Tanks SUCKS, building armor feels horrible, champion that are not tank killers are tank killers.

taleofsonata·Feb 18, 2019·58 votes·14,781 views

Why can she have the same amount of sustain I have? I had 248 armor, I MAXED W on malphite, why does she do soo much damage? She has the same amount of tankyness I have while building DAMAGE? ADC are suppose to counter tanks late game, but bruiser counter tanks early game? The only lane tanks can go is top lane? I don't understand whats the balance philosophy in this game. It is soo horribly BAD, she can tower dive me and kill me?

I don't see mages countering Assassins mid lane, Tanks are suppose to counter bruiser top lane. Stop listening to hashinshin about tank being op, FIX YOUR GAME. IT SUCKS TO PLAY THIS SHIT EVERY SINGLE TIME. I want to play a TANK, why am I punish for building ARMOR? Whats the benefit of building ARMOR if you take soo much DAMAGE EVEN UNDER TOWER. Why is the turret range for TOP AND MID LANE soo short? Riven can E and AA and E back? Why is that even ALLOWED.

Why is the armor runes only 6 armor why not 10? Why is cloth armor only 15 instead of 20? Why can AD champion have an easier time farming than TANKS? Have you try last hitting with a TANK? It feels horrible!

124 Comments

DunkProphetFeb 18, 201922 votes

Nah thats just Riven being broken. Perma ban her in ranked my dude

The thigh guyFeb 18, 201915 votes

Because tanks are actual dog shit not. There is so much in place to just make them worthless. Last whisper Black cleaver Guinsuu BORK Bloodrazor Liandries Void staff Conquerer Lethality M pen Every champion ever having % hp damage, %pen or inate true damage. Grevious wounds.

All this together has turned tanks Into walking jokes. And now we wait for everyone to bring up the one exception being sion

Celestial Lion12Feb 19, 20193 votes

the only reason sion is viable is because he is the tankiest champ in the game with his infinitely scaling health, he is the only champ tanky enough to still fill that role, where other tanks might bring more dmg or utility to the table, even as tanks they just cant survive.

LordGeovanniFeb 20, 20193 votes

Sion doesnt do well because he is tanky even if he is tankier than other champions he does well because he does a shit ton of damage when grouped with allies or forces the enemy team to stop dealing damage and run from his q while his team is still doing damage because once again it does a shit ton of damage (sion usually builds bruiser not full tnak and even when he builds full tank he is usually using runes to give him ad thus making him a bruiser) and disrupts people much more reliably than some one like orrn or galio. Same reasoning applies for poppy

ExxonVFeb 19, 20191 votes

Lethality and pen items are legit the worst items to build vs a tank, the point of them is you shave off a set value of that defense from someone who has very little of it like a squishy. The highest a defense value, the less it is worth, so penetrating a high armor stat is useless.

Im not sure which one of these items you'd even complain about as they're all for different types of champs to have a chance at damaging a tank. Except rageblade, i have legit no idea why you even listed that item as it has nothing to do with tank busting.

The thigh guyFeb 19, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Lethality and pen items are legit the worst items to build vs a tank, the point of them is you shave off a set value of that defense from someone who has very little of it like a squishy. The highest a defense value, the less it is worth, so penetrating a high armor stat is useless.

Im not sure which one of these items you'd even complain about as they're all for different types of champs to have a chance at damaging a tank. Except rageblade, i have legit no idea why you even listed that item as it has nothing to do with tank busting.

Um what? %pen + conquerer litteraly makes tanks the most irrelevant class in the game. Those two things on their own killed the tank role.

Imagine if there was an item that removed 24% of all of your ap/ad. People would lose their shit. So why is that okay for armor?

LordGeovanniFeb 20, 20191 votes

item 3089 was championed as dog shit when it had 100 ap and 35% ability power increase. item 3031 same thing when it had 65 ad or gave 15% crit chance while still amplifying crit to 250%.

PB4UAMEFeb 22, 20192 votes

People disliked Deathcap's build path and cost, and ADCs whined and bitched that straight up rushing IE (or BT before it) wasn't the end all be all best decision every game. It. . . It's really not comparable.

LordGeovanniFeb 22, 20191 votes

Ive never heard the build path argument just that its too expensive for Providing the best stats in the game that they couldnt rush it early cause it was 'so expensive' and that some how buying it first and getting bonus ap on every item after is different than buying it 4th and getting a chunk of bonus ap for all the rest of the items that were already bought.

heroikcFeb 18, 201913 votes

Amen....

