Honestly: Marksmen need ammo systems. All of them.

chipndip1··6 votes·526 views

I'm legit tired of seeing people getting mad over marksmen. The role isn't that easy. It's super stressful with a target on your back, being super-dependent on hoping that your team realizes they need your ass to win the game, and on top of all of this, your support could just be one of those e-girl types that just want to get carried instead of actually be good.

However, marksmen LEGIT DON'T have good counter-play options for their power curves to feel fair to every other class. Once again, I'm cutting the bullshit and most of the sarcastic filler to explain my reasoning.

We've reached a point in League of Legends when it comes to counter-play. Good examples of a well designed kit is something like Cass, or Maokai, or Nami (yes, every time). They have a thing they do, things they don't do, time stamps they're strong in, and don't just encompass the entire spectrum of their class on their own.

Enter marksmen, who, as a class, embody none of this line of thought. How do you stop Kog from running your team over? By ending the game before he gets to a point where he's nigh unstoppable. What type of "counter-play" is that? Now, from before this was acceptable, but this is 2017, soon to be 2018. We're gonna need more feasible answers as to what to do with a marksman that's...well...doing shit. We have a possible solution, but I can understand the fear in pushing adcs into it since that's the type of change you can't just "revert" and pretend it didn't happen.

I'm seeing posts about crit...a lot. Crit isn't the problem on its own, though. It's more like crit...with no breathing room for that damage output. Think about it. Almost every other champion in every other class has some form of gate or down time from their dps. Even someone like Cass can't get her full damage out if you aren't poisoned. Vlad was changed to have more delays in damage output and healing (hell, even itemization changed for it). Most champs work in some form of spell rotation, or require spells to be up to really get the ball rolling (Azir, for example). Marksmen? Regardless of what damage they can do, they just DO NOT stop doing it until you die, they get cc'd, or one of both of you leave interaction range. Sure, they're the dps class, but no other form of damage output in this game just...goes like this. It literally doesn't end, nor does it have to, until you die. That's where a lot of the issue lies.

It's the same pattern all over again. Every time we do this, we have like 3 or 4 super op marksmen and the rest are B tier at best. Then Riot eventually addresses most or all of the top tier ones and then we have a new reigning OP until we whine for another mass marksman tuning. It's a cycle that repeats itself, and there isn't enough that defines one marksman's play from another one's to add variety to what lanes they go to (except Lucian and Corki apparently) or what they really do well or don't. When you need an early game marksman, you just pick any of them. When you need a late game marksman, you pick any of them. There's no feeling of real gain or loss from the picks, so long as you kinda "hit the ballpark".

So what would an ammo system do? Basically what it does for champs like Jhin and Graves. By designing unique types of autos and reloading mechanics, it'd better differentiate each marksman, but the important part is that it'd open up windows where marksmen are actually vulnerable, especially late game ones that just pepper your whole team down behind bodies and shields. That way, there's actually something to play around during fights, where assassins/divers can use bulkier team mates to use up the ammo of the enemy marksman before going in while they're reloading or low on ammo. It's way better than them reaming your tank and going for you next, right? It'd also even the playing field between the delayed burst of assassins and the newly limited sustain damage of marksmen if this were to happen.

I'm a guy that prefers the health of the whole game above all else. If I see a problem...like a real problem, I post on it. Adcs are a real problem, and they need a real solution so they aren't such an issue to the game's balance as a whole.

33 Comments

Variks the Loyal1 votes

It's a neat idea, but it runs the risk of being gimmicky. I can see a world where all Marksmen rely on an ammo system, and ADC items do things to improve that system; one item increases reload speed, one item adds more to your total ammo, one item slows your reload speed in exchange for greatly increased movement while reloading, etc.

There's also room for creativity within each Marksman. Kog'Maw could have to consume minions/monsters/something to get a large pool of ammo that he tries to dump all at once in a teamfight. Varus could have a cooldown system instead of a reload system, where the magic in his Darkin quiver regenerates at a steady rate instead of reloading all at once. Some could avoid the ammo system entirely, instead having other gating mechanics like short range; Sivir could have no reload, but instead has her short range. So on, so forth.

