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Interesting Point by Phreak: Tanky Champions Should Be Statistically Overpowered

SirPurrr··36 votes·2,099 views

...since people do not want to play them normally. The explanation goes that if you would have had a terrible comp. with no engage/tankiness without the tank player, that would really artificially lower the winrate of the squishy champions picked. The tank player enables the rest of the team and makes the comp. functional and thus he will win more than average even if his champion's not objectively overpowered.

I actually never really thought of this. I think he's right though. Likewise, if nearly everyone went Rengar support and only a tiny percentage of players used legitimate supports like Nami or Alistar, those true support champions would probably skyrocket in winrate despite not really being objectively overpowered. I don't get many troll supports but I've definitely gotten plenty of comps. where I'm mid and we have Trynd top, Vayne bot, Brand bot, Yi jg. The comp. is pretty bad if the enemy team plays well and has a viable comp. This isn't unusual and if we switch that Yi for a Sej., I expect our team's winrate to go up a lot even if Sej. is no longer overpowered.

Phreak rundown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-Po85ZMbII

52 Comments

Śhunpo29 votes

This is the same guy who thinks that post rework Rengar is fair to play for Rengar one tricks. This is also the same guy who said that the Ardent meta was 100% ok.

This guy is a living, breathing meme.

LankPants19 votes

What he's saying here however is completely right.

If I pick Yi what's the minimum amount of tanks I can have on my team, it's obviously 0. If I pick Sej the minimum amount of tanks I can have is 1. As long as the assumption that a team with no tanks generally has an abysmal team comp is correct then it makes complete sense that when both of these champs are balanced Sej would "steal" some of Yi's winrate because of all the times when the two champs are picked into teamcomps that otherwise lack tanks.

The opposite point is also true in theory, if you already have 2 or 3 other tanks you might want to pick Yi over Sej so your team doesn't lack damage. The problem is that this situation doesn't show up nearly as much in practice.

You need to argue against the actual argument if you disagree (it's not clear whether or not you do) not just try to discredit Phreak as a person. The argument you make is committing the logical fallacy of ad hominem.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yep although on this topic of tanks he is on to something

something most of us tank players figured out seasons ago but nonetheless he is on to something here

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Because clearly a person is either right all the time or wrong all the time.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Guy also claimed relese Bramble Vest was fine.

Ralanr9 votes

Considering how any game where I don’t play a tank and no one of my team is a tank or frontliner ends up being a losing game, I can see the reasoning.

I play tanks to keep the team functioning in the middle of a fight. I don’t really trust others with the job.

Apocalypsic1 votes

My problem is that if a tank is inherently better than a bruiser then there is a problem with balance.

There should be pros and cons to consider, not "oh if I don't pick a tank literally every game we lose."

Ralanr2 votes

That's how I feel towards the ADC/Marksmen.

Apocalypsic1 votes

I agree.

I think somewhere along the line Riot lost the plot.

Faceroll Tactics7 votes

What a Freak, no wonder his public respect levels are tanking. He has been working at riot for too long maybe, not much gas left in the tank I guess

Draw My Fursona4 votes

alright, "faceroll tactics"

keep losing games to tanks with your attempts at tactics that are nothing more than hoping to faceroll.

ZeroAgainst7 votes

oh yes phreak the riot shill. The day he gets fired from riot i 100% guarantee better balance changes.

Abibyama8 votes

How can he be a shill if he already works for riot in the first place? That makes no sense

And Phreak is not on the balance team, so firing him won’t change one bit

SpaghettiVase13 votes

How can there be better balance changes if Phreak leaves when he doesn't even work on balancing in the first place? All Phreak does for Riot is LCS Casting and he narrates the Champion Spotlight videos.

GayFluffyUnicorn7 votes

But the current tanks are objectively overpowered. No matter what he says. Cho, mao, orrn are completely overpowered and broken in chos case. Don't know why rito insists that tanks should just flat out rightclick you to death like Maokai does it while building full tank, outsustaining, out CCing and outscaling you????? Do i even need to talk about cho? Orrn well you CAN play around his W A BIT but having a low CD spammable shield with max. 30% max health dmg seems a bit much?

nGio8 votes

Volibear DrMundo Poppy Nautilus Sion Nunu Malphite Galio Skarner ? Even Zac hasn't broken 50% for several patches.

No, tanks are not op. Just because recently reworked/buffed champions like Mao and Cho are strong, doesn't mean tanks are. The overwhelming majority of the class is still aboslute dog shit with bad item choices and trash runes that can't compete with the absurd level of damage atm.

