If players want improved diversity in pro play, you have to ignore normal queues.

ModCaptainMårvelous··50 votes·3,105 views

Every day I see the same argument: LCS diversity is bad. TI6 had incredible diversity. We want that for league, etc. But here's the thing: Riot's design and player backlash is not allowing diversity to improve. Foremost, let's point out some things:

#1.) DOTA Diversity mirrors League VERY SLIGHTLY.

No, I'm not talking about "lel only 30 heroes see play gg" but when you point out that League has a few picks here and there that only got picked 1-2 times, people tell you those don't count. Likewise, they draw attention to ONLY the most picked heroes and complain about diversity there. See, this is true for DOTA as well.

As an example, in the group stages, certain heroes saw far-higher contesting than anyone else in the game. Even in a game and meta as Diverse as DOTA, 11 heroes have seen pick rates/ban rates higher than 50%. Again, I'm not knocking DOTA Balance (TI6 is a masterclass is game polish) but you're always going to have heroes who are at the top. This is the nature of these games and the concept of the meta. When people complain "Oh xyz was only picked once or twice, they don't count", that's the exact opposite of what you should aim for.

#2.) DOTA tries to balance for competitive, Riot tries to balance for both competitive and normals

For this, look at DOTA's normal win rates. Warning, it might trigger some people because of how high some win-rates are. Omniknight sits at almost 61%, the next highest two boast 56% win rates and the bottom team are sub-40%. You wanna know some funny stuff though? If you remember that article linked in the last point, Io was highly competitive for in pro play despite his pathetic win rate. Omniknight, last I recall, was picked once at TI6...and lost.

If you bring up win-rates in DOTA as a means for balance, you will be laughed at. Win-rates mean nothing. DOTA is completely balanced around pro play and making the pros have the most influence. League, by comparison, cares 50/50. Riot attempts to balance for pro and normal play. Yes, high ranking queue can also be considered normal play because of a team of solos vs. a team of coordinated pros.

League has hit critical mass when it comes to pro vs. normal play. Riot has tried making tweaks that affect pros more than normals but this doesn't work as well anymore.

#3.) DOTA's banning system is superior. Period.

Not much to add to this. Riot's expressed interest in a snake/captain's draft for season 7. This will drastically improve things imo. Not much to harp on here.

With all that said, I want to point out the last instance of Riot trying to balance for the pros: The literal last patch. In this patch, we had a variety of buffs aimed at champions who are "fine" but don't see all that much pro play. Chief among them was Brand with his ult buff. The forums and the community exploded in anger. "Brand has a 52% win rate! He's fine! He doesn't need buffs! Riot stop fucking with my normal queue". So they pulled out. Which means Brand is not going to be as desirable for pros.

#THIS MENTALITY IS KILLING PRO DIVERSITY

I wouldn't be half as pissed about this if I didn't see those same people holding up DOTA as the standard. Yes, DOTA's balancing is phenominal, but the community also eats a lot of crap in norms because of it. You want DOTA level diversity? Bite the bullet, knuckle down and accept that some champs will have drastically higher win-rates than others.

You honestly, earnestly want super diverse pro play? Tell Riot you're fine with your normal queue being out of wack while they give improvements for pros alone. Tell Riot you want them to listen to the highest ranking teams rather than listening to anyone on G&B who makes a balance thread. Tell Riot that they are free to experiment with changes so that some champs can finally see the limelight. Riot may control the game but they often listen to us far too much, despite what one may believe in terms of other matters.

Bottom Line: The community has to be the agent of change if we want more diverse pro play and we're also going to have to be the ones to have a less-than-perfect normal queue.

62 Comments

Eedat36 votes

Yes, I understand balancing around normal play hurts pro play.

Personally, I would rather them balance around normal play. Pro play is fun to watch, but at the end of the day I spend far more hours actually playing the game as opposed to watching LCS

Getcuxcd2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I understand balancing around normal play hurts pro play.

Personally, I would rather them balance around normal play. Pro play is fun to watch, but at the end of the day I spend far more hours actually playing the game as opposed to watching LCS

i mean those who cant git gut should deal with it and try to improve instead of wanting for buffs and crying when something gets nerfed we dont need to dumb down league even more so kiddies can play too .

CeexSett15 votes

But you are already playing?

Getcuxcd1 votes

{quoted}

But you are already playing?

ooh we have an edgy kid here watch out hes butthurt that we told the truth

CeexSett6 votes

Everybody knows you are a troll dude, step it off.