But it can get gimmicky real quick, and some characters would need bizarre reasons to reload. Kindred is a specter of death and the bow is more of a symbolic thing than an actual weapon, where does an ammo system go there? Or Draven, who, while he can catch his axes, pulls more out of thin air for his normal AAs?

Neat idea, really hard to implement.

chipndip12 votes

It's less about thematic and more about functionality/game balance. You need marksmen to deal with tanks. We're supposed to need assassins and divers to have a solid way to reach marksmen, but they get peppered into oblivion before they can finish up basic rotations, or marksmen just life steal off of them right after or during.

It could be a tad clumsy in places, but I think it'd be better in the long run.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Disagree. Counterplay isn't everything nor should be.

Also Maokai doesn't have counterplay (outside of flash). Maokai has to miss his Q; you don't dodge it. His W is targeted. His E is a zoning tool. His R, if you run away, means you wasted time running away. His passive really needs a nerf.

chipndip12 votes

You can avoid or just straight up outrun Maokai's E.

His R can also be outran.

We also have Mortal Reminder that runs his passive into the ground for you.

You don't need counter-play in every aspect of your kit, but to be devoid of it is just as problematic as having too much.

Just cause Ornn's kit was a bad idea doesn't mean current adcs are justified as they are now. If we have no way to play around marksmen, the only means of beating them is to make the game unfun for them by blowing them up before they get to play the game themselves. Is THAT your idea of "a good idea"?

With this said, hyper-carry marksmen have so much power to them that the least they can be expected to offer their opponent in return is the promise of SOME opening to get a clear shot and doing something back to them. Otherwise, what WAS the point of the assassin and tank reworks? Why ease up on front-loaded damage if we aren't adjusting adcs and their steadily increasing fixed damage?

AirKingNeo1 votes

His E still zones and he can Q you into it.

His R being outran means he performed the job of zoning you away for that long.

Mortal Reminder is good, but doesn't justify it being broken.

Assassin rework gave a delay; they still mostly assassinate. Tank rework upped CC in placement of small damage, despite tank damage just needing an overall nerf; a big fuck you to bruisers.

Marksmen are supposed to be reliable. That's perfectly fine. I'd rather just see damage nerfs than be balanced around counterplay when still broken when said counterplay doesn't matter.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

His E still zones and he can Q you into it.

Maokai has to land W just to get into Q range. If he's Q'ing you into E, you already got caught by W. E by itself, however, has plenty of counter-play. Same for his ult, which is best used as follow-up engage or as a flanking option, rather than a strong initial engage or peeling tool (due to its scaling root duration). He also lacks full-on stuns, so people can still cast spells and autos unless he's Q'd them, and that only lasts for a tiny while.

The thing about counter-play is that it doesn't mean you get to blatantly invalidate the enemy's move. It means you have viable responses for their action(s). The counter-play to certain elements to Mao's kit is obvious. You can't just whine for no reason.

Assassin rework gave a delay; they still mostly assassinate. Tank rework upped CC in placement of small damage, despite tank damage just needing an overall nerf; a big fuck you to bruisers.

Tank rework wasn't even about damage (well, it was a little, but not a lot). The tank rework was about reducing how front-loaded the tanks in question were. To this end, they were more successful than not (Zac is the REAL failure rework, here, cause he's still really damn front-loaded). Sej lost her immediate, aoe cc in exchange for single-target efficiency and prolonged usefulness in fights, while Mao lost his ridiculously tanky ult for a potentially powerful team fight tool (you can't play around numbers, remember. You CAN play around a skill shot, even if it's big, so long as it's not insanely fast).

Assassins assassinate, but by later stages in the game the gaps in their offensive patterns just allows marksmen to kill them in the middle of their rotations as long as they're with their team. It may have been unfair before, but the point of assassins bursting the way they did in the past was so that this wouldn't happen. Now that assassins, the primary anti-carry class in the game, has delays in their burst rotation, there needs to be a similar approach taken against marksmen to even the playing field again.

Marksmen are supposed to be reliable. That's perfectly fine. I'd rather just see damage nerfs than be balanced around counterplay when still broken when said counterplay doesn't matter.

