in top lane as possible, so I guess it isn't happening. *Edit: Thanks OP for removing.

No one is going to take this seriously if you use that kind of language. Even when pointing out legitimate issues, it's still socially unacceptable.

Melledoneus3 votes

{quoted}

He's incredible hard to balance since he has a teleport ult. -what I think

No one is going to take this seriously if you use that kind of language. Even when pointing out legitimate issues, it's still socially unacceptable.

I don't see why it's difficult when they can merely improve his peeling capabilities and ability to farm better against anything besides AD melees. But I do see how the power balance comes into play.

Also, I agree on that last part. I just really dislike Chogath in general, so I got out of hand there. Changed it to be more, as you put it, "socially acceptable."

Marthian2 votes

I definitely understand being upset with an annoying champion. Thank you for changing it :) -and yeah Cho'gath can be a pain at times.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

I definitely understand being upset with an annoying champion. Thank you for changing it :) -and yeah Cho'gath can be a pain at times.

I wholly agree. That passive makes him the ultimate harass sponge.

doubleguac2 votes

Nasus .

I hate cho too, though. Just hyper-pushes lanes while absorbing all your poke, and can instagib a lot of champions if he ever manages to land a Q post-6.

As far as the OP goes: I think Shen is kind of hard to balance in a way that's satisfying for both his opponent and for him. His laning phase is... frustrating if you're playing a melee without sustain. He's energy based, has point and click poke, built in sustain, and a shield. High base stats on top of all that. He's pretty much a brick wall who just spams undodgeable poke at you 24/7 while absorbing or sustaining through most of the damage you try to put on him. And he is actually incredibly strong in a toe-to-toe duel (not that it matters much since most champs can just walk away from him). I can't think of many champions who can actually kill him 1v1, early on at least.

I don't really know what to do with him. His shield is kind of terrible, but it would be ridiculous if it wasn't... having a good energy based shield on a champion who already has built-in sustain is kind of crazy. Maybe add champ-level scaling (like the scaling on Viktor's Q) to make it a bit better late game without buffing it in lane.

His Q doesn't do a lot of damage. But again, it's manaless and point-and-click.

I think Shen pays a super high price in team fights for the strengths he has in laning. If you want to buff his team fights, you end up buffing his low-counterplay laning phase. And that's the thing... he's not necessarily a lane bully. His laning phase is strong in the sense that he completely lacks counterplay, other than shoving the lane and roaming. He has no kill potential whatsoever against most champions. He just forces them to chug potions.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's super dated, and I think he really needs a rework, rather than little band-aid buffs.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

Nasus .

I hate cho too, though. Just hyper-pushes lanes while absorbing all your poke, and can instagib a lot of champions if he ever manages to land a Q post-6.

As far as the OP goes: I think Shen is kind of hard to balance in a way that's satisfying for both his opponent and for him. His laning phase is... frustrating if you're playing a melee without sustain. He's energy based, has point and click poke, built in sustain, and a shield. High base stats on top of all that. He's pretty much a brick wall who just spams undodgeable poke at you 24/7 while absorbing or sustaining through most of the damage you try to put on him. And he is actually incredibly strong in a toe-to-toe duel (not that it matters much since most champs can just walk away from him). I can't think of many champions who can actually kill him 1v1, early on at least.

I don't really know what to do with him. His shield is kind of terrible, but it would be ridiculous if it wasn't... having a good energy based shield on a champion who already has built-in sustain is kind of crazy. Maybe add champ-level scaling (like the scaling on Viktor's Q) to make it a bit better late game without buffing it in lane.

His Q doesn't do a lot of damage. But again, it's manaless and point-and-click.

I think Shen pays a super high price in team fights for the strengths he has in laning. If you want to buff his team fights, you end up buffing his low-counterplay laning phase. And that's the thing... he's not necessarily a lane bully. His laning phase is strong in the sense that he completely lacks counterplay, other than shoving the lane and roaming. He has no kill potential whatsoever against most champions. He just forces them to chug potions.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's super dated, and I think he really needs a rework, rather than little band-aid buffs.