Getcuxcd1 votes

{quoted}

Everybody knows you are a troll dude, step it off.

um no sorry for saying the thruth about ur favorite champs doesnt make me a troll, ironically it makes you a troll to accuse me of being a troll

CeexSett2 votes

I stopped reading at thrugh.

Getcuxcd1 votes

{quoted}

I stopped reading at thrugh.

? please dont apply your irrelevant bronze opinion anymore

SmileInABox3 votes

Why are you still here trolling? Go back to school.

rtbf221479703 votes

Pwnd

VoidStaresBack2 votes
DeathBurst7 votes

I mostly agree with you buuuut...

What does it even mean to balance around "Normal play"? You don't balance for Bronze as you balance for Plat, or even Gold, the spectrum in just "Normal play" is already so wide that you can't chose to balance just for Normals and have everyone from low Bronze to high Plat happy.

Keìron1 votes

just balance for gold, plat and diamond. I'm a bronze scrub and for me it's ok.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Riot already takes the middle ground when they balance around high plat. Diamond isn't much different unless dia2+

Keìron2 votes

but they balance also for master,challenger and competitive play!

Eedat1 votes

I consider balancing for "normal play" to be balancing around Plat & Diamond

Keìron1 votes

i agree

DaBaiXiong14 votes

Or don't balance for proplay at all.

League has millions of active daily players, and 100 or so pros.

Fuck. Them.

Balance around players, and the pros can do whatever it is they wish. Play hyper op exploitable bullshit that make big plays.

I'll still never watch LCS.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Smalltomahawker2 votes

except.... LCS = more money, more marketing and great for the game in the long run. Of course its more important than your qq bronze threads.

Edit: Funny part is I read your comment and instantly thought (he must be bronze). Then I looked and you are. Damn I am good.

KoggyStyle2 votes

Alot of people are... , guy called out i was bronze the other day.... yeah he was shiney bronze.... i contributed more to the team at the end of the day.

warpenguin5552 votes

upvoted for saying shiny bronze.

Atanchan4 votes

I don't understand why people like you go to a gas station, grab a pack of gum, then climb up on the counter and proceed to literally piss on the guy manning the register.

Like, seriously. We're in a capitalist society. Flipping the bird to the guy with the job is just hating people for living.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Or don't balance for proplay at all.

League has millions of active daily players, and 100 or so pros.

Fuck. Them.

Balance around players, and the pros can do whatever it is they wish. Play hyper op exploitable bullshit that make big plays.

I'll still never watch LCS.

This has been more or less how I feel about it since the beginning.

Riot's willing to removing a map because only half of one percent of the player base is using it. Okay, fine, it still pisses me off but I can understand that.

However, Riot is willing to make game balance decisions based on what one thousandth of one percent of the player base is doing. No. That isn't okay.

Balance the game around the Plat/Diamond level. Take into consideration low level play when something absolutely wrecking the game. LCS can rot for all I care. It's never been fun to watch. It's always been a bone of contention. Riot could drop it tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a tear.

majulito9 votes

If it ever came down to having to choose between balance for the pros and balance for the rest of us I'd choose the rest of us. I play the game far more than I watch the pro scene. I want to have fun playing it. And I think riot makes far more money off the rest of us and loses money with the LCS. So if they ever had to choose it would probably be in their best interest to appeal to the masses and not the .01%.

Jeddy0178 votes

Long story short: More champs balanced for pro play = More diversity in pro play. But more champs balanced for pro play = more champs being busted or ruined for us.

Earl Eulrich7 votes

i´d say the main problem with riot is their internal playtesters. the stuff that gets released rarly is anywhere near a balancable state and too many champs in recent years seem to be designed without ever having in mind that people don´t only play them but also have to play against them. So ofc balancing won´t be in a "good" state, wether you focus on balancing for pros, for normals or for blind people with just one arm.

For normal games you don´t need to really "balance" things out exactly, you just have to make a champion feel "fair" - the most complained Champs are rarly blantly overpowered, but they just leave you without any counterplay when they get ahead and are oppressivly annyoing to play against if you have to face them regularily (e.g. zed atm, still highly banned while mostly on the weaker side of things). So if you do that you have all the leeway to do "proper" balancing focused around high elo/pro play without ruining things for everyone in the lower tiers.

dEAdbUs3 votes

I have to agree with that.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

That's completely false on the playtesting team being to blame.

