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Let's Talk Complexity and Design

ModCaptainMårvelous··4 votes·1,121 views

Afternoon lads and lasses,

I got spurred to talk about this because I saw a pretty great video. I'd recommend you watch it, as it does bring up some pretty good points (such as the nature of change). Plus Gameplay should love it because it says that the game isn't as fun anymore and I know how much you all love finding things where people affirm your ideas! (Disclaimer: This is a joke please don't bombard my inbox with angry ranting about how I'm poking fun at Gameplay).

But IMO, the biggest flaw in the video and why I made this thread was about design. It's the fourth point in the video and mostly goes over how champions in the game have gotten more complex and how this is a bad thing. I want to talk about this because it's a super common complaint with Riot that they don't make simple champions anymore. While I disagree with this, I want to go in-depth and explain my thoughts on the matter.

One Final Note: DESIGN IS SUBJECTIVE. You can disagree with me and I can disagree with you. That's fine! There is no one "right" way to balance or design a game

#1.) The Nature of Complexity and an Evolving Game.

If League had never had deeper gameplay or strategy, people would begin to leave faster than they ever do now. Bear in mind, this is not a unique concept to League. Let's take DOTA2 for example. This is one of the earliest heroes, Sven. Sven has a very simple kit to grasp: Q stuns in an area. W gives him AoE attacks. E lets him boost speed/armor and his ult gives him more damage. It's all very simple. Now let's take a look at one of the later heroes, Earth Spirit.

By contrast, Earth Spirit is Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" to Sven's "Green Eggs and Ham". His moves all have special conditions. He has a separate button for summoning remenants. He has unique effects for allies, enemies, etc. This hero also sported one of the lowest win rates in the game and still was nerfed. But you know what? Earth Spirit should exist.

As games grow older, the skill floor of your average player rises. Things that used to be complex (Lee Sin and Insec) are now common and should be mastered by most players. Players, especially the good ones, deserve to have more complex things to play. In addition, these more complex characters serve roles that aren't currently in the game to a capacity. No comparison to Earth Spirit truly exists in DOTA2 in much the same way League has no champion akin to Azir.

Now that the nature of complexity and the need for these characters exists, we can go onto the harder part: Making them work.

#2.) Conditionals, Passives and the Nature of Novella Descriptions.

One of the things you'll note in the DOTA2 abilities is that while the abilities might seem smaller in description than Leagues, they also have quite a few lines of important notes. What's immune to spells. What can break BKB. What is the max of a spell you can place, etc. These are necessary for these characters to work, as to make a more complex character work, you often need more conditionals.

Let's take the newest champion, Pyke, for example. One of the obvious problems with an assassin support is that they could skill into a very tanky character while still bringing assassin-scale DPS to the fight. Ekko originally had this problem as well, not to mention many common support items (Knights Vow, Redemption, etc.) Have HP and defensive stats. To fix this issue, Riot made Pyke's bonus HP scale into AD instead. This allows him to build some supportive items without holding onto raw damage while also being tanky. A similar situation with Azir exists, as he has bonus AS because very few AP/AS items exist that work with him.

The more complex and "new" you make a character, the more passives and conditionals you need to help them function. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Certain characters wouldn't work at all with these special abilities! In the video, for example, the Narrator directly references Kled's large passive. If Skaarl didn't work this way, Kled would lose a huge portion of what it means to be Kled and the unique nature of having a mounted character. Without his passive, Kled would be a bit too similar to Sejuani. Can these passives fail? Sure. Any skill can fail. But for every flop, you have a character like Jhin.

#3.) The Death of "Easy" Characters

Now moving onto the biggest criticism is that League doesn't make new/simple characters anymore and that everything these days is just a super complex character that you can never hope to grasp. To this I disagree but it's more about the misunderstanding between skill floor and skill ceiling. For a refresher and those who don't know, "Skill Floor" is considered the minimum amount of skill required to make a champion work. Nunu has a pretty low skill floor while Shaco can have a pretty high skill floor. Skill ceiling is the amount of skill required to play a champion at the ultimate, "perfect" level. A 4'2" person could touch the skill ceiling for Volibear. Azir's skill ceiling might require a few ladders to touch.

While there are certainly champions who have tough-to-grasp skill ceilings, not all new champion releases or reworks fall into this category. Let's take Rakan, for example. A great Rakan is a sight to behold, using allies as springboards and comboing his ult with numerous skills. He'll look like a pigeon on speed, flapping around at the speed of light. That said, Rakan isn't exactly a hard-to-grasp character. His kit is pretty simplistic and doesn't have all that many tough mechanics to get a handle on. A bronze player who is new shouldn't struggle with Rakan as a basic introduction.