Nothing about adding breathing room between sprees of bullets makes marksmen LESS reliable. You aren't even using the term reliable correctly.

Lastly, reducing the damage of marksmen outright as a class either calls for tanks to be less tanky in general as well, and thus why use them...or tanks just become top tier because no one can kill them well.

AirKingNeo1 votes

You know Maokai's W is targeted, right?

You don't dodge Maokai's Q, he misses it. It's that kind of ability where the burden of skill is on the user to aim properly.

Tank rework made tanks have too much CC and that's about it.

chipndip12 votes

How am I gonna type all this out and your response is "W is targeted"?

My response before this already covered that. Same for his Q. You literally did not add to the conversation with this reply.

Also...this thread isn't about Maokai regardless of how mad you are about Maokai's W. It's about marksmen, a little bit about assassins, and providing a more fair window to actually deal with marksmen outside of "make them not play the game". Scaling power is fine, but scaling power to the point of nearly being unstoppable is not fine. That makes you generally good, and the point of strategic games is that certain pieces will be weaker or stronger in certain areas than others. As it is now, because marksmen scale into doing high damage and never stop outputting damage, they eventually become "the absolute best damage dealers". If people are serious about class diversity in the game, something about that needs to change so they aren't the undisputed best damage class after they land some items, and having some form of downtime in their damage output like every other ranged class in the game is an actual start to reaching that point.

AirKingNeo1 votes

How am I gonna type all this out and your response is "W is targeted"?

I chucked a bit there.

As I think I said, rather than ammo, just nerf ADC items and support peel.

chipndip13 votes

Then we go in a vicious cycle like we've been doing.

  • You can't really call for a role-wide nerf on the primary function of the role. How are you just gonna nerf "support peel"?

  • If you nerf adc items, either we go back to lethality adcs AGAIN or we go back to "ADCIN20XX" AGAIN and then we class-wide buff them AGAIN.

It isn't about temporary relief. It's about a long-term solution that truly finds a middle-ground to the problem.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Last time ADCs sucked because their items were too expensive and tanks were broken. Now we buffed them up equal to tanks. I personally think, instead of keeping ADCs late game's insane but feel terrible to reach, we just nerf the late game. (and nerf tanks obviously)

Sure I can! Nerf Ardent, Redemption, Locket, and KV. Especially Locket and Redemption. Enchanters shouldn't be allowed to get both, and both are too strong. Tanks shouldn't be able to abuse Locket either. Tanky supports would technically have the weaker active because tanks get to ALSO be tanks on top of their CC peel.

I think your idea just creates more problems and feels terrible to play.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Last time ADCs sucked because their items were too expensive and tanks were broken. Now we buffed them up equal to tanks. I personally think, instead of keeping ADCs late game's insane but feel terrible to reach, we just nerf the late game. (and nerf tanks obviously)

It's possible to do this, but this doesn't solve the issue of assassins and divers struggling to be useful after a time stamp. Sure, your late game damage isn't as big by a bit, but you're still gonna be leeching off of them under a ton of peel. I don't think there's a "just right" spot for that type of late-game power output. It definitely doesn't solve the issue of the class revolving around 3-4 champs at a time.

Sure I can! Nerf Ardent, Redemption, Locket, and KV. Especially Locket and Redemption. Enchanters shouldn't be allowed to get both, and both are too strong. Tanks shouldn't be able to abuse Locket either. Tanky supports would technically have the weaker active because tanks get to ALSO be tanks on top of their CC peel.

Locket/Redemption as a combo hasn't been a major issue for months now, now that Riot has nerfed their synergy together.

You also don't realize how dumb it is to suggest a complete nerf to most of the itemization for one role. You also have no idea how to keep tanks from using tank support items to begin with, given that tank supports itemize basically the same way as actual tanks.

I think your idea just creates more problems and feels terrible to play.

It'd be rough to get used to, but the overall result would make something that's easier to balance around.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Locket doesn't scale with HP anymore and is melee only; Rakan and Thresh are considered melee now.

Solves so many issues.

You also don't realize how dumb it is to suggest a complete nerf to most of the itemization for one role.

Just undoing what Riot did purposefully: making supports too strong.