Internal playtesting is never going to get something balanced out of the gate. Period. It's not going to happen. This is because a sample size of...let's make a super rough guess and say twenty people...will never hold a candle to a full group of people. Building on this, pros are always going to be better at the game than Riot. If your dev/playtest team is better than the pros, you probably haven't made a good game. That said, in ultra-egregious circumstances yes, playtest is at fault...but playtest is only a small piece to the puzzle.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

that´s not what i said. it´s about getting sth balancable out (sth. that will be balanced eventually, not right from the get go) - and sth. that feels good to play and play against. Both these things just very rarly happen in recent years...and this is to blame on the designers and on the playtesters that don´t tell those designers that their ideas might be unique, but they hurt the game in the long run.

VoidStaresBack7 votes

A lot of the current issues stem from the disparity between new and old champions because of Riot's new design direction. Riot has begun making champions that simply have more stuff in their kits than most of the old champions do and are consequently harder to master, but at the same time they can feel unfair when compared against the vast number of older champions with simpler kits. This is why champions like Zed and Yasuo are so hated in normals and Kalista and Azir dominated the professional scene before getting nerfed to the point they became incredibly weak in normals. In the end, whether you like it or not, it appears that Riot is trying to make champion kits more dynamic and update the older champions to that form, and I think as more and more champions are released and reworked there will be less complaining about "annoying champions" and more about truly broken ones from a balance standpoint, as the general balance of the game will have shifted to balancing around more complicated kits.

Smalltomahawker2 votes

Its true. Its like if your playing ranked against a lane opponent say in low elo woudl you rather play vs Yasuo or Garen ? You know anyone and everyone can easily play Garen and he is going to stomp the early and mid game but generally falls of late game. Meanwhile most low elo Yasuo players are terrible and will feed their asses off.

But compare that to high elo where Garen will be rarely seen since his simple kit is also simple to counter meanwhile Yasuo would be more highly picked at a bigger threat in higher elo since players can play him more effectively and would be harder to counter.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Sorry but where did Zed dominate professional scene? Even in his "hurr durr broken state" a few patches ago i've seen him three times. Faker, two times Febiven? I mean i don#t watch every EU and NA game so i might be wrong but i never saw Zed as more than a gimmick or niche pick in pro scene.

VoidStaresBack1 votes

Whoops that was supposed to be Azir, good catch.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Thought so haha.

Mandang05 votes

I think you're leaving out the most important reason here: Champ DESIGN.

If Riot rebalanced the entire game around pro play, do you think we'd see a huge increase in diversity? ...or would the pros just pick the best few out of a handful of interchangeable champs like they always have? Regardless of Riot's balance decisions, they've explicitly avoided the diversity of mechanics in Dota that lead to hard counters. Take Galio for a potential example of a champ who would benefit when Riot rebalances for pro play: left unchecked, a (now strong) Galio ult could win entire games, which I don't think the pro scene would want. Dota has similar, even stronger ults, but Dota also has other spells/actives to deal with them. League doesn't.

The other side of this is that some design decisions are making league champs harder to balance for both pro and casual play. Contrast someone like Azir with someone like Morgana. Morgana has a very simple kit that lends itself to both styles of play well, while Azir requires a lot of practice to do well and thrives in high-level play as opposed to DQ. Another thing that makes this difficult is how "mechanics intensive" champs are when those mechanics don't really add any counterplay. RIven's a great example of this - she's balanced around animation canceling, which higher level players will have and lower ones won't. However, in most mechanics' cases, the opposing players will also be more skilled at counterplaying them, while there's nothing to counterplay about the animation canceling itself. Contrast that with something like Nid spears or Blitz hooks etc.

Lastly, just not to leave it out, is the fact that casual and pro play are usually different formats anyway - one's 5v5 and the other is a bunch of strangers playing together without voice comms. As such, coordination champs are going to thrive in pro play while not so much in DQ (Taliyah for example). Not much else to say about it, but I think these are all ways Riot can alleviate the problem without asking to community to "bite the bullet". Increase item diversity, stop making kits that read like a novel, and try to stop designing kits focused around 5v5.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Yeah your last sentence is hell of a problem. Recent reworks and latest released champs cry for "pick/ban status in lcs". Which is a huge problem. I don't think it is good to rework champs or release completely new champs with kits only actually useable in pro play/5v5

Aptest2 votes

I can find no fault in your analisys

Sona x Rubick2 votes

not saying you're wrong.

but icefrog does balance the game sometimes around pubs.

ie: omniknight's ulti nerf 1 year ago (removing hp regen) + omniknight's degen aura no longer going through magic immunity in 6.87.

omniknight is trash in pros because of diffusal blade, while in pub none likes to be forced to build an item, and that's why he was picked one time in ti while he has the highest win rate in pub.

crippler381 votes

why would diffusal blade make him trash? the mana drain or the purge on his magic immunity and his phys immunity?