What I think most people are upset about is that the skillcap for League has risen and that they have to "git gud" if they want to get the most out of their champion. To that, I can't really help or counterpoint. I've certain had characters that sting to put down because I'm not good enough to play them (Hi Viktor) and yeah, it does suck when this champ you love is beyond you. That said, it isn't innately Riot's fault that this character is too hard to play. Whether it's League, DOTA or even something more complex like Starcraft, the fault does not lie with the developer. The fault lies with us...and while it sucks, we can't blame them for making a tough character/faction/etc.

#4.) Conclusion and Criticism for Riot.

It is in any game's nature to release more complex characters as time goes on and it does take more varied circumstances to make them work. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Not at all. A good concept that requires two passives and a unique item to make work is still a good concept. What Riot should be more careful about is how they present these skills. Let's take a look at Kled:

https://puu.sh/AxlGH/67b6af908f.png

On the wiki and in-game, this can be a mouthful. However, there are ways that we can reduce the burden for players. I know people want more stats in their abilities but for the casual player, sometimes all you really need is a quick look. So let's take Kled's passive and make it a bit less painful for a player who just picked up Kled:

Mounted: Kled's base health does not increases but Skaarl acts a s a shield for Kled. When Skaarl reaches 0, Kled is dismounted.

Dismounted: Kled has lower MS and weaker autoattacks but gains MS when moving toward champions. Damage Kled deals can recharge Skaarl's courage.

Courage: Skaarl will return to Kled upon recall or hitting 100 Courage, returning with (%) of his life.

Is it still a mouthful? Sure as hell it is. That said, it still covers the important parts about Kled's passive (The passive shield, returning Skaarl, etc) while the smaller bits are left out. If anything, this will give players a better way to master their champion. A newbie to Kled will slowly begin to pick up the basics. Then they notice that remounting resets cooldowns. Then they'll notice they get a range change when they're normal kled, etc. These small features can be left out and allow for a lower skill floor while adding to the skill ceiling.

Do I expect these skills to go away? No. But Riot can still take steps to improving them. On the community side, people need to understand that these passives often exist for a reason and a champion having a wordy passive doesn't mean it's hard/too complex.

#TL;DR

Complciated passives/abilities exist for a reason. As games get older, the need for harder-to-play and more complex abilities are needed to keep new characters/releases fresh. That said, Riot can do more to simplify these abilities and even create mastery expression by allowing players to discover small facets of a champion on their own rather than being handed a 3 paragraph skill that explains EVERYTHING.

Feel free to comment. Unless it gets popular. Then I struggle to respond to everyone and my feelings get hurt by everyone telling me I'm a dummy for disagreeing with them. (/s)

10 Comments

D357R0Y3R2 votes

The difference is that no matter if Sven is easy or not, he still fullfies missions that no one does in Dota He deals AOE damage He gives to his entire team bonus armor+ms, making him a great counter to juggernaut who's ult deals AOE physical damage

In league, simple champions like Ashe lost their niche, when the fuck do you pick ashe? kite? kalista and lucian exist, engage? kalista and sivir exist hell, look at fucking twitch ult and xayah passive

this is what pisses me off in league

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

The difference is that no matter if Sven is easy or not, he still fullfies missions that no one does in Dota He deals AOE damage He gives to his entire team bonus armor+ms, making him a great counter to juggernaut who's ult deals AOE physical damage

You mean like how Emberspirit has build in AoE damage with his W? Or how Dazzle can give other units armor in a large radius?

In league, simple champions like Ashe lost their niche, when the fuck do you pick ashe? kite? kalista and lucian exist, engage? kalista and sivir exist

Kalista/Lucian/Sivir don't have long range engagement in the form of a cross-map arrow, nor do they have global vision in the form of hawkshot. Plus Ashe has built-in slows that serve a different purpose than kiting.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

You mean like how Emberspirit has build in AoE damage with his W? Or how Dazzle can give other units armor in a large radius?