Less ADC damage gives bruisers and assassins a better time stop to where they aren't completely outscaled.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Locket doesn't scale with HP anymore and is melee only; Rakan and Thresh are considered melee now.

Solves so many issues.

Thresh has too much range to EVER be considered melee.

Also you can't just make everything "melee only" all over the joint.

Just undoing what Riot did purposefully: making supports too strong.

If anything, the role was hardly noticeable before now. You SHOULD actually be wary of the enemy support as a player in the game. Supports shouldn't be afterthoughts like they were up until now.

Less ADC damage gives bruisers and assassins a better time stop to where they aren't completely outscaled.

And then tanks run EVERYONE over and what do you do then? You forget that adcs have the damage they have because tanks are as tanky as they are.

AirKingNeo1 votes

If Thresh gains too great of advantages from being melee, then you could just nerf him. Locket being an issue on enchanters is too great.

Supports are arguably the most important and strongest role right now. Their items are so broken that tanks are beginning to use them.

You forget that adcs have the damage they have because tanks are as tanky as they are.

I thought nerfing tanks as equally, as they are part of fucking bruisers, was implied.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

If Thresh gains too great of advantages from being melee, then you could just nerf him. Locket being an issue on enchanters is too great.

No, I'm saying he has too much range to even be considered melee.

Supports are arguably the most important and strongest role right now. Their items are so broken that tanks are beginning to use them.

It's not all the items. It's just Censer and Coin.

I thought nerfing tanks as equally, as they are part of fucking bruisers, was implied.

Tanks aren't bruisers. And if you make them less tanky, the whole meta will be swept up in bruisers.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, I'm saying he has too much range to even be considered melee.

Does it matter? Does thematics or anything really matter towards balance?

It's not all the items. It's just Censer and Coin.

Knight's Vow on most tanks, Locket on just about every tank (because HP ratio for some stupid reason).

Bruisers can't even hurt tanks let alone attempt to be meta. Only Fiora and Renekton and J4, but why should the world be dictated by these 3 champions?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Does it matter? Does thematics or anything really matter towards balance?

Are you TRYING to make me say something bannable? Like...WHAT?

Bruisers can't even hurt tanks let alone attempt to be meta. Only Fiora and Renekton and J4, but why should the world be dictated by these 3 champions?

Fiora isn't a bruiser.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Who cares about thematics or anything? Just balance the game.

My point is you could make every bruiser as good as fiora/renekton/j4, but would that really be fun?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Who cares about thematics or anything? Just balance the game.

THRESH HAS OVER 400 RANGE. HE JUST IS NOT MELEE.

My point is you could make every bruiser as good as fiora/renekton/j4, but would that really be fun?

...it would be fun if you could have more champions be good in the game...I don't get this post...

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yeah, but what else changes if Thresh is counted as melee? Like seriously, it doesn't change anything much. He's not abusing Deadmans or Hydras. Relic Shield at most, but minor nerf in return if necessary.

I'm saying the game is less fun if everyone was a broken as Fiora. I'd rather have more proper balance.

chipndip11 votes
  1. Fiora isn't even broken.

  2. NO CHAMPION AT 400 OR HIGHER RANGE WILL BE MELEE RANGED.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Fiora is very broken. Sure you can do: Jebaited TABIS WERE WORN Jebaited BRAMBLE WAS PURCHASED Jebaited FIORA IS WORTHLESS Jebaited

But then that's just a display of Bramble being even more broken.

  1. NO CHAMPION AT 400 OR HIGHER RANGE WILL BE MELEE RANGED.

Why not? Because you said so? Like, actually think, why not? You haven't given a reason. You've simpled stated, "No." in about 5 different ways. Give me an actual reason that makes sense for, "Why not?"

Rebonack1 votes

I've pondered what Kog would look like on an ammo system before.

