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The HUD element for Kayn's passive needs a major overhaul. It desperately needs clarity.

SzGamer227··52 votes·1,925 views

The current system is very counterintuitive, and if you don't know how Kayn's passive works, there are numerous misunderstandings you can have about what it means, because there is no visual indication of how it's actually behaving. For something that has such a huge impact on Kayn's gameplay, this lack of clarity is a major issue and needs to be acknowledged.

Here's how Kayn's passive works:

  • There are two separate essence counters, one for Red and one for Blue.
  • Whichever essence counter fills first determines the form that Kayn can transform into first.
  • Bars fill faster as the game goes on.
  • Whichever bar is filled with the most progress is displayed as the white bar.

This bar is extremely easy to misinterpret, and I've seen misunderstandings in the past that I had no answer to before but make perfect sense now that I know how the transformation actually works.

Rather early on, I remember seeing a thread that said something to the effect of "Kayn's passive doesn't transform based on which champ type you hit more, but which champ type you hit when you finally transform. Is this a bug?". This was grounded in the assumption that both types of essence added progress towards your transformation (with progress tracked by the white bar), and whichever essence you collected the most of determined your transformation. With this mindset, it could easily appear to be a bug, as you can camp melee champions early and fill a large portion of your bar with Red essence to transform into Rhaast, then kill a ranged champion two times in a row later in the game and get Shadow Assassin as your initial transformation.

Of course, now I understand why this person observed what they did: When you earn your transformation, you are going to transform into the form that correlates to the champion you hit last, not because of a bug, but because you transform when you fill one of your two bars, and you can't fill a bar for a champ type that you aren't attacking.

Solution: Kayn's passive indicator needs to give users a very clear understanding of what is going on behind the scenes at a glance. There should be two separate bars, one for red and one for blue, that fill independenty. When a player attacks a ranged champion, they should see the blue bar fill, and likewise for melee champs and the red bar, and when one of them completes, it should be clear that the bar that was filled was tied to the transformation that was unlocked first.

35 Comments

Blade of Justic15 votes

Just give Kayn a crescent bar on the right and left of his portrait.

One is blue, one is red and they have a 0-100% number on each.

Whichever hits 100% first is what you turn into and the bars disappear afterwards.

My Waifu Vanilla5 votes

Just throw something like this around his portrait and you are honestly good to go.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/promo/h/4/AgbptIBKac_5JSuT6yvFymgwXc.png

Sraeg20136 votes
  • There are two separate bars, one for Red and one for Blue.

To be precise each form has a counter(there is only one bar) and whichever form's counter is the highest is displayed as the progress bar.

  • Bars fill faster as the game goes on.

This one is imo the worst offender.

Just today I've been playing Kayn vs Pantheon lane in 3v3 for like 10 minutes constantly trading, even killing him once or twice(he was bad). 90% on the Darkin since their jungler was melee too. Maybe at around 5th minute I tried ganking Draven at bot, but only managed to hit W. Somewhere between 10-15 minute I managed to kill him. Instant Shadow Assassin.

It's just... ugh.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Because that's not how it works. It's whatever orb actually finishes filling the entire bar. If you get exactly one blue orb, so long as it's the one that gets you to 100%, you get the SA form. If you get nothing but blue, except for the last one being red, you get Darkin.

Sraeg20138 votes

OP literally explained how Kayn's passive works.

You can even check a video on Youtube where a guy doing a Kayn guide kills Karthus later in the game in the practice mode and gets over 50% of the passive from 2 orbs.

Drugoth5 votes

I know it's a different game entirely but I think this is relevant.

http://www.restokin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Eclipse1.jpg

Is this the kind of meter you're referring to?

AirKingNeo2 votes

Here's how Kayn's passive works:

  • There are two separate bars, one for Red and one for Blue.
  • Whichever bar fills first is the form that Kayn can transform into first.
  • Bars fill faster as the game goes on.
  • Whichever bar is filled with the most progress is displayed as the white bar.

Very false. Kayn's passive is one bar and the form you get is determined by the last kind of orb you grab. Fighting ranged Gnar all game? Tap the jungler once to get red form.

InstaPoppy8 votes

He literally just explained why people might think thats how it works.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Nope.

I auto enemy jungle once while at 99% gauge filling only blue.

Still get red.

INoble KnightI5 votes

The White badr shows how close you are to a transformation but not which one. So if you are mostly hitting ranged the bar will be ranged not red.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Incorrect. I just literally just explained it.

Fill blue to 99. Hit melee once. Get red form.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

You seriously need to read the op or look at the wiki. You're making a fool of yourself.

The progress meter above Kayn's portrait tracks the highest number of orbs collected between Red and Blue, not the total. Basically it displays the bar with the most orbs in it currently. Yes the bar is white no matter which is showing, and that's the clarity problem.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Both a wrong so it doesn't matter whether I look at them or not.