SpaghettiVase3 votes

Voli, Mundo, and Skarner aren't tanks, they are juggernauts, but they are probably the most tanky of that class I'll give you that.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Skarner isn't considered a juggernaut anymore by Riot and he's never been a good fit for the class.

Ralanr5 votes

Tanks? Right clicking you to death?

What?

HarrowR1 votes

Yes some tanks are op,good luck telling Boards that,they're all volibear mains trust me

Ralanr6 votes

{quoted}

Yes some tanks are op,good luck telling Boards that,they're all volibear mains trust me

But...Volibear isn’t a tank.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Counting Cho as a tank is at least controversial, too, even if he has more CC than most juggs.

Ralanr1 votes

Cho is an abomination.

chipndip17 votes

A lot of you guys, and I mean A LOT of you guys posting in this thread are disappointing beyond belief.

"OMG I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TRIPLE DOWN ON ASSASSINS IN MY TEAM COMP AND NOT SUFFER IN A STRATEGIC GAME!!!! WHerE Es Mey DIVERsitY RIot?"

In League you can't just pick a team full of damn carries and mages and think "This should end well". The beauty of League is that it's objectively possible to win even when you draft like a bunch of apes. That said, you guys think you're entitled to have 3 freaking assassins and a marksman while having a strong chance to win a match against a better balanced team. That isn't how ANY strategic game works, and it isn't "bullshit" if you get punished for it.

Sona Ping3 votes

Didn't watch, I'll trust you. Pretty bad argument.

" if you would have had a terrible comp. with no engage/tankiness without the tank player," And not just because of e.g. Nami

Ralanr6 votes

Even Support engage is lacking when you have a weak to no frontline.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

i saw this earlier... and its totaly BS... at least for Ornn. maybe i should argument this but honesty, any "decent" toplaner even from high gold should be able to say this : ORNN is FµCKING OVERBUFFED.

the argument of Phreak for tanks in general is so lame btw... if they want to make tanks attractive, they just have to do better kits (i think they do).

Ralanr3 votes

I kinda agree on the kits part. If you told me to play tanks when I joined (when Jinx was released) I’d get bored super quickly as I found tank design to be unrewarding and unfun. I still feel it whenever I play Malphite.

But new kits like Sion, Poppy, Galio, Ornn, etc are more fun and feel more attractive for me.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Riot do many sh*t (like overbuffing Ornn)... but we must say when they right things.

Lunar Lunacy2 votes

I've noticed a pattern. If you have a tanky team comp, teamfight. If you don't, hope your laners win and just focus on split pushing and objectives

Salron2 votes

While that's somewhat true, a lot of people picking a tank JUST because their team needs it and not because they play it/want to play it are not going to perform all that well on that champion due to not having much experience on it, so those 2 factors should even out, making his point moot

Dolivera2 votes

That's not necessarily true. There was a point in time where I mained Morgana as a support. However, if we lacked a tank, I would play Shen. I am a decent Shen support. I had enough experience on it that I could play about as well as I would have on Morgana and we would have a better chance of winning since we had a tank for teamfights.

Just because someone would have preferred to play one champion doesn't mean they will preform poorly on a different one. It's called having a diverse champion pool.

Salron1 votes

"I have a diverse champion pool so that means everyone else does"

Thats good for you, but most people, especially at higher elos don't and it is very noticable if someone is playing a champion they're not very good at just so their team has a tank

People who prefer specific champs tend to rarely deviate from that champion as excelling at a few champions has been proven to be the best way to climb

Ralanr4 votes

So high elo players suck at adapting?

Nymzo2 votes

Oh god please no. This is like the Red... what's his name, Trading stance or something like that.

You know the guy who literally said they buffed support on purpose just so they could be played more? Ruining the role in the process because Redemption and Ardent were broken?

They should stop having this philosophy of thinking, for their own sake and the game's.

Titanium705 votes

Buffing Supports to be an actual Class was fine - yeah they overeaggerated a little and took to much time to fix the issues but the original plan was good.

Before it supports just used items that were streamlined for other classes over the years as best as they good, which was still quite bad. Now supports have their own itemisation to rely on.

And while the entire process of making items class-only can be something to argue about - the adding of proper SUpp-Item was just consistent.

Nymzo1 votes

{quoted}

Buffing Supports to be an actual Class was fine - yeah they overeaggerated a little and took to much time to fix the issues but the original plan was good.

Before it supports just used items that were streamlined for other classes over the years as best as they good, which was still quite bad. Now supports have their own itemisation to rely on.

And while the entire process of making items class-only can be something to argue about - the adding of proper SUpp-Item was just consistent.

I agree what, this is not my issue.