Turn his W into a toggle (Koggle-toggle?) that runs off ammo. When it is off, Kog is a melee champion that takes bites out of things. Each melee basic attack gives some ammo. Lasting hitting a minion gives more ammo. Biting an enemy champion gives even more ammo. A takedown on an enemy champion gives a TON of ammo. If he kills a unit from range, it leaves Delicious Snacks on the ground that he can walk over to regain ammo.

chipndip11 votes

I imagine he'd need to gain some sort of bonus strength for being tied to in-lane fighting like that, but if it's a late-game marksman that's strong at prolonged sieging, that doesn't sound half-bad as a way to get that across. Issue is that "sieging" is already done for Tristana and now Caitlyn.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I imagine he'd need to gain some sort of bonus strength for being tied to in-lane fighting like that, but if it's a late-game marksman that's strong at prolonged sieging, that doesn't sound half-bad as a way to get that across. Issue is that "sieging" is already done for Tristana and now Caitlyn.

The first thing that comes to mind is his %HP damage becoming passive with the toggle (or active) part of his W just granting oodles of bonus range (and possibly attack speed). Something akin to the Invasion mode Kog could actually be really cool. Kog hits W and slows himself as he starts spooling up, then releases an absolutely devastating barrage of attacks. But that depletes his reserve of ammo really quickly, so now he needs to work himself back up again.

I'm more or less imagining a Juggernaut here with the ability to temporarily go ranged. Unlike other transforming champions, he wouldn't be able to just swap back and forth all willy-nilly since the ranged mode uses a resource and the spool-up time allows people to react. He would still be pretty dangerous in melee, but given that he's a slow champ with ZERO mobility it would really be your own fault if you let him waddle up to you.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Damn dude, I almost upvoted you, aside from that first paragraph you did a pretty good job explaining things. Maybe next time leave out the prejudice and just focus on your idea for ammo and why it works.

{quoted}

I'm legit tired of seeing people getting mad over marksmen. The role isn't that easy. It's super stressful with a target on your back, being super-dependent on hoping that your team realizes they need your ass to win the game, and on top of all of this, your support could just be one of those e-girl types that just want to get carried instead of actually be good.

chipndip11 votes

Hello? I'm a support main? WHAT prejudice?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

OK I was rude about that. But you could have clarified that you weren't a marksman main. The way you started the post off made you look like you were acting like an entitled ADC player. That plus the comment about egirls. The whole paragraph rubbed me the wrong way, hence why I didn't vote.

I did like your reasoning after that paragraph though.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Really not sure why this was down voted, it seems like a very reasonable idea and I'd like to see a good reason why this couldn't work...

Mizaya1 votes

Agree largely with everything except for ammo systems. Why? I think it's a very black-and-white way of adding counterplay, if you understand me. They have designated periods of doing damage... and not doing damage. IMO, the more a player can influence the impact of their champion (either by playing good or bad), the better.

The idea is that if a marksman plays everything right, he should be able to deal a ton of damage. If he plays like shit, he shouldn't do much damage at all. Conversely, enemies should be able to outplay their damage as well. Think of skillshots (Take cass Q and E as an example) and very precise timings.

Also don't really understand the downvotes... this has to be one of the more insightful posts I've read, but then again this is boards.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Agree largely with everything except for ammo systems. Why? I think it's a very black-and-white way of adding counterplay, if you understand me. They have designated periods of doing damage... and not doing damage. IMO, the more a player can influence the impact of their champion (either by playing good or bad), the better.

We did the same thing to assassins, though. Because people thought they were "anti-fun" because they would get popped by fed Rengars and Talons, the assassin update threw off assassin damage patterns. It's more fair to fight around from a personal perspective, but it's actually a glorified assassin nerf from a holistic perspective. Assassins don't have the means to really do their main jobs anymore as a class unless they snowball very hard...or it's Faker playing Fizz.

The idea is that if a marksman plays everything right, he should be able to deal a ton of damage. If he plays like shit, he shouldn't do much damage at all. Conversely, enemies should be able to outplay their damage as well. Think of skillshots (Take cass Q and E as an example) and very precise timings.

This post is basically saying "Add a new element to the concept of 'playing a marksman right'". If you get to a point where you can just right click the world and win, I think something's just down right wrong.

Also don't really understand the downvotes... this has to be one of the more insightful posts I've read, but then again this is boards.

If I don't post something that's easy to wrap the circle jerk around, I get down voted. That's just how it is. No one cares for legitimate discussion or actual balance here. Just the circle jerks.

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