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Can someone explain to me why I'd EVER want Sunfire over Deadmans?

ModCaptainMårvelous··6 votes·2,418 views

item 3742

  • 2750 total cost. (Giants Belt + Chainmail Build Path)
  • 600 HP, 50 Armor.
  • Passive that grants movement speed, bonus damage on next auto and increased damage/slow if you attack with max stacks.

item 3068

  • 2600 total cost (Bami's Cinder + Chainmail Build Path)
  • 450 HP, 45 Armor
  • Passive burn effect that slightly scales with level (25 + 1x Level, Maximum of 43 damage) at 400 range.

For 150 gold, you're getting an extra 150 HP, an extra 5 armor and a massively more beneficial active that rolls damage, slow and movement speed all into one. Yes, Sunfire was in a bad spot before but Deadman's is the final nail in the coffin. Even champions who prefer sunfire for it's AoE damage could easily just get something like titanic hydra if they want splitpush power.

Sunfire either needs a buff or to just be removed. Maybe change the buildpath. As it is now, this item is hilariously outclassed by Deadman's.

36 Comments

Faded Lich12 votes

http://cdn.meme.li/i/460x/m7sgd.jpg

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That's a lot of armor and HP for flat passives.

Faded Lich4 votes

Yeah but sometimes you want a lot of armor and hp. That and the passives are actually really good together and perfect for the "Never escape" mentality of today's tanks/juggernoughts. It's rather effective. Down right cruel if you're ahead.

therealdragon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faded Lich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMlVAnr5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-25T15:32:48.114+0000)

http://cdn.meme.li/i/460x/m7sgd.jpg

true. I sometimes get both on darius and it works.

TehNACHO5 votes

Sustained damage.

Dead Man's great for initiating upon people, Sunfire's great for sitting on them.

Not to mention if you're a top lane player that likes to proxy farm when they're significantly far ahead, Sunfire is god tier.

Meep Man5 votes

Sunfire Cape is much better for team fights, sustained damage, and wave clear. After just 2-3 seconds, Sunfire has dealt more damage in an area of effect.

cFlame1 votes

This is always true as long as you can't use auto attacks with item 3748.

3tyson3 votes

Of amumu didnt build cinderhulk id probertly pref sunfire over deathmans because it seems to sync better with his kit same seems to go for sej

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Sunfire is great for providing waveclear to low waveclear champions. I'd rather have sunfire on shen than deadman's everytime. Dead man's is great item, but aoe dps is different from a single target slow once per fight. Dead man's is a little too strong since they nerfed the other armor items and it gives 600 health, but it definitely has a different niche than sunfire.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

This is true, but if you want AoE waveclear on a character there is also Titanic Hydra. True, it is 3300 and offers about 50 less HP but it also scales with your HP and gives you a passive and active component, in addition to a little AD and HP Regen.

Sunfire's scaling is a joke. Only doing 43 damage at max level makes this item really suffer against anything but minions until the really late game.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Titanic does give much better waveclear, but it really requires some attack speed or ad ratios to be good. On a champion like malphite who gets magic pen anyway, I prefer sunfire. It may still be a little weak, and dead man's is a bit strong, but IMO sunfire is better on some champions.

Partholonian1 votes

Titanic Hydra does offer 50 less HP than Sunfire -- not that much. It also offers 45 less armor than Sunfire, which is a much bigger deal.

Sunfire gives you waveclear while still being a defensive item. That's something that neither of the alternatives do.

Professor Ward2 votes

You wouldnt, deadmans has a 75%slow, omega hp boost, And in League of Mobility, A Passive that gives you scaling movespeed up to more than an ENTIRE SET OF BOOTS

Also Sunfire damage is reduced by mr making it one of the lowest sources of damage in the entire game.

Sunfire is only viable to help clear mons

Inphernal2 votes

If champions got Titanic instead of sunfire then they wouldnt get any armor. Leona would want sunfire>deadmans because she had no problem engaging and can sit on top of people forever, and if she went hydra then she would be wasting gold on un-needed AD. Not every champ wants to build a tiamat either.

I would always choose sunfire>deadmans on champs like alistar, galio, braum, etc

AtheosisX2 votes

They have completely different niches...

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

And yet an identical build path that somehow translates to Deadman's getting the long end of the stick.

AtheosisX2 votes

{quoted}

And yet an identical build path that somehow translates to Deadman's getting the long end of the stick.

Dead Man's Plate is for champs that have trouble sticking or otherwise benefit from movement speed. Sunfire Cape is for champs that have no trouble sticking while needing more damage. Deadman's Plate may be over-tuned right now, but regardless it's not really in direct competition with Sunfire Cape.

cFlame1 votes

I see a lot of comments that item 3068 would be the better option for Shen, but I find this partially untrue. As Shen, your supposed to be helping your team as much as possible to get kills, you need to be able to dash in and start soaking damage. item 3068 gives less total sustain, no bonus movement speed or on-hit slow mechanic, but will give more total damage as to item 3742. And also, I prefer item 3748 over item 3068, even if it means less sustain I can hit back line carries harder and clear waves faster thanks to its strong active. I think item 3068 needs an active, perhaps we could take item 3001's aura effect as that? I don't know.