My issue is that they did not for support players, but for autofill players aka making the role more popular.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

That wasn't for themselves. It was for the players. Before the Ardent changes people were crying about autofill constantly. Non stop. If Riot didn't listen to the players they would have left support alone. They chose to address the problem of autofill by making supports feel more impactful. That had a big impact on the number of support players we have. It is an overall improvement for the game even if its caused a headache for balance.

Nymzo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IZEwhsnM,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2017-11-22T18:23:21.050+0000)

That wasn't for themselves. It was for the players. Before the Ardent changes people were crying about autofill constantly. Non stop. If Riot didn't listen to the players they would have left support alone. They chose to address the problem of autofill by making supports feel more impactful. That had a big impact on the number of support players we have. It is an overall improvement for the game even if its caused a headache for balance.

Exactly, it was for the players. But not support players, it was for autofill players and that's the problem.

Imagine if Riot would buff item 3165 because people that don't main mid struggle to win. That would be caused a lot of rage on Reddit and Board yet it is okay for us because we are support?

Sohleks1 votes

That stems from the position that a durable frontline top/mid is a requirement of a serious normal teamcomp... though it would be in any forseeable class-balanced meta so long as ranged hypercarry is enforced bot lane and there is only 1-2 consistent tank mid laner. But when the game gets to a point where it's trollpicking to not play a meatbag support top lane and the team that stacks 3 or 4 tanks win by just facerolling then fuck.

Also love how fighters are typically trash compared to tanks for a couple years. Making fighters great again would spice-ify the game. Riot hates letting fighters and assassins be competitive for long because they have a very selfishly direct playstyle that goes against a stable teamwurk endorsed metagame of circlejerking some mage or adc.

But it's a pretty difficult problem to solve.. I suppose.. How to make bruisers work like bruisers versus this game's supports and not work like assassins exactly.. Olaf for example cheats the problem and is generally pretty playable as a high skill level fighter. Well he also kinda has resetting base damages that allow him to build 100% tank sometimes...

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Well riot has powercreeped the game to a point where it isn't fixable anymore. Like bruisers/fighters should have sustained dmg. They usually are 1v1 gods. Problem is camille, jax, irelia, riven even darius all of them even when building off tank need to 100-0 the target in a second or they get blown up themselves cuz the game has too much dmg and doesn't allow sustained dps to be viable. See the difference in designs between the champs i mentioned? Jax, irelia were the traditional sustained bruisers. Then camille came who has already been designed as a bursty diver by her quick Q rotations because that is the only way for a bruiser to be viable in this game.

Ralanr1 votes

I am saddened by how Melee DPS is basically impossible as a form of carry nowadays.

HarrowR1 votes

And then every third boards post is about adcs needing to get their crit removed cause they are doing "bursts per second" and they do too much burst,but you said it yourself,in this game if you dont do damage quick,someone else will and you will die,no one will wait for you to hit them 30 times

revliledpembroke1 votes

Maybe if all things are even, but there are bound to be comps where no one follows up on the tank's engage, if the tank gets slaughtered in lane, or if the jungling tank gets counterjungled (or gets killed at their camps).

That will balance it out some.

Course, being properly high up in rankings would probably fix some of those issues, but not all of them. Sometimes, people just have bad days.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

This is the same guy that said the counterplay to vayne is to just "2v1 her"

Rexxiee1 votes

Terrible argument is awful.

How about instead trying to make more interactive and fun to play kits then?

Making tanks OP because they have boring kits is actually even worse, because it means those boring champs see play instead of being reworked.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

I think you may have missed the point here. It wasn't a justification for things, simply an explanation for a possible reason.

Anonagon1 votes

It is true to an extent, and its a large reason why some tanks who don't particularly feel good have been historically strong, but it doesn't completely justify the current power level of the stronger tanks. Maokai, Cho, Ornn, Leona, and potentially some others are broken far beyond what the tank role's unpopularity justifies. The winrate of a balanced but unpopular tank should maybe be ~51% rather than the ~50% you'd expect of a role seen and needed every game like a mage or ADC, or the ~49% you might expect of an overpicked role like assassins or carry top laners. The current slate of dominant tanks are well beyond that.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Mao, Ornn and Leo are way too strong, right.

But so are XinZhao JarvanIV Warwick Yorick or Shyvana.

Some champions got overbuffed by preaseason, but there are just as many dominant fighters as dominant tanks, if not more.

Anonagon1 votes

Yes, there are strong, even overpowered fighters. Does that make the overpowered tanks less overpowered? No. Should those fighters be nerfed also? Probably. I don't know why you are implying I think that tanks are the only problem champions in the game. Overpowered champions should get nerfed, no matter their class. This thread is about tanks, so I talked about tanks.

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