How is dazzle related to this discussion? he isn't a carry Ember spirit has in built aoe physical damage with his W, yet is only played as a mage since 2 years now you know why? because icefrog realised that two carries were sharing the same niche, and made ember spirit being a mage by buffing his E and ult magic damage , and everyone is building him hood+octarine core

Kalista/Lucian/Sivir don't have long range engagement in the form of a cross-map arrow,

you don't need a longe range engagement as long as it's an engage kalista's engage is so damn good, and let's not talk about sivir

nor do they have global vision in the form of hawkshot.

which got hammered down multiple times to a point where it's fucking useless now? great

Plus Ashe has built-in slows that serve a different purpose than kiting.

in a meta were everyone is mobile, the only purpose is to kite

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

{quoted}

How is dazzle related to this discussion? he isn't a carry Ember spirit has in built aoe physical damage with his W, yet is only played as a mage since 2 years now you know why? because icefrog realised that two carries were sharing the same niche, and made ember spirit being a mage by buffing his E and ult magic damage , and everyone is building him hood+octarine core

And the point is that the niche still exists and can be filled by other characters. For instance, it seems you were unaware that Sven wasn't always played as a carry but instead transitioned into the role of a support? Especially when he could start giving AD to allies. AKA: The similar niche dazzle fills.

Can't focus too heavily on "You have to fill THIS exact role", especially in DOTA, because heroes in DOTA fill roles more based on what they can offer, not what they do. League has this as well but not nearly to the extent.

you don't need a longe range engagement as long as it's long rage kalista's engage is so damn good, and let's not talk about sivir

This is false. There are benefits to a long range, cross-map stun that Kalista or Sivir cannot fulfill. It all depends on what your team requires. Can Sivir/Kalista initiate too? Sure they can, just not in the way Ashe does. (Not to mention Kalista's ult is more often used to pull the support out of a problematic spot rather than as an initiation tool.

which got hammered down multiple time to a point where it's fucking useless now? great

"Global Vision" never stops being useful, especially if you know when to use it.

in a meta were everyone is mobile, the only purpose is to kite

Depends on the meta. There are points where Ashe has overshadowed Kalista or Sivir and points where they have been superior. Namely it falls on the waveclear aspect, as both Kalista and Sivir tend to waveclear better than Ashe can. In fact, if you look right now on OP.gg (Albeit it's outdated info as 8.11 stats haven't kicked in yet), Ashe is a counter to Kalista and Sivir counters Ashe, so there is purpose to picking all three. (Especially considering Kalista was the least hit by the crit changes of the three).

I think you're too hung up on picking only one and not looking too deeply into the differences between them, which can affect your game in huge ways.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

it seems you were unaware that Sven wasn't always played as a carry but instead transitioned into the role of a support?

that literally happened ONCE in 5 years and once it happened it was immediatly stopped by icefrog who forced sven into the carry role

just like roaming phantom assassin who got nerfed once to be a carry then they kept playing her roaming and icefrog answered by a hotfix nerf again to force her into the carry role

Especially when he could start giving AD to allies. AKA: The similar niche dazzle fills.

he can still do it, but it's a troll build that will never work also since when dazzle gives ad to allies? , having armor shred is not the same than having bonus ad, armor shred increases the damage from long range physical damage spells that do not scale with AD

Can't focus too heavily on "You have to fill THIS exact role", especially in DOTA, because heroes in DOTA fill roles more based on what they can offer, not what they do.

either that doesn't make sense, or i didn't understand

This is false. There are benefits to a long range, cross-map stun that Kalista or Sivir cannot fulfill.

of course it does but when the fuck will you decide in a game "i need crossmap stuns" and "i don't need crossmap stuns?"

sure it's different, but it's not something that appeals you to bend your strategy towards that pick

"Global Vision" never stops being useful, especially if you know when to use it.

it's so garbage that if you pick ashe just for that, you're doing everything wrong the travelling time got nerfed the radius and they even made the vision updating rather than giving full vision on the direction the hawk is heading

Depends on the meta. There are points where Ashe has overshadowed Kalista or Sivir and points where they have been superior.

back when she dealt more damage than them yes

Teridax682 votes

I feel the critical flaw in this entire thread OP is that it conflates complexity with depth. For sure, achieving depth of gameplay generally requires at least some measure of complexity, but complexity in and of itself isn't attractive. The fact that it has been held as such not only by Riot, but by some of League's players, is concerning. Moreover, the comparison to Dota 2 is itself fatally flawed, as Dota 2's heroes are taken from the original DotA. Sven was once Rogue Knight, Earth Spirit was once Stone Caller, and both had very similar kits then. The fact that Sven was adapted to the game before Earth Spirit thus has nothing to do with complexity creep in new design. If you want to comment on newer designs, you can take a look at Monkey King, Pangolier and Dark Willow, all of whom were created from scratch, rather than pulled from the original game: Monkey King is certainly a bit more complex, as he has a few more actives to play with, but Pangolier and DW's designs both have abilities that are fairly simple to read, and that fit with the rest of the cast. This is only picking Dota 2, as well, when games like Smite, HotS, etc. also continue to produce champions that are altogether not too complicated. Complexity creep is therefore neither an inevitability nor a necessity, as the OP would suggest.

