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MORELLO Needs WORK and Here's a Solution

astralwit··24 votes·8,192 views

Oblivion Orb gave too many stats for early game (particularly the Mpen) but the nerf to Morello as a whole leaves itemization gaps and is probably not necessary for the final item. Moreover, I think nearly every mage user would prefer a slight cost increase and a better late game build.n

While thinking about this, I came across a great suggestion by a high ELO mid main.

  1. Remove the Mpen from Oblivion Orb and add grievous wounds instead (perhaps with more AP or at a lower price point). This is what made it overbearing early at the previous price point. Instead of an early game power spike, make this a reactive grievous wounds item. ADCs can adapt their build this way for an 800g executioner but APs lack this flexibility and need to spend 3000g to do the same thing. What this essentially means is that Morello has to have at least good early game components to be viable. You can't spend 3000g just because you want its passive.
  2. Add the Mpen back into the full Morello item and make it more slot efficient.

Riot stated that they want us to adapt our builds and for each game to feel a bit different. Turning Oblivion Orb into a more reactive item nicely accomplishes this goal without crippling the full Morello item. What do you guys think?

25 Comments

Shoot Me25612 votes

Anything that gives AP champs an option to deal with obnoxious healing without having to spend a full 3000g on an inefficient item just to get it.

Z3Sleeper6 votes

Agreed. I don't think MPen should be a readily available stat outside of boots anyway. It forces nearly every mage to build it because MPen is just that strong. I don't even think boots should give it either since it feels so horrid to have to build defense boots over the boots that offer the rarest AP multiplicative offensive stat that is only on two items.

They don't have as many stats that scale with each other like AD champs do with:

  • Base AD
  • Base Ability Damage
  • AD
  • AS
  • Crit
  • CDR
  • Armor Shred
  • % APen
  • Lethality
  • Crit Damage
  • On-hit
  • Phantom Hit
  • (some even scale with all the AP multiplicatives listed below)

With most of them multiplicatively scaling with each other or at least 3 other stats.

All mages have is:

  • Base Ability Damage
  • AP
  • CDR
  • MPen
  • % MPen

So if you introduce a magic penetration item obviously mages will be forced to buy the one item that multiplies all their other damage.

The solution here is obvious: Remove MPen and balance AP and MR around the idea that MPen outside of Void Staff simply doesn't exist. Extreme emphasis on balance MR as well.

I do think tying it to a 3000g item is "fine" but I don't think it's even necessary. I think a GW version of Oblivion should just build into a lower % Pen GW version of Void Staff.

Edit:

Alternative Solution 1: Put a small amount (like 5) Magic Pen on every "mage" item (except the Lost Chapter items since they do enough without it and not support items to differentiate mage and support more). Would keep the power balance of MPen and MR as it currently is but without forcing mages into a single penetration build.

Alternative Solution 2 (best one IMO): Just tweak the primary users who are affected by the change rather than go about making wide-sweeping changes to other long-standing balance systems that'll affect every other magic damage dealing champion (Warwick, Kai'Sa, Kog'Maw, etc.).

taleofsonata1 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. I don't think MPen should be a readily available stat outside of boots anyway. It forces nearly every mage to build it because MPen is just that strong. I don't even think boots should give it either since it feels so horrid to have to build defense boots over the boots that offer the rarest AP multiplicative offensive stat that is only on two items.

They don't have as many stats that scale with each other like AD champs do with:

  • Base AD
  • Base Ability Damage
  • AD
  • AS
  • Crit
  • CDR
  • Armor Shred
  • % MPen
  • Lethality
  • Crit Damage
  • On-hit
  • Phantom Hit
  • (some even scale with all the AP multiplicatives listed below)

With most of them multiplicatively scaling with each other or at least 3 other stats.

All mages have is:

  • Base Ability Damage
  • AP
  • CDR
  • MPen
  • % MPen

So if you introduce a magic penetration item obviously mages will be forced to buy the one item that multiplies all their other damage.

