Overwatch is REMOVING performance-based "SR" gains from their ladder

chipndip1··47 votes·18,011 views

I made a thread stating that League SHOULDN'T have outlying factors affect your lp gains. This is just further emphasizing a point I made from before. Another popular game tried this shit and it sucked. League doesn't need it. If you win, you get lp. If you lose, you lose lp. Yeah, it sucks that you can get fed and lose due to someone being stupid, but it's better than people playing sub-optimally or gimping your team comp just so you can farm lp.

Now, they're only removing it for their Diamond tier and higher, but if this is being done to improve Overwatch's ranked game mode, to remove this type of feature, clearly it's in League's best interest to not even bother.

93 Comments

RiotZenonTheStoic48 votes

We had this conversation more than 8 years ago. There are absolutely improvements you can keep making to matchmaking, but having an algorithm guess how much you contributed to a win I don't think is a very promising approach.

Salson20 votes

You worked at the same place for 8 years?

That's actually kind of awesome, I started hating my boss after 3 months.

Lux Is Mai Waifu3 votes

Riot is infamously cult-like.

kargish28 votes

Every year you must sacrifice 3 champions for the rework machine. Otherwise your soul is damned in hell.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

I mean like their employees become religiously devoted to the scummy p2w company they work for.

Jorencice15 votes

P2w huh? Where can i get my self some p2w action.

Im a whale so im ready for the damage buff i can buy.

notice me Sin pi2 votes

technically, skins can be p2w or p2lose. Foxfire Ahri is known for having smoother aa animation, which impacts CSing. Steel Legion Lux has harder-to-see visuals, which makes opposing players react to skillshots slightly slower than usual. The 0.01sec can be the difference between landing the snare on enemy ADC 50min into the game and destroying their nexus, or not landing the snare and losing the teamfight&nexus. Dragonwing Corki 's E particles are extremely misleading for enemy players; it's hard to tell exactly how much the AoE covers.

And list goes on. None are stat buffs i think rito removed leona&sunglass interaction but unsure when they did, but they do impact gameplay slightly. Legend says that some skins are even banned from LCS due to gameplay impact.

EDIT: why am i wrong? i want an explanation. Or is it downvote bots majority's ability to change even laws of universe?

Jorencice4 votes

Becuase those complaints are the same as

He has 5 more ping than me thus internet is p2w.

Or his mouse has a higher dpi thus mice are p2w

Or his monitor is smaller so he has less area to cover with clicks. Thus his screen is p2w

He has a tighter mechanical keyboard allowing for faster keystrokes. His keyboard is p2w.

He spent more on ram/cpu/graphics cards thus his entire fucking computer is p2w.

You see where im getting at yet.

P2w would be steel legion lux dealing 100 more damage on every attack.

Hell no one even cared about leonas 1 less damage to people with sunglasses because the difference was so minute it was unnoticeable.

Skins arent p2w.

Period.

End of story. (Other wise pros would use specific ones and not what ever they enjoy)

rtbf2256182411 votes

Achtcually there are a few skins that are visually giving you an advantage but they're so few in number that i can't even remember all of them. I remember Boom Boom Blitz having a slightly longer grab range but it was like a millimeter or so.

Jorencice1 votes

Ive read a red post on that. The grab range visually looks longer but the actual coded grab is the same distance.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Whoever is right or wrong, it should be fixed by now anyway.

The Ender Cobra3 votes

p2w You mean pay to win? Because if you mean pay to win you could not be more wrong. When I convinced my friends to play League of Legends the biggest selling point was the fact it is completely free. It is entirely possible for someone to be the Rank 1 player in South Korean solo queue without spending a single penny on this game. Regardless of enjoyment, League of Legends is by far the highest quality Free to Play video game in the world. There is nothing you could spend real money on that would make you more or less likely to win a game of League. I do not understand your logic so if you could explain your reasoning that'd be great.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

having access to more rune pages and champions is an advantage you can access from your wallet instead of grinding it out for like 5 years

The Ender Cobra1 votes

Anyone without paying can just put together a rune page in champ select. Buying rune pages isn't enough of a advantage to be considered pay to win.

big boi edri2 votes

Yeah, I've got a good job and really enjoy League. If I can P2W, please tell me how. I'll dump plenty into it for some kind of advantage.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

buy all the champs and rune pages; you now have paid for an advantage in the pick/ban phase

Busty Demoness1 votes

Pretty sure he was referring to Riot as a company, because he may not have been (pretty sure he wasn't) working at Riot when they were a startup.