AmenPersonFeb 18, 201925 votes

Hi. I'm Amen. Funnily enough, a tank main.

heroikcFeb 18, 201910 votes

{quoted}

Hi. I'm Amen. Funnily enough, a tank main.

Sorry, didn't mean to call you.

wolviusFeb 18, 201911 votes

Don't forget better mobility and more CC than malphite. (excluding death as cc in this case)

Pandemic PunchFeb 18, 20192 votes

Lol I love the joke at the end. Nice touch

Bloodrage ShadowFeb 18, 20199 votes

Conqueror. Aside from that, permaban Riven. She's stupid strong right now; but don't worry because if Riot decides to nerf her, it'll be 6 months from now lol. Only counter play to Riven is the player playing her being bad.

Frontline FuryFeb 18, 20199 votes

Hey remember back when you picked Malphite to counter heavy AD champs rather than heavy AD champs to counter Malphite?

hhaavviikkFeb 19, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMmE9fAq,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-02-18T21:22:26.293+0000)

Hey remember back when you picked Malphite to counter heavy AD champs rather than heavy AD champs to counter Malphite?

I remember when ADC's got reworked we had 4 ADC's per game, malphite got popular and you know what happened? malphite got nerfed, satan forbid malphite is strong when facing a team of 4 ADC's, even back then riot's bias was real

feintfiendFeb 18, 20197 votes

Riven is so busted but i rarely see ppl complaing Absolute AIDs champ to face. If they're good there's no counterplay entire lane depends on how well they know the champ.

WolkenssFeb 18, 20196 votes

According to op.gg, you died six times in that game. The Riven died five times and only had two kills, so at most only two of those kills were from laning against you as said Riven. Riven also had a 40 CS advantage on you.

You rushed full armour, that's true. But you built a sheen at the ten minute mark and didn't buy a single health item until you purchased a single ruby crystal at twenty minutes into the game. Sheen is a trading or an all-in item, you buy it to engage and kill your lane opponent and you're really going to live or die by that decision. The Riven rushed a Duskblade by ten minutes (she didn't even have boots) and a Lord Dominik's by seventeen minutes. That's a lot of armour shred, and yet even with those items she only had one kill on you, a negative KDA and roughly comparable damage dealt over the course of the game.

You seem to be under the impression you should be able to just stack a million cloth armours and ignore your opponent. I'm afraid that's not the case. Damage always outscales defenses if the player uses it correctly. This is by design and has always been this way. It would be virtually impossible to close games out otherwise.

taleofsonataFeb 18, 20194 votes

{quoted}

According to op.gg, you died six times in that game. The Riven died five times and only had two kills, so at most only two of those kills were from laning against you as said Riven. Riven also had a 40 CS advantage on you.

You rushed full armour, that's true. But you built a sheen at the ten minute mark and didn't buy a single health item until you purchased a single ruby crystal at twenty minutes into the game. Sheen is a trading or an all-in item, you buy it to engage and kill your lane opponent and you're really going to live or die by that decision. The Riven rushed a Duskblade by ten minutes (she didn't even have boots) and a Lord Dominik's by seventeen minutes. That's a lot of armour shred, and yet even with those items she only had one kill on you, a negative KDA and roughly comparable damage dealt over the course of the game.

You seem to be under the impression you should be able to just stack a million cloth armours and ignore your opponent. I'm afraid that's not the case. Damage always outscales defenses if the player uses it correctly. This is by design and has always been this way. It would be virtually impossible to close games out otherwise.

I don't think you know how to read the match, by the time I got sheen the laning phase was already over. I took sheen to punish her harrassing me under tower, she died at most 2 times in lane and the rest outside of laning phase. She only had duskblade in lane, she killed my many time with 3 longsword while I had 158 armor. She got lord dominik outside of laning phase, at this point I just left the lane and tried to teamfight. Instead of using op.gg to look into the game you know you have the client? The client you can see at what moment someone has an item. Stop bullshitting with op.gg, it doesn't show the bigger picture.

WolkenssFeb 19, 20199 votes

OK, there's a lot to unpack here.

First of all, op.gg doesn't lie. The data is ripped straight from League's API.

Again, Riven only had two kills the entire game, so your claim that she died "at most" twice in lane actually makes your case even worse. It means even if she killed you both times, you still went even. You may have had six deaths that game but it is categorically impossible that it was Riven who was killing you even the majority of the time.

But I downloaded the replay to take a look since you're adamant I'm in the wrong. I'm not sure why you've done this, because the replay tells a very, very different story to the one in your OP.