I disagree on his strong laning phase. Shen has incredibly low base stats early on, and his MR never scales, giving him a hard time if he goes up against a Rumble or a Riven early on. Shen's farming is incredibly risky and easy to abuse with poke. Shen's combo, I admit, does good damage to squishies, but it's a burst combo without much burst. Additionally, his single target demeanor makes him incredibly prone to getting pushed against, letting ranged champions harass him under turret with ease. He cannot push well until he gets Immolate or damage/attack speed. Also, his "low counterplay laning phase" is actually quite easy if his jungler does not gank and you don't try to dive him. If you get jumped on with decent HP by a Shen in a 1v1 trade, you can wait for his combo to finish then counter harass him hard as he limps away. Additionally, it's difficult for Shen to join fights when the person he is ulting gets focused and killed, and that shield does nothing in that situation. Cheese Strat 101.

Shen is a strong 1v1 champ with half sustain dueling and half peeling for teammates. It's unique, but the aspects of his dash and shield are a bit messy. He's oppressive against some champs, and oppressed against others. There is never really an even lane with Shen that lasts long because of the nature of his ultimate.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

No one is going to take this seriously if you use that kind of language. Even when pointing out legitimate issues, it's still socially unacceptable.

This is a forum post, not an official document.

Marthian3 votes

I suggest you read the Universal Rules. And considering gameplay balance is supposed to be serious (which people seem to mess up a lot.) there is absolutely no reason to use the term rape in the forum post. Or at all.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you read the Universal Rules. And considering gameplay balance is supposed to be serious (which people seem to mess up a lot.) there is absolutely no reason to use the term rape in the forum post. Or at all.

I really fail to see how a single use of a term that was not directed to anybody, nor was it used in a fashion that was encouraging or promoting such an idea is being remotely offensive or inappropriate.

It's like saying "fk yeah" is not okay because the first word is "socially unacceptable", you have to look at the general context instead of a single word.

Melledoneus2 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you read the Universal Rules. And considering gameplay balance is supposed to be serious (which people seem to mess up a lot.) there is absolutely no reason to use the term rape in the forum post. Or at all.

Since I did edit it and admit to my mistake, I believe there is no reason to rub salt in my wounds about it by spreading the word that I made a joke deemed "socially unacceptable" when it is used frequently. There is also no specific reason to downvote and look down on people with different opinions than yourself. The downvote is meant for posts that are irrelevent, improper as a whole, contains slurs toward certain groups, and/or contains a plethora of vulgarity. If you came here to be a critic of somebody's flaws rather than discuss the nature of Shen, you are on the wrong post, and I bid you good day.

If you are indeed here to discuss the topic of the post and maybe even have a friendly debate about it, then by all means let us discuss it and not the one sentence I made a slight social error that has thus been corrected and no longer needs to be discussed. I welcome friendly argumentation and discussion, but your comments come off as quite ad hominem instead, correct me if I am wrong.

Marthian2 votes

I noticed and edited my other post as such. Again thank you for changing it.

I know people use it as a "joke," but it's not a very funny joke. It's a real issue and shouldn't be made fun of. It's an insult to people that have been raped and traumatized by it; meanwhile, others think it's funny and not that big a deal. The quoted post was mostly because of a slightly snarky response from someone else sounding like there are no rules on the forum (when in fact, there is.) Some Riot post has mentioned that using that kind of language isn't a good way to start getting constructive posts made.

Chaotic Reks2 votes

finally, a post regarding shen that doesnt regard him needing a rework or ninja update. thanks

Melledoneus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IaBJrp3y,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-20T12:50:08.329+0000)

finally, a post regarding shen that doesnt regard him needing a rework or ninja update. thanks

A true Shen player knows what he really needs. And a rework would be overkill.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Give his W some champion level scaling, increase E hitbox and give it health damage scaling to make it a damaging initiate like Amumu's, give Q some minor health scaling as well, reduce Q cooldown by 1 second at all levels to give him incentive to buy Triforce as a damage item.