Enosetc1 votes

{quoted}

I see a lot of comments that item 3068 would be the better option for Shen, but I find this partially untrue. As Shen, your supposed to be helping your team as much as possible to get kills, you need to be able to dash in and start soaking damage. item 3068 gives less total sustain, no bonus movement speed or on-hit slow mechanic, but will give more total damage as to item 3742. And also, I prefer item 3748 over item 3068, even if it means less sustain I can hit back line carries harder and clear waves faster thanks to its strong active. I think item 3068 needs an active, perhaps we could take item 3001's aura effect as that? I don't know.

you get sunfire cape over deadman's on shen because you need to be able to quickly push waves to create opportunities to ult safely

titanic hydra is nice on him, but it takes too long to get its desirable effect. bami's cinder only costs 1000g and will help you push out a wave fast enough to be able to ult someone safely most of the time

cFlame1 votes

Ahh... I see, so if the game goes well and you can go for a pricier item, you COULD pick item 3748, but if you need relevant push earlier on, one would take item 3068.

Enosetc1 votes

{quoted}

Ahh... I see, so if the game goes well and you can go for a pricier item, you COULD pick item 3748, but if you need relevant push earlier on, one would take item 3068.

yeah, pretty much

i've been experimenting with titanic hydra on jungle shen, but i wouldn't take second in lane because it delays the randuin's/visage/banshee's i'd usually build depending on their enemy team. it's a great item on him, but i can't find room to build it outside of a situational 6th item

ShadyWolfe1 votes

{quoted}

I see a lot of comments that item 3068 would be the better option for Shen, but I find this partially untrue. As Shen, your supposed to be helping your team as much as possible to get kills, you need to be able to dash in and start soaking damage. item 3068 gives less total sustain, no bonus movement speed or on-hit slow mechanic, but will give more total damage as to item 3742. And also, I prefer item 3748 over item 3068, even if it means less sustain I can hit back line carries harder and clear waves faster thanks to its strong active. I think item 3068 needs an active, perhaps we could take item 3001's aura effect as that? I don't know.

item 3748 is a bad item get sunfire cape it is much better for shen.

IcyPepper2 votes

Sunfire is good for champions with lockdown and are intended to stay in the fight.

Deadman has better stats, but its passive is worthless after the first blow during a teamfight because of the amount of cc being thrown. If you're more about lockdown and soaking damage while getting into people's personal space, and lack your own damage beyond aoe, sunfire is the way to go. Amumu is a primary example, except he's more about jungling so he gets cinderhulk. Malphite top would probably go sunfire over deadman (or maybe both?).

Also sunfire is more useful for tanks splitpushing, like Shen.

CrossXxodia1 votes

The main problem with Sunfire is that you're playing almost 1000 Gold for pretty much just the passive. Yeah, technically you get 150 more health and 5 armor, but that really does not justify such an absurd combine cost.

It should either give more stats or cost less to combine into.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Do you want single target burst or sustained aoe damage?

Narasimha1 votes

Sunfire's is still better for prolonged fights. Deadman's has a strong first hit, but after that, you're essentially doing 1 or 2 extra damage per hit. Compared to, at minimum, the bonus 25 damage from Sunfire. Deadman's super hit does 100 damage. At max rank, Sunfire does 43 damage per second. Which means if the fight goes on for more than 3 seconds, Sunfire has outdamaged Deadman's, and done its intended effect.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

When you want waveclear and sustained damage.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

if your name is shen u get sunfire otherwise the other new item

shadecrapper1 votes

Sunfire cape if for pushing lanes. The other for chasing down people and placing a slow on them. Depends on what you want :)

kile1471 votes

The only issue I have is that dead man's plate has better stats. I feel like one of them should have slightly better health and the other have better armor, or just give them the same stats.

Salron1 votes

Because Shen exists Though aside from him, no one would ever buy it

MadDoughnutz1 votes

Malphite

Only Play Darius1 votes

For AOE damage.

windwolf7771 votes

You're a pyromaniac or playing Brand, fire Warwick or other fire-y champs and getting it for thematic reasons?

Ventira1 votes

You'd want it so you can slowly roast your opponents until medium rare or until a nice golden brown.. Then feed them to whoever your carry happens to be at the time.

ShadyWolfe1 votes

Titanic Hydra is a bad item and champs with little to no waveclear like Shen need sunfire cape. Sunfire Cape is not weak but Deadman's Plate does seem a tad bit overtuned.

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