At the six minute mark, you facetanked and solo killed the Riven inside her creep wave despite being underleveled and 20 CS down:

https://i.imgur.com/jCgzish.png[\img]

You then died once to her at the nine minute mark, she blew her ult and you did not. You died a second time three minutes later, but by this time she had a finished item, a level advantage and 30 CS over you. Again, you didn't use your ult while Riven did.

Despite her substantial lead, she was still coming out the worse on trades, for instance at the fifteen minute mark:

https://i.imgur.com/mqB3Ds4.png[\img]

And in fact, you outdamaged the Riven despite building nearly pure defense the entire game:

https://i.imgur.com/ThCNJhL.png[\img]

In truth, the game was decided by a monstrously fed jungle Twitch who ended the game 20/1/4. Had it not been for Twitch it's by no means a given that you would've lost that game.

My point here is not to criticise your play but to show that the claims you are making simply aren't true. When we lose a game we get emotional, it's natural. But you are not looking objectively at what happened.

DurzakaFeb 19, 20195 votes

Well said.

Super misleading and stupid information in the OP of this post.

Akali is SO HOTFeb 19, 20192 votes

oof

WatafoolFeb 19, 20195 votes

I feel like Shen should be a good baseline of what a tank should be capable of. He provides cc, damage negation, shields for his allies and himself.

Unfortunately his attack negation is pretty meaningless because it has such a short duration and also there is a much higher emphasis on ability damage rather than basic attacks.

If burst damage was brought down some and fight durations we're extended champs like shen would be much better

Jennifer420Feb 18, 20194 votes

simply put: rito has no idea how to balance meele ad champs. they showed this with pretty much every champ. they keep making bullshit stuff like "yeah meele ad champs need 10 shields and 50 heals and 300 dashes, also true damage and %max hp damage" etc etc.

thats why. you can be a 800 armor rammus and riven will easily 1v1 you with black cleaver alone. you have 0 damage to get through her shield which she has every few seconds. not to mention she can easily get away and stun you.

Crescent DuskFeb 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

simply put: rito has no idea how to balance meele ad champs. they showed this with pretty much every champ. they keep making bullshit stuff like "yeah meele ad champs need 10 shields and 50 heals and 300 dashes, also true damage and %max hp damage" etc etc.

thats why. you can be a 800 armor rammus and riven will easily 1v1 you with black cleaver alone. you have 0 damage to get through her shield which she has every few seconds. not to mention she can easily get away and stun you.

Because otherwise you're a Talon and become useless the moment there's a single tank in the game as you get stunned mid-Q and blown up.

I then went and looked at Talon from 7 years ago's spotlight and noticed how much slower damage was in the game back then. The Talon would virtually land W, Q, his E and it would still not take off more than half a champ's HP, while also not losing over half his HP in one trade.

Damage creep in this game has become so ridiculous.

PB4UAMEFeb 18, 20195 votes

Ah, the good olds days when you had to repeatedly trade, and slowly grind down opponents, instead of 100-0 instagibbing them with your lv. 2 all in and a keystone proc.

TheSingularityFeb 19, 20194 votes

Fun fact for y'all in regards to tank stat crushing

Their items have been nerfed to the ground

Lost 200 when item 3194 replaced item 3102 . Gap shrunk to 150. item 3742 lost 175 hp item 1401 item 1413 10% bonus health item 3190 400 HP item 3143 100 HP item 3800 250 HP item 3065 50 HP item 3068 75 HP item 3083 200 HP

Tanks have lost a horrifying 1400 HP. So that's why I can't get 6k hp anymore...

Like, a huge help would be increasing final item costs, but then giving better stats. OG warmogs 1000 HP, 500 randuins/visage/deadmans/sunfire, 600 HP glory

Edit: MR and armour bonus round! armour=20 item 3075 + 30 item 3143 + 5 item 3025 +20 item 3026 +20 removal of ancient golem = 95 armor lost MR=15 item 3102 + 15 item 3065 + 45 =75 magic resist lost

HammermancerFeb 18, 20193 votes

try playing a champion class that involves foresight, skill, and isn't innately broken at its core...

Draw My FursonaFeb 18, 20194 votes

You're right! I'll play Assassins and Marksmen then!

...wait a second...

Sir SaltarinFeb 19, 20192 votes

Every single assasin and adc takes more skill to play than Malphite, and it's not even close.

WAZZZUP500Feb 19, 20195 votes

Here's what I'll say: it's different types of skill. Tank players need to know the threats, routes the enemy can take, and be able to predict what both teams will do so that they can be a big wall. Adcs need to know where to be and who to target so that they can be behind the big wall and still hit the enemy. Assassins need to know the lowest risk (and highest priority) target so that they can get in and out without hindering their team by dying.