Sona x Rubick1 votes

purge the magic immunity and physical immunity.

to make him viable in competition, you would need to make one of the two non-purgeable because support omniknight is also squishy and can be killed quickly. there are a lot of way to make omniknight better in competition and i'm waiting to see how ice-frog will balance him.

also, he might becomes better once diffusal blade will be nerfed, because this item was built 24/7.

crippler381 votes

makes sense, that and obviously he can't beat the glory that is elder titan's echo stomp.

I swear a more satisfying sound has never once been made in a moba.

Ahristocats1 votes

which means that dota also balances the game around both scenes

iTaLenTZ2 votes

Great post. Add 10 bans to counter the biggest negatives affects on normal queue and you are done.

FightingIris2 votes

I think that now that they have gone to a best of 3 situation is the perfect time to try something new. I think that once a champion is selected for a game in a series they should be removed from the que for potential picks for both teams. Therefore you would see at least 6 different junglers and toplaners in a 3 game series. It would make for more interesting picks and priorities. Plus you would see new strats and comps. I know I for one love it when a Zac, Fiddle or Blitz gets picked randomly. I mean there is only so much shen, gnar, ekko I can watch and stay glued to the edge of my seat for.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Yeah. Everytime i get the message there is some LCS game now i open it, wait for the pick/ban phase and if i see another azir, ekko, gragas, rek, nidalee i instantly leave the stream.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

Bottom Line: The community has to be the agent of change if we want more diverse pro play and we're also going to have to be the ones to have a less-than-perfect normal queue.

You're right friend, but I don't give a flying fuck about how diverse a bunch of virginal awkward neckbeard's champion picks when playing in front of people are, so I'd prefer we say fuck pro play and push Riot to focusing on balancing the actual game as it is intended to be played by players. Unfortunately, a huge portion of League's playerbase are actually stupid enough to care more about what champions can be viably watched in pro play than what champions can be viably played, and lap the cringefest that is LoL esports up.

Now, I'm not saying the game's balance should take the subhumans that largely consist of low elo in mind. The game should solely be balanced around high elo play, but not professional play.

Though I do know that Rito needs find its withering testicles and just make a decision, even if it's not the one I'd prefer. I guess I can look forward to stomping through ranked with Master Yi once he is actually being balanced to be viable in professional play.

Atanchan1 votes

Sometimes I wonder if Riot should just makes a separate game entirely for people who aren't pros and are below either Masters or Challenger.

I mean, that'd make actually going pro or climbing to the top of the ranks like bashing your head into the wall because suddenly you're forced to play an entirely different game with entirely different feel and how the characters work, but that seems like it's exactly what the boards want.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Sometimes I wonder if Riot should just makes a separate game entirely for people who aren't pros and are below either Masters or Challenger.

I mean, that'd make actually going pro or climbing to the top of the ranks like bashing your head into the wall because suddenly you're forced to play an entirely different game with entirely different feel and how the characters work, but that seems like it's exactly what the boards want.

While the characters are all the same, the Pros are playing a completely different game.

Ranked 5s on voice chat is a whole different beast from solo. Riot tried to make standard play closer to pro play via Dynamic Queue, but we all know how that went down.

Atanchan2 votes

This is true, but I ( probably obviously ) meant making the game literally different, through the code itself.

That way they could buff, say, Azir to his former glory of not being that good outside of pro-play but still not a dead chicken, without actually bringing back the terror he was in pro-play.

Of course, that's a pretty dumb idea, but it seems like it's exactly what boards wants lately. Of course of course, then they'll probably suddenly realize what a dumb idea it is and then complain about how that destroys the potential of going pro because then they'd have to get to Masters / Challenger, instantly get used to the entirely different environment in both how people play and the fact that the game is actually genuinely different from what they've been playing before, and not get an unlucky streak that tosses them back down into the "normals" game. Not to mention how they'd complain about how they're being locked out of the "real" game, or how pros "get off easy" and don't have to play the "real game" ...

Frankly I'd still support Riot's decision to do so, though, since that could remove the issues with balancing between the disparity of pros vs. people who don't even touch ranked, and because it'd give people like this something to really complain about when a player or even an entire team that knows what they're doing mess around in normals using the highly abusive champions.

More from Gameplay

More by CaptainMårvelous