DarkKatalyst3 votes

It's really bothersome for duo bot too. Even though my ADC may play every ranked game with me, we don't get synchronized amounts of LP. I've had a few times when my ADC was anywhere from 3 to 10 LP behind, meaning at some point I was in my series and he wasn't. Thankfully we've won or lost our series consecutively each time, but had it not gone that way...

option paralysis2 votes

{quoted}

We had this conversation more than 8 years ago. There are absolutely improvements you can keep making to matchmaking, but having an algorithm guess how much you contributed to a win I don't think is a very promising approach.

please do something about diamond 5 division. it's literally so bad it made me stop playing ranked 3 years in a row. I can't stand it anymore. also, if you matchmake people based on mmr then put them in the division that suits that mmr. anything else just feels underwhelming and like the game is forcing you to grind.

Cosnirak2 votes

That's why you design it to not be a guess and to be targeted at big outliers. It should be about catching people who are clearly at the wrong rating and correcting their rating some, not nickle and dimeing people up or down every game. Which is why it doesn't really work well at high ELO. If you get that high it's very unlikely your rating is far off unless you've been literally boosted.

The Great Duck2 votes

How? It would promote everyone to try their best, even when behind, with the hopes that they can maybe salvage some of the LP they'd have lost. A black and white win/loss result in this ridiculously snowball(y) meta with 15 minute /ff votes, if anything, promotes the complete opposite. "Nah, this game's over, move onto the next one," rather than playing it out for another 8 minutes, sometimes winning (especially possible in lower elos) and Learning something to strengthen players.

Meriipu28 votes

{quoted}

but it's better than people playing sub-optimally or gimping your team comp just so you can farm lp.

mfw that is exactly how S ratings for hextech chests work, rather than rewarding teamwork instead of purely selfish play. [sg-lulu]

Z3Sleeper14 votes

It totally promotes teamwork. Feed your ass off while someone in your premade gets an S so you get a chest.

TEAMWORK!

Meriipu2 votes

{quoted}

It totally promotes teamwork. Feed your ass off while someone in your premade gets an S so you get a chest.

TEAMWORK!

Not feeding is not enough to get an S.

  • If you really want the S you have to steal every ward last hit even if another player on your team found it and made the first 2-3 hits on it
  • Take all the farm in whatever lane you are in even if it is not your lane
  • Take buffs from jungler
  • Do everything you can to get the kill even if another player on your team is about to get the kill.
  • Can you push to win, but there is a lane with a ton of farm? Go get the farm to pad your creep score.
  • Is a risky teamfight about to happen that could end the game, and your score is currently good enough to get an S? Better sit it out and let your team lose it; you might lose the game but you are more likely to get an S.

This is not always strictly necessary, but it is the best way of ensuring you get an S

Is this teamwork? Hardly, but it is the behaviour riot encourages by giving S ratings based on individual ingame numbers/scores, and trying to deny it by saying it is possible without doing the above is foolish, because doing the above maximizes your probability of getting an S rating, regardless of how selfish it is.

Chermorg7 votes

I’d love to see your statistics or proof backing up those points you make, because I’m pretty sure all but the last one are absolute crap, and hell even that one may be too. I have literally gotten an S on Illaoi before with a score of 2/10, maybe 200 farm or so (not amazing by any means), did not steal kills at all, got 0 buffs that game, and didn’t clear any wards.

The S is based on your play of the champion in relation to others playing the same champion. I feel like it’s more based on your accuracy and combos, not based on the statistics you say. If you’re doing amazing to help the team even with a crap score, you can still get an S if your play is good.