Sir SaltarinFeb 19, 20191 votes

Of course every class has their things to learn, but I wasn't talking about tanks as a class downrating them all, I was talking exactly about Malphite who has a binary and outdated playstyle since he's the one that OP is talking about.

WAZZZUP500Feb 19, 20192 votes

Yeah ur right about rock

PB4UAMEFeb 18, 20198 votes

Are you really trying to imply that the tank role, which is perhaps the most game knowledge heavy, and relies the most upon decision making, planning out whole teamfights, and ensuring everything is in position for engagements, doesn't require foresight or skill?

And what is innately or inherently broken about providing defense, utility, and enabling allies as a defensive support class?

In fact, I'll go a step further. The role that tanks fulfill is the cornerstone of organized combat for all of human history. Strategy and tactics for most of the history of combat (until the modern era of warfare) has predominately preoccupied itself with managing rows of armored, front-line units, and smashing them into each other, to literally force their mass against one another to win or lose ground with a rush of men and a push of pikes, spears, swords and shields. As this melee unfolds, and the line is held, everything else transpires, chariots and cavalry flank around to reach the rear, or to run down backline units, like javelin and bow armed skirmishers, or field artillery crews like scorpion operators or mangonel crews-- all of whom were previously busying themselves by showering the enemy ranks with projectiles. Shock infantry and cavalry will envelope the flanks, and the rest devolves into semi-organized chaos.

Currently, League has given everyone modern weapons, so any form of frontline or 'tank' gets evaporated from range and eviscerated before they can hold or stabilize anything. Without a line of battle to fight around and such destructive weaponry, everything else is a confused and explosive skirmish that may as well take place on a minefield, as any wrong step will end in your instant annihilation with little to nothing you can do about it.

SeenanFeb 19, 20192 votes

Why would you max W on Malphite? I get that you wanted armor, but Q max is better in most situations...esp considering Conqueror exists. Can't outrun her with level 1 Q. Looks like Twitch was mostly the issue than Riven, but not to dismiss that tank items need a buff. Her build sucked ass too.

Fear the KaynFeb 18, 20191 votes

I agree tanks and tank items need to be rebalanced. Tanks should take very little damage, but should be able to get out DPS’d by a support. Sorry, you can have one or the other. Damage or tankiness. Tanks like Ornn put out so much damage they shouldn’t even be considered tanks.

PB4UAMEFeb 18, 201915 votes

You're completely ignoring that aside from the support role's item which require an ally nearby to use, every form of gold comes from doing damage to and killing things. Every role needs a baseline amount of damage to farm, damage towers, take objectives, kill jungle and epic monsters. Additionally, how the fuck are you going to solo lane without any damage? You'd just lose every trade, get forced under tower, denied CS (that you already don't even have the damage to get in the first place) poked out of lane, denied any form of gold and exp until you're so starved they can dive you under tower repeatedly, which you also won't be able to punish, as again you want them to have no damage. . .

I'm sure glad assasssin mains aren't in charge of balancing shit; probably coun't even balance a gyroscope.

Fear the KaynFeb 18, 20194 votes

{quoted}

You're completely ignoring that aside from the support role's item which require an ally nearby to use, every form of gold comes from doing damage to and killing things. Every role needs a baseline amount of damage to farm, damage towers, take objectives, kill jungle and epic monsters. Additionally, how the fuck are you going to solo lane without any damage? You'd just lose every trade, get forced under tower, denied CS (that you already don't even have the damage to get in the first place) poked out of lane, denied any form of gold and exp until you're so starved they can dive you under tower repeatedly, which you also won't be able to punish, as again you want them to have no damage. . .

I'm sure glad assasssin mains aren't in charge of balancing shit; probably coun't even balance a gyroscope.

The problem is right now a tank building no damage items can 1v1 a lot of champions who are building damage. Tanks should absorb damage, not deal it.

Yets4240Feb 18, 201913 votes

Eh. . . you're thinking about this far too simplistically, as what you said doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Right, so take two theoretical champions, A and B. We'll ignore resistances, attack speed and abilities for right now, and just look at it in terms of health and damage, with them attacking each other at the same speed.

Say A is the tank, let's give them 2,000 hp at 18, and 100 damage. B is a carry, we'll give them 1,000 hp at 18, but 200 damage.

If A and B both attack each other at the same time, they will kill each other in 10 attacks, and both will die at the same time-- perfectly balanced.