Another part of the issue I take with the OP is that, while it mentions complexity as a necessary tool to allow for new gameplay, it tellingly does nothing to actually show what that complexity has enabled that more simple designs couldn't. In practice, it cannot, because even with modern designs we have plenty of examples of simpler champions with a ton of depth, including champions that are easy to pick up, e.g. Warwick. Older champions like Morgana, Lux and Singed all have unique playstyles that have aged better than most, while still remaining simple and relatively easy to pick up. Meanwhile, champions like Shyvana and Udyr, both older champions too, have paragraphs upon paragraphs of different descriptions, conditionals, and whatnot, yet have some of the most shallow playstyles in the game. Champions like Yasuo, Thresh and Kalista certainly give options to their players, but those options only exist because each of them is given out via their own dedicated extra passive: the amount of depth brought about by any one of those effects isn't actually all that great, but the kit still ends up having some depth, due to the sheer amount of stuff piled onto it.

As such, part of the problem isn't simply with complexity, but with the way complexity has been severely undervalued, and allotted inefficiently onto champion kits in order to produce far too little relative depth. This in turn produces champions that are impossible for mere mortals to do much with, but that are godlike in the hands of a few dedicated mains or pro players. It's all very nice to say that this is what players want (it really isn't though), but in practice this has had a tremendously detrimental effect on balance, as these champions have vast discrepancies in performance across eloes, or even just between pro and non-pro play.

If there is some common ground to be had, it's that some descriptions that look super complex on paper tend to be much simpler in practice. Jhin attacks slower but has a deadly fourth hit, and Kled has two health bars, yet League's stat system simply does not accommodate these naturally, which is why they each require a novella's worth of description. Personally, I think League could probably benefit from a short-form and long-form format for ability tooltips, which players could then toggle or otherwise switch between at will: the short-form should just deliver the gist of the ability, whereas the long form should go into full detail into what the ability's numbers are, what they scale with, what quirks the ability has, etc. That way, there'd be at least some more wiggle room for complicated effects, so long as there'd be a simpler way to present them. This could also perhaps make for a good test: if an ability gets its description condensed into short form, yet still cannot be reduced down to something that is quickly and easily understandable, it's likely the ability is simply too complex to be worth adding.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Snipping for sake of size.

{quoted}

Complexity/Depth and other games.

While it's true that it's easy to confuse complexity with depth, complexity eventually becomes a necessity. The point you make about newer DOTA heroes is also one that's interesting because DOTA's recent push into gameplay changes have been centered around more casual/friendlier gameplay. The addition of talent trees, fountains that heroes can heal from close to lane, etc. You can also look to the heroes before the three listed (Arc Warden and Ember/Earth Spirit) to see where they come and where they went. I will admit I made the mistake of going with the line of thought that "EVERY SINGLE NEW THING MUST BE COMPLEX" so I'll rescind that. However, as game time goes on, heroes get more complex no matter what the game. Cho'gall is much more complex than Kael'thalas, albeit that's due to a combined hero pool. Janus is much more complex than Artemis, as another example.

Again, I was wrong that everything gets more complex. However, as time goes on, complexity and depth tends to increase to capitalize on new experiences in these games.

Complexity as a necessity.

Well, for this, I heartily disagree. For one thing, you liken older designs as having greatly different complexity. Which...isn't really true. While Singed has stood the test of time, Morgana and Lux suffer from similar gameplay niches and similar playstyles. In a vacuum, they tend to play the same. While yes, they fulfill different functions, they act very much akin to a Ryu/Ken (to use a fighting game example) rather than a Ryu/Zangief. In addition, these characters don't really have much in the way of unique gameplay loops or options. It usually boils down to landing your skill, nothing more. Compared to Yasuo, Kalista, etc? These characters have extemely varied gameplay loops and options because of the variety of ways their skills function and the sheer volume of what they can do, which also means you end up having a ton of options at any given time. Complex but also depth to be had.

Discrepancy and Haphazard application.