Meriipu3 votes

{quoted}

I’d love to see your statistics or proof backing up those points you make, because I’m pretty sure all but the last one are absolute crap, and hell even that one may be too. I have literally gotten an S on Illaoi before with a score of 2/10, maybe 200 farm or so (not amazing by any means), did not steal kills at all, got 0 buffs that game, and didn’t clear any wards.

The S is based on your play of the champion in relation to others playing the same champion. I feel like it’s more based on your accuracy and combos, not based on the statistics you say. If you’re doing amazing to help the team even with a crap score, you can still get an S if your play is good.

That just means the bar for getting an S on illaoi is really low. By stealing last hits and not playing risky, you maximize your probability of getting any S rating, even if it is not strictly necessary.

If you want to maximize your chances of getting an S, they way the system is designed now, you play greedily and selfishly with no regard to anyone on your team. It is that simple, and until riot changes the system, that is what they are (indirectly) promoting.

Downvote me all you want, I am not wrong here.

Chermorg4 votes

I actually haven't voted on your post at all. As you can see the voting is not lit up or down - I didn't vote https://puu.sh/yFFxf/47bdd8e509.png

That being said, I understand those are your opinions and beliefs, but myself and others have asked for proof of your claims. Evidence that is based merely on a very small sample size of observations that are not 100% accurate is not evidence that proves anything. I can understand if you still believe those to be true, but until you provide evidence for them I find it likely you'll get downvoted and people won't believe you.

Meriipu2 votes

{quoted}

I actually haven't voted on your post at all. As you can see the voting is not lit up or down - I didn't vote https://puu.sh/yFFxf/47bdd8e509.png

That being said, I understand those are your opinions and beliefs, but myself and others have asked for proof of your claims. Evidence that is based merely on a very small sample size of observations that are not 100% accurate is not evidence that proves anything. I can understand if you still believe those to be true, but until you provide evidence for them I find it likely you'll get downvoted and people won't believe you.

Yeah I should probably have specified that the "downvote me all you wish" was not necessarily at you, but some people certainly are.

I do not see what more evidence is needed than the stuff riot already provided as a basis for hextech ratings:

  • ward score
  • creep score
  • kills
  • few deaths
  • assists
  • objective damage

If your intention is to maximize these then the only two that benefit less from greedy play is objective damage and assists. And also unless you are a support it is likely that kills completely outweigh assists It is possible to get decent scores in all of these by playing as a team, but if you wish to be sure, you should try your very best to last hit every ward, and every kill, and play more safely than what is good for your teams victory.

Other than that, if you wish to maximize them, play greedily. That way you maximize your chances of an S rating.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

{quoted}

I’d love to see your statistics or proof backing up those points you make, because I’m pretty sure all but the last one are absolute crap, and hell even that one may be too. I have literally gotten an S on Illaoi before with a score of 2/10, maybe 200 farm or so (not amazing by any means), did not steal kills at all, got 0 buffs that game, and didn’t clear any wards.

The S is based on your play of the champion in relation to others playing the same champion. I feel like it’s more based on your accuracy and combos, not based on the statistics you say. If you’re doing amazing to help the team even with a crap score, you can still get an S if your play is good.

I don't really know how the grading system works. I went 12/3/30 as jayce in aram and got a b+ . If I would have gotten good cs would that have boosted my grade multiple tiers? Also went 9/0/6 as talon in an sr game and got an A. Do people really feed that hard on illaoi in relation to talon where a 2/10 score gave you an s rank? Sorry, I'm trying to understand this haha. Also a long time ago I played a singed game and went 27/0/20 and 200cs in a 40 min game(I know the cs score sucks lol). Back then proxy singed was the main way to play him so it's highly unlikely that the average s rank singed would have a kda like that so how much does dying really affect your rank i wonder?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

CS appears (based off my limited experience) to be a REALLY big factor in determining grade. Also, did you win that Jayce game? If you went 12/3/30 but lost the game and got little to no CS, I could see A- to B+ rating as being likely.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ITHPP6nX,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-13T22:32:11.712+0000)

CS appears (based off my limited experience) to be a REALLY big factor in determining grade. Also, did you win that Jayce game? If you went 12/3/30 but lost the game and got little to no CS, I could see A- to B+ rating as being likely.