But, let's add (overly simplified) items, what if A gets a defensive item, and now has 2,500 hp? Ceteris paribus, A will win every time, as after 10 attacks, B is dead, but A still has 500 hp. By buying defense, they were able to win the 1 vs 1 that would otherwise be a tie.

The same is true in League. Defensive purchases add just as much potential to a 1 vs 1 as offense does theoretically.~ If you increase your defense by 1%, that will counteract them increasing their offense by 1% exactly. So if a tank gets ahead, and can increase their defense by a higher percentage than the carry or assassin player increased their offense (while also not increasing their own survivability AT ALL something which used to be report worth and considered trolling in just about every season before S6) then why wouldn't everyone expect the tank to win that 1 vs 1?

If it takes a minute for you to kill me, but 30 seconds for me to kill you, who do you think will win that fight? Why is that a surprise, and why are you framing this as some evil, abhorrent abortion of game design?

"How dare those dumb, skillless tank players kill me, a glorious and amazingly talented rightclickr, or edgy, amazing azzazzin weabo who is so inherently superior to these shitlords, whilst they didn't even deign to purchase a single offensive item as a pure defensive class who gets less from offensive items than literally anyone else! The blasphemy! The sheer nerve!" sneers away into the distance

~or at least, if they were perfectly balanced against each other it would. As it is the scaling is vastly different, so ceteris paribus offense is always strictly better than defense; additionally, there is far more armor/mr pen than AS/AD reductions, no crit chance reduction, %hp damage, true damage, sustain based off of damage [ item 3812 item 3146 item 3508 item 3109 item 2140 item 2060 Ravenous Hunter, oh and any form of lifesteal/spellvamp] so, long story short, defense is actual, literal shit compared to offense and almost never worth building despite the fact that it should be equally valuable in part because ADC and Assassin mains have bitched and moaned up a storm to riot each and any time, well, 'a tank beat me without any offensive items OMFGWTFBBQ RITO pls NERF NAOW!@!!@!11!!!' or, well, in this specific case:

"The problem is right now a tank building no damage items can 1v1 a lot of champions who are building damage."

Ninjas FlossingFeb 19, 20193 votes

simple , an item where you deal 20% less damage to champions but cant take true damage and then another item that's deal 20% less damage to champions but take 20% less damage from all non-tower sources,

before anyone complains about the true damage item, non flat-true damage needs to be removed anyways no-one can convince me otherwise

QmegaSquadVeigarFeb 19, 20192 votes

I think true damage in the game is fine (except conqueror lol it's bs). Small chunks of true damage like red buff, smite, Olaf's E (and executes but they aren't really an issue) are fine, a keystone that makes EVERY bruiser deal true damage 20% of their damage as true damage isn't.

Ninjas FlossingFeb 19, 20193 votes

hence my "non flat-true damage needs to be removed" %health true damage is unacceptable, all %health should be either physical or magic damage. you can make an argument for vayne since shes squishy but even then id rather that it be a larger % but either physical or magic damage. but fiora and garen and gangplank.... none of these really needed true damage, tho gp is more annoying with his "i dont give a fuck about armor" barrels than true damage. im sick of them making durability irrelevant. ive had games with 400+ armor and dies in 2 seconds to entirely physical damage. bruisers and fighters should not be able to ignore tanks by killing them at the same speed they kill squishies. the entire point of building durability was to make that not happen....

hrooza dota Feb 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I'm sure glad assasssin mains aren't in charge of balancing shit; probably coun't even balance a gyroscope.

im more glad noone here is in charge of balance, or else we will see everything they hate gutted and everything they love overbuffed

LordGeovanniFeb 20, 20193 votes

you mean like the current riot balance team already does

hrooza dota Feb 21, 20191 votes

nah balance team do decent, most gutted champions are hard to play or have insane team work abilitys (or they plan to buff them anyway).

compared to what ppl want this balance team is way more reasonable

LordGeovanniFeb 21, 20193 votes

forgetting my self although i may not agree with everything they may say or propose i have seen at least 8 people on boards with big plans on how to balance classes that it think blow anything riot currently does or has done since season 3 the first half out of the water

hrooza dota Feb 21, 20191 votes

unless you talk about gameplay+ i find ppl to be biased with few decent suggestions imo

LordGeovanniFeb 22, 20191 votes

people see bias where they want to see it or else feminizim for example wouldnt be so selective while claiming to be for everyone.

hrooza dota Feb 23, 20191 votes

i mean idk what feminizim have to do with this but your first point can apple to you as will tbh.