SEKAI1 votes

tbh, I think he is in a fine spot. If anything, maybe some love taps here and there is all he needs.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

tbh, I think he is in a fine spot. If anything, maybe some love taps here and there is all he needs.

What kind of love taps and where? I'm thinking maybe his scalings should be HP rather than AP, or maybe make his Q scalings less pathetic?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

What kind of love taps and where? I'm thinking maybe his scalings should be HP rather than AP, or maybe make his Q scalings less pathetic?

His focus has always been dueling, sustain and team survival, damage was never meant to be his strong point.

In a 1v1 fight, Shen would never lose, for the most part.

If his shield scales with HP he would be too OP, since he would be synergising with HP stacking too well.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

His focus has always been dueling, sustain and team survival, damage was never meant to be his strong point.

In a 1v1 fight, Shen would never lose, for the most part.

If his shield scales with HP he would be too OP, since he would be synergising with HP stacking too well.

Well, when I said scalings, I referred to the heal, but ok.

Also, I can attest to the contrary that Shen would never lose in a 1v1. That is, unless building full tank isn't the right way to build him. Though, I do agree that his dueling potential is strong, I think Riot needs to rethink it and make him a little more team-protective if that's their design plan for him.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Well, when I said scalings, I referred to the heal, but ok.

Shen's Q heal already scales with HP, same with his passive.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

Shen's Q heal already scales with HP, same with his passive.

I understand. I just feel that the scaling itself is underwhelming. The most you see it at is around 300 health restore, which is nearly useless in the late game. I mean, I could a heal like that when roaming and ganking, for pete's sake.

LilxPaprika1 votes

https://myleaguewishlist.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/how-i-think-shen-should-be-reworked/

The thing that frustrates me about his q is that its difficult to stay on the person you marked. Whereas someone like Irelia or XinZhao can use their healing on anyone they jump on. Meanwhile shen needs to wait for his next q and use more energy for it.

In the above blog post link I reduced his Q's energy cost to 50, so it can be used on new targets easier. I also think it could use a slightly faster animation. A riven has so many ways to auto reset with her spells. Would be nice if it was a bit more fluid on shen.

Melledoneus2 votes

{quoted}

https://myleaguewishlist.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/how-i-think-shen-should-be-reworked/

The thing that frustrates me about his q is that its difficult to stay on the person you marked. Whereas someone like Irelia or XinZhao can use their healing on anyone they jump on. Meanwhile shen needs to wait for his next q and use more energy for it.

In the above blog post link I reduced his Q's energy cost to 50, so it can be used on new targets easier. I also think it could use a slightly faster animation. A riven has so many ways to auto reset with her spells. Would be nice if it was a bit more fluid on shen.

His energy costs don't really change much in terms of his lane power. I do agree on the animation, though, since it feels like I'm charging a Xerath Q every time I use it.

Troy2426211 votes

I really like Shen, too, although I usually jungle, so I can vouch for his weak jungling abilities, too. He's been getting a LOT of forum threads lately, hope Riot reacts.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

I really like Shen, too, although I usually jungle, so I can vouch for his weak jungling abilities, too. He's been getting a LOT of forum threads lately, hope Riot reacts.

Let's build a bonfire and maybe they'll notice.

NorthernDruid1 votes

A nice little buff to Shen which would atleast make him feel less clunky to play, would be increased movement speed. He's just so incredibly slow.

Not necessarily what he needs to be super competitive, but it would make him more attractive to play.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

A nice little buff to Shen which would atleast make him feel less clunky to play, would be increased movement speed. He's just so incredibly slow.

Not necessarily what he needs to be super competitive, but it would make him more attractive to play.

Yeah, ninjas are supposed to be fast. Shen, you liar!

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