The solution here is obvious: Remove MPen and balance AP and MR around the idea that MPen outside of Void Staff simply doesn't exist. Extreme emphasis on balance MR as well.

I do think tying it to a 3000g item is "fine" but I don't think it's even necessary. I think a GW version of Oblivion should just build into a lower % Pen GW version of Void Staff.

Wrong because MR stacking is strong + Healing. That is why it was moved to morello all in one. Mages want Pen to be able to burst priority target in teamfights. Their utility combine with their damage is what makes them strong. They are technically Supports with Damage. Removing Magic pen for mages force them to be stacking alot of AP, now heres the problem, in season 3 mages build would end up with 1000 AP but has less pen items because it was situational. Now nowadays Mages total ap per match are much lower but have higher Pen and additional damage from masteries.

Saianna1 votes

You still think about it as if MR would be left unchanged, while Z3Sleeper suggests, that with the idea of Mpen overhaul MR would also have to be adjusted.

I think I should expand why nowadays mages try to get Mpen rather than AP. It's because early MR is easy to get. Now when assassins can just get hexdrinker, which gives them easily more than 1/3 more eHP, mages have to counter that by buying mpen. Also ADCs have several options for MR, which effectively reduces their overall damage unless they get all Mpen they can.

Back in "old days" there wasn't such problem and mages didn't have to invest in mpen as none of their targets had any early MR.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Exactly. Overall Magic Resistance would need to take a hit. Not a fan of increasing AP values since that's a ton more work to balance things such as heals, shields and other utility effects that scale on AP so instead tuning MR is the more efficient choice.

Level 1 champion base MR would stay the same since that's not an issue. But champions with scaling MR should get hit slightly and MR items overall should lose around 5 MR each.

Simple changes like Null being reduced to 20 MR and Hex being reduced to 30 MR. It doesn't make up for the lost MPen but it opens up mage itemization more (since they no longer have to rush the low AP Oblivion for MPen) while reducing MR counter item efficiency by 5 each which is essentially the equivalent of 5 MPen per MR item their targets build.

Edit: My stance changed on what should be changed for this, see reply below the guy below me.

Saianna1 votes

it doesn't make up for the lost MPen but it opens up mage itemization more

I kinda cringed here. I'd rather see mages getting a carrot with mpen removal (mr items getting bigger hit), rather than a nerf overall. I'd say null giving 25 MR is pretty fine, but items such as hexdrinker shouldn't have thier MR increased byeond the 25MR (that means reduce the price slightly too). Then we have MAW, that just shits on any mage with its 50MR. Reduce that to 35 i'd say it's a good deal I guess

Z3Sleeper1 votes

In any case, MR changes would be something to be tested and changed appropriately by Riot's internal testing and PBE testing after Oblivion's "removal".

Mages have been building it ever since it was conceived so they've already all been balanced around this item existing.

Thinking about it more I think just tweaks to the primary users would be better as not all mages are utilizing it. Shifting MR values would shift balance for champions that ignored Oblivion such as Ryze, Rumble and every other champion that deals heavy magic damage but didn't build Oblivion such as Warwick, Kog'Maw, Kai'Sa, etc.

Alzon3 votes

Mages have their Grievous Wounds-touch restricted to a 3k gold item because many of them have rather noninteractive abilities (outranging, DoT after leaving range, etc.). This way their poke damage is actually countered by sustain, as it's meant to be. If you're worried about healing during an all-in, just take Ignite.

Sustain. Counters. Poke. Anyone who plays ARAM regularly knows this, and it's the same on the Rift. Giving Grievous Wounds to the class that has the least interaction involved with simply applying their damage as an early-game or reactive purchase runs contrary to this design philosophy.

Ragnaveil1 votes

The MPen should just go on a different item (then could possibly get increased depending on the result). That way mages HAVE to pick either countering sustain or getting more mp pen, not both wrapped in a bowtie. Especially with your point on them being the least interactive class.