We actually won lol that's why I was confused. As a support does it still determine your grade though?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Yep. Same factors are used in each role. Which makes support grades all the more miserable, because as a non-carry so much of your final grade is determined by your allies' performance.

Sraeg201311 votes

You literally can go 0/20 with 0 CS and you will still get a chest for the champion you're playing if your fuckbuddy premade gets an S.

Meriipu1 votes

{quoted}

You literally can go 0/20 with 0 CS and you will still get a chest for the champion you're playing if your fuckbuddy premade gets an S.

And your premade maximizes their chances of getting that S for you two by playing selfishly. It changes nothing except you can defend them while they AFK farm to pad their score or whatever.

I feel like people think I am saying you have to play greedily, I never said that. What I am saying is, playing greedily is rewarded more than playing as a team.

Sraeg20132 votes

And everybody is telling you that you personally don't have to play superbly or even good, because EVERYBODY in a premade gets the chest if ONLY ONE players gets it.

Jerry SeinfeId13 votes

Yes, that wouldn't be needed in league. The Problem in league is mmr and LP. Riot should pick one not both.

What's the point of me playing against s2-g5 to prove i'm s3?

Blåbæret8 votes

It should exist in lower elos. When you consistently overperform in games stacked against you but still lose a crap ton of LP due to garbage teammates, then your loss should be reduced.

Sasogwa3 votes

{quoted}

It should exist in lower elos. When you consistently overperform in games stacked against you but still lose a crap ton of LP due to garbage teammates, then your loss should be reduced.

Eh, should it really? Some people might be better in laning yet absolutly oblivious to how to win a game, take objectives etc.

Karunamon5 votes

Laning isn't the only measure of performance.

If you:

  • Get decent CS
  • Have decent KDA
  • Have high kill participation
  • Secure or participate in securing a high number of objectives
  • Have a high vision score

(read: if you're reliably getting S ranks on your champion)

..then you are probably playing the game quite well by any objective measure.

Lock On2 votes

And unfortunately, that side of the story is completely tossed out when LP is decided purely by winning/losing matches. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept for Riot to understand. Nobody should ever have to play tens or hundreds of extra games due to the incompetence of others. At least, as others have said, your individual skill as a player should somehow be taken into account when it comes to calculating LP.

Hibeki6 votes

Just in general, your teammates should not entirely reflect your rank as a player. I should have SOME control over my ranked gains in my games....

RankOneUganda1 votes

{quoted}

It should exist in lower elos. When you consistently overperform in games stacked against you but still lose a crap ton of LP due to garbage teammates, then your loss should be reduced.

I have been in bronze silver and gold and low platinum (not anymore currently getting closer to diamond).

people in low elo. experiment. or not care. in every game. there is a first timer. potentially a fraustrated person. and a casual that doesn't care. and 1 person that know what they are doing. or maybe 2. its rarely more than 2 in low elo

they should definitely implement performance based gains upto diamond imo. not by much. but I'd say. 25%.

FourVsFive4 votes

Afkers should lose more LP and feeders. A simple system that can determine how long you sitting around fountain for more then 1min and if you going 0/10/0 showing you not helping with assists and such makes it kinda obvious u feeding on purpose.