Yeah that's fair. Unfortunately this is more of a side effect of Riot's insistence on balance for both Pro and PUB play. I feel like if Riot just leaned one way or the other, they'd be fine with how the game progresses. However, as I've Bitched about said a million times on the forums, the half-n-half balance leads to way more problems. Unfortunately it's not lucrative to business to stick with one so RIP me.

Shortening as a test to see if worth adding.

While I disagree with the secondary part that how simple it is determines if it's worth adding, I'm glad you agree with me on the shortening part as that's the biggest criticism/takeaway I can give to Riot. As a middle ground, why not have a toggle for short-hand or complex ability descriptions? I'm sure there are both those who want EVERY SINGLE FACET of the ability listed and others who just want "Jhin no shoot fast. Jhin shoot HARD but have 4 bullet"

Thanks for responding though. Appreciate it!

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

However, as game time goes on, heroes get more complex no matter what the game. Cho'gall is much more complex than Kael'thalas, albeit that's due to a combined hero pool. Janus is much more complex than Artemis, as another example.

But then Blaze and Fenix are both simpler than either Cho'Gall or Kael'Thas, despite being much newer releases, and Achilles and Chernobog, the two newest Smite gods, are also both much simpler than Janus. For sure, digging into newer playstyles will sometimes require some more complexity, and some characters will invariably be more complex than others, but League is still the only MOBA to feature such severe complexity creep in its champions. As shown above, its competitors do not have this same problem, as they continue to release much simpler kits still, while continuing to deliver on unique playstyles and fantasies, sometimes even better than League's own champions.

{quoted}

Well, for this, I heartily disagree. For one thing, you liken older designs as having greatly different complexity. Which...isn't really true. While Singed has stood the test of time, Morgana and Lux suffer from similar gameplay niches and similar playstyles. In a vacuum, they tend to play the same. While yes, they fulfill different functions, they act very much akin to a Ryu/Ken (to use a fighting game example) rather than a Ryu/Zangief.

I'm sorry, have you actually played Morgana or Lux? The two may have a skillshot root and a shield, but they otherwise have radically different playstyles. If you were to play Lux like you'd play Morgana, you'd get blown up, and if you were to play Morgana with the same artillery playstyle as Lux your abilities simply wouldn't land. The two champions are entirely distinct, and this is the first time I have ever witnessed someone claim the opposite.

{quoted}

In addition, these characters don't really have much in the way of unique gameplay loops or options. It usually boils down to landing your skill, nothing more. Compared to Yasuo, Kalista, etc? These characters have extemely varied gameplay loops and options because of the variety of ways their skills function and the sheer volume of what they can do, which also means you end up having a ton of options at any given time. Complex but also depth to be had.

This also is completely false, and can be easily remedied by simply looking at just some small amount of gameplay footage featuring Lux or Morg. Both can combo enemies caught in their root, but then Lux can scout, poke, zone, and execute over large distances, whereas Morgana can use her utility to block critical CC and counter-engage super well. Both champions have really flexible skillsets that allow them to do a whole bunch of different things, beyond just one core gameplay loop. Meanwhile, Yasuo and Kalista only have many options because they have equally many extra conditionals, and even then, their actual playstyle tends to boil down to something with a lot less depth. When one has so many options that any of them is valid at any given time, that in itself kills depth, because the lack of strong weaknesses means there's no real tradeoffs to the choices one makes, and this is a serious problem that has caused both of the latter champions to deliver far too little depth in exchange for their huge complexity, in addition to creating serious issues in both balancing and counterplay.

{quoted}

Unfortunately it's not lucrative to business to stick with one so RIP me.

This is perhaps a matter for another conversation, but I don't think Riot has to choose one or the other. At this point we have plenty of experience with mechanics that do better in some elos than others, and if Riot's recent changes to Taliyah are anything to go by, they're well aware of these too, and are making an effort in at least some cases to bridge the gaps. It is possible to make champions more consistent across elos, and this in fact should be a goal of any designer. Making champions with impossibly high skill floors may sound appealing to people who'd like to think they're that good, but is ultimately both pretentious and counter-productive, as it leads to said champions feeling like failures to the vast majority of players.

{quoted}

As a middle ground, why not have a toggle for short-hand or complex ability descriptions?

You mean literally what I suggested in my initial comment?

Taric the Gay1 votes

This is a lot to read in one sitting. Can we talk about gems instead?

http://www.auplod.com/u/pdolua802d6.png

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

We can talk about how Taric's gameplay got more complicated after rework but it still awesome, if you want. It's basically on topic.

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