Sure, ADs and Tanks can get it much early, but is it worth the stats? item 3123 grants a simple 15 AD and requires the upgrade to be any good with damage stats, and item 3076 has 35 armor but requires the target to auto you to apply it, meaning that as a Tank you cant do shit to that pesky Vlad's healing because he will never auto you. Or to anybody who doesn't auto you. item 3165 is 70 AP, 300 health, and 15 magic pen. Even with Bramble and Exe's upgrades, they still pale in comparison to Morello.

SweedishGunner2 votes

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing today about swapping the grevious wounds and mpen around on oblivion orb. Have a green arrow.

TrollsShouldDie2 votes

A video with one of the strongest mid or jungle champions Ekko is complaining about mages in an assassin meta. I can't tell if this post is serious or trolling. Even the video is showing Ekko completely dominating and tower diving the mage.

astralwit2 votes

{quoted}

A video with one of the strongest mid or jungle champions Ekko is complaining about mages in an assassin meta. I can't tell if this post is serious or trolling. Even the video is showing Ekko completely dominating and tower diving the mage.

Ekko is not top tier right now and hasn't been S tier for several seasons. He's not bad but he's A tier at best. For jungle, it's even worse and he suffered massively from the DH rework. Almost no one even plays him jungle anymore. Even if you main him, it's hard to justify a ranking beyond B tier.

3TWarrior2 votes

item 3111 : negates almost the entirety of BOTH magic pen items, 25/33 , the base component of which item 1033 offers the same amount of magic resist . 450 gold to almost entirely negate over 2000 gold in purchases

in addition to that, most sources of magic damage are not targeted or the items have ineffective synergy with, and then it's based on if the champion even builds it, but here are a list of champions that have at least one targeted effect in their kits that deals magic damage. I'm surprised there are so many left

Ahri Akali Azir Cassiopeia Chogath Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Fizz Heimerdinger Irelia Jax Karma Karthus Kassadin Kayle Katarina Kennen Leblanc Lissandra Malphite Malzahar Maokai Mordekaiser Morgana Nami Nautilus Ryze Shaco Sona Syndra Teemo TwistedFate Veigar Vladimir Warwick Zyra

i'm going a little loosely here though as not all of these have synergy with mana or AP builds or Morellonomicon, but all of them do have some form of targeted effect so they can utilize the maximum value of penetration and their abiilities by not missing

even with a consistent form of magic damage, most still do less than other categories, again, item 1033 almost entirely negates over 2000 gold in purchases item 3916 (1600) and item 3020 (1100 )

3TWarrior2 votes

in addition to my other comment, there are other problems with this, for instance, like "TrollsShouldDie" stated, the player in this video does not provide any evidence to back their claims and plays an assassin, completely dominating THE MOST POWERFUL MAGE IN THE GAME AND KILLING HER BEFORE SHE CAN EVEN PULL OFF A FULL COMBO

two, he conveniently tries to downplay what I pointed out, that you can negate over 2000 gold of stats with a 450 gold item that can fit into any kit

three, who is this guy?

then for speculation, this guy appears to be smurfing AND duoing, receiving roughly 5 ganks in his 10 minute video?

Kumiho Ahri1 votes

item 3916 -5 Magic Pen (item 3165 value unchanged) item 3165 replace grievous wounds with an amplifying effect for Ludens Echo and Hextech items (just like item 3095) Now you have a proper AP item with a clear focus on burst.

Add a new item with grievous wounds and a cheap component (AP item 3123).

Edit: It would probably make sense to also remove the HP from item 3916 and item 3165 and adjust AP value and price.

Edit2: examples: item 3916 1400g 35AP 10 mag. pen. item 3165 3200g 80AP 15 mag. pen. increases the effectiveness of 'Echo' and Hextech actives by 25%

item 3916 = item 1052 + 965g item 3165 = item 3916 + item 1026 + 950g

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kumiho Ahri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-26T06:44:22.799+0000)

item 3916 -5 Magic Pen (item 3165 value unchanged) item 3165 replace grievous wounds with an amplifying effect for Ludens Echo and Hextech items (just like item 3095) Now you have a proper AP item with a clear focus on burst.