woodvsmurph4 votes

And yet isn't HOT's adding something like this to ranked? So it's a different story maybe depending on the TYPE of game. 3rd person vs 1st person, laning-based vs non-laning-based game. Also, there's no itemization and leveling up abilities in overwatch, but there is in league and hots. If it can be done PROPERLY, I am entirely in favor of performance-based Ip gains or losses. If I'm getting bot lanes that go 1/7/0 in laning phase, shove blindly without warding, ignore mia's and danger pings, and FORCE fights vs enemies they fed (as though they stand a better chance of winning now that the enemy has 1500 gold more in items and they couldn't win when it was even in gold); I want to lose less Ip for this if I perform above average. The problem is, much of this can be immeasurable by statistics. Kda can be a horrible indicator. Gold farmed - well, we've seen in the pro scene some of the best adc's don't actually have the highest gpm, but when you look at their opponent's gpm, it is half of what is expected from that opponent because that best adc zones the opponent off farm so well. Similarly, you might have low kill participation, but be winning a difficult matchup while being camped by the enemy jg or constantly roamed on by the enemy mid and bot laners or top laner. So it LOOKS like you did little to help your team, but in reality, you absorbed a TON of pressure, remained relevant, kept up map pressure as much as possible, and still won 2v2's or 1v1's whenever not being ganked. Or maybe, you got your opponent's tower really low w/o any help from your team, but then due to need for lane rotations an inopportune fight causing you to have to leave, you miss out on killing the tower and the gold it gives; then it just goes into stats as an accomplishment by minions or your teammates while it doesn't look half as amazing in your stat line even though you did most of the work. Conversely, you could feed all of laning phase, get carried by your teammates mid game, be relevant in terms of damage by late game, carry ONE fight all game, and win. Then, if you'd "ks'd" well in those mid game fights to become relevant, you have an amazing kda; meanwhile, your teammate who had to carry those midgame fights and die every time so your team would come out ahead has a mediocre kda by game's end even though he/she did much more work than you. Thus, your Ip gain might be inflated while his/hers might be lower than it should be based on actual performance. Stuff like that is the only problem I can see with making Ip gain/loss performance-based.

Battalion3 votes

I'm unaware of these "SR" gains. Explain?

Leetri2 votes

You get more SR (LP in League) or lose less SR by doing certain actions better than other players playing the same hero. For example, there were several people playing only Mercy with around 35% win rate in Grandmaster (basically Challenger) who got there solely by hiding and not participating in the game and then using their ult to revive their entire team at any time they could, even if it was a total waste and it throws the game. Sure, they got a lot of big revives off, but a lot of them were detrimental to the team or complete wastes. The game didn't consider that though and just looked at the big numbers. To put it in League terms, imagine if you could get to Challenger as Soraka by just staying in fountain and ulting every time your team got low HP.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

{quoted}

To put it in League terms, imagine if you could get to Challenger as Soraka by just staying in fountain and ulting every time your team got low HP.

and it isn't possible

so why are we making this thread?

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

{quoted}

and it isn't possible

so why are we making this thread?

Because if it was ever implemented it'd be a trash idea because of outliers like that

Overwatch had to keep tweaking ranked so SR gains on every hero was balanced and it still penalizes you if you swap heroes which is a core game mechanic because it only cares about your scores for the average for that hero. It makes competitive rank you wildly low unless you're a one trick and a bunch of one tricks are getting temp bans for "Refusing to communicate" so its a fucking mess overall.

Now given everyone selects roles beforehand and you get one champion the one trick thing is less relevant but if there were metrics like wards placed or successful ults giving you bonus LP you could end up with scenarios like he mentioned, where a Soraka warding in shitty spots but rapidly and pressing R in fountain to boost the healing # would basically reduce LP loss or increase LP gains despite not actually factoring game contribution, merely your average compared to other players on that champ. Riot has no plans to implement this system but anyone that suggests this should be aware of the consequences of trying to implement this mess of a feature just to buffer LP loss in hard games.

Mathix3 votes

League has probably the most flawed ranking system of any competitive game I've ever played. There are so many people of varying skill levels and so many variables that the system can only be so accurate when it comes to judging how good you are. I have a dozen friends that play at all levels (bronze-diamond) and while a few of them definitely belong where they are I can honestly say most of them are pretty even skill wise. Ranked is more about who's willing to put in the time and effort to move up as opposed to who's actually better. I've also spectated literally hundreds of games over the years (especially back when it was easily accessible on the client) and I see absolutely no difference in play between gold and diamond games. Hell, I've even watched challenger/pro players in solo queue and it's nothing like people would expect (LCS) and even those games become massive blood baths of people feeding with low cs counts. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is written fact, there are definitely outliers of extremely skilled (or unskilled players) in ranks they may or may not deserve to be in.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

The fuck is SR?

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