Add a new item with grievous wounds and a cheap component (AP item 3123).

Edit: It would probably make sense to also remove the HP from item 3916 and item 3165 and adjust AP value and price.

But why are you turning Morello into a burst item?

That's clearly not the function it's currently intended for, and Mages already have burst items in the form of item 3285 and item 3089

Ragnaveil1 votes

Not to mention it would amp the effects of Ludens based on their suggestion. Im scared to think of that even being tested.

Kumiho Ahri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-02-26T07:27:25.824+0000)

But why are you turning Morello into a burst item?

That's clearly not the function it's currently intended for, and Mages already have burst items in the form of item 3285 and item 3089

I want that the player has to make a decision: Anti-Heal or DMG. Right now item 3165 is a '2 in 1' item (early game burst + Anti-Heal).

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kumiho Ahri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2019-02-27T09:14:45.761+0000)

I want that the player has to make a decision: Anti-Heal or DMG. Right now item 3165 is a '2 in 1' item (early game burst + Anti-Heal).

So just remove the Magic Pen from it, then?

Since we already have dedicated early game burst items in the form of Luden's, we don't need another one.

Kumiho Ahri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=0006000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-27T10:57:58.933+0000)

So just remove the Magic Pen from it, then?

Since we already have dedicated early game burst items in the form of Luden's, we don't need another one.

If you want to focus on grievous wounds on item 3165 I am fine with that too. just add the effect on item 3916 and lower the gold price for the final item.

Regarting burst items: We need a second mag. pen. item to keep up with the AD burst items. Luden isnt enough.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kumiho Ahri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=00060000000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T11:10:24.976+0000)

If you want to focus on grievous wounds on item 3165 I am fine with that too. just add the effect on item 3916 and lower the gold price for the final item.

Well, that's what this post was all about, albeit keeping the Magic Pen on the completed Morello.

Regarting burst items: We need a second mag. pen. item to keep up with the AD burst items. Luden isnt enough.

I'd argue that we shouldn't have more Magic Pen items to compete with Armor Pen ones, rather we need to reduce the amount of Armor Pen ones in the first place.

Kumiho Ahri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=000600000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T11:27:19.673+0000)

Well, that's what this post was all about, albeit keeping the Magic Pen on the completed Morello.

Doesnt it feel awkward to have penetration only at the very end of the build path? Idk.

I'd argue that we shouldn't have more Magic Pen items to compete with Armor Pen ones, rather we need to reduce the amount of Armor Pen ones in the first place.

I would be fine with this solution, but is very unlikely.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kumiho Ahri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IYtma482,comment-id=0006000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T11:46:14.826+0000)

Doesnt it feel awkward to have penetration only at the very end of the build path? Idk.

It does, and I don't advocate for it either.

It's just what the post said.

I would be fine with this solution, but is very unlikely.

Unlikely, yes, but I'd rather be hopeful it'll be done, rather than risk creating new problems by adding more Magic Pen items that end up being more problematic than initially thought.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I feel like, if we follow your idea, there should be another magic pen item. Why not build it from item 1058 ?

currently it only builds into item 3089 and item 3907 ... meanwhile item 1038 turns into much more items.

JuiceBoxP1 votes

Remove the Mpen from Oblivion Orb and add grievous wounds instead (perhaps with more AP or at a lower price point). This is what made it overbearing early at the previous price point. Instead of an early game power spike, make this a reactive grievous wounds item. ADCs can adapt their build this way for an 800g executioner but APs lack this flexibility and need to spend 3000g to do the same thing. What this essentially means is that Morello has to have at least good early game components to be viable. You can't spend 3000g just because you want its passive. Add the Mpen back into the full Morello item and make it more slot efficient.

i just highly agree with this....

But oblivion orb will basically stop being a rush item on AP assassins because it will lose it's Mpen... so you would need to provide an alternative.... unless riot decides the don't want to add an alternative..

We NEED an early grievous wounds item for mages.

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