But hey, people dislike facts.

Epicanian8 votes

You might think that because orbs are worth barely anything in the very early game, and are worth more as you level up.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

{quoted}

Both a wrong so it doesn't matter whether I look at them or not.

But hey, people dislike facts.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/bZ2Vcdah-til-kayns-passive-actually-works-in-a-super-unintuitive-way

Someone tested this in a video and he's not the first. There's 2 seperate, hidden bars. If you're at 99% at an early point of the game then do a single tick of damage for the other form, you don't instantly get that form. Its added to a 2nd hidden meter. Its only if you finish that bar does it take over the white one. Like google or wiki Kayn's passive, I don't blame you for not knowing since its unintuitive and people assumed your proposal was correct on release, but people have spent time testing it now.

SzGamer2271 votes

If you read the main post, I already explained this phenomenon. The red essence and blue essence are counted separately. Why do you get red form if red orbs are the last ones you picked up? Because picking up red orbs fills your red bar, not your blue bar. If you have 10% progress towards red and 90% progress towards blue, then earn another 90% progress towards red by attacking melee champs, you filled your red progress bar. You can transform into red form. Red orbs were the last orbs you picked up because you had to be attacking melee champions to fill your red bar. If you were attacking ranged champs instead you would have filled your blue bar because you were picking up blue orbs. That doesn't change the fact that it's two separate bars.

Now, the reason we know it's two separate bars is because you can collect a bunch of one essence type then pick up essence of another type and the bar won't move, because the bar only shows the amount of progress you have in your most filled bar. If it were a single bar, every bit of essence would add to the total, but it doesn't. This is hard to observe in normal play however, because engagements with enemy champions are far enough apart from one another that when you switch from attacking one type of champ to another, the value of the orbs you picked up are extremely inflated, meaning you can have a large amount of progress in one bar, but collecting even a few orbs from the other bar will add enough progress to cause that bar to gain a lead on the other and move the bar forwards.

Sohleks2 votes

It's not just the communication of it. The entire mechanic is questionable.

AmazoX2 votes

There's only one bar, Even if you collected red orbs 99% of the time, If the last orb is a blue orb (1%) you get Shadow Assassin Kayn, Personally I like the way it is right now, But it could use whatever clarifications the community need.

Epicanian7 votes

That's not true. It can seem like that because orbs are worth different amounts at different levels, and only the orb type that you currently have more of is displayed.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

its one bar that fills for the transformation. red and blue orbs both advance the bar, but it decides which transformation you get off which orbs you collected the most of.

you can have 40 points red, 60 points blue when the bar hits 100 points total, and then it decides you get shadow assassin.

or you can just have straight 100 points red and get rhaast.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

No actually it's 2 separate bars. 140 for Red and 140 for Blue. It will always show whichever has the higher total.

If you have 60 Blue and 40 Red, your white bar will be 60 full. If you collect 10 more Red, the bar will still only be 60 full cuz you have 60 Blue. The problem here is this:

  1. You don't know if it's Red or Blue that the bar is showing.
  2. You don't know how much of the other orb type you have.

And most people, like yourself, don't even know that this is how it works. That's how big of a clarity issue it is.

Divewing1 votes

What I don't like about the passive is there's very little reward in me risking early trades for the passive.

Why bother when I can just wait until 10 minutes, then roam bot and kill the adc and support and get 3/4 of the bar filled and SA kayn right there?

I get that it's like this so he doesn't get completely shafted if he falls behind early, but it still feels shit

Rockem Sockm1 votes

{quoted}

What I don't like about the passive is there's very little reward in me risking early trades for the passive.

Why bother when I can just wait until 10 minutes, then roam bot and kill the adc and support and get 3/4 of the bar filled and SA kayn right there?

I get that it's like this so he doesn't get completely shafted if he falls behind early, but it still feels shit

I honestly think there should be no lock out. You should be allowed to transform or progress in the second bar.

At the very least they could take jnto account your progress.

MikeyRage1 votes

So you guys know there isn't two bars. Theres one, only one getting orbs from range or melee will fill the bar and whoever you hit last when it fills is the form you'll get. You can go into training mode to test this yourself fight a melee till its almost filled then go slap an ashe (or another adc) and you'll get blue form, if I need to do a video then I will I know this from one testing myself and two playing a lot of mid on another accounts, if I'm against someone like zed when my bar is pixels from being filled ill go bot gank and get the last few orbs to be blue.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

{quoted}

So you guys know there isn't two bars. Theres one, only one getting orbs from range or melee will fill the bar and whoever you hit last when it fills is the form you'll get. You can go into training mode to test this yourself fight a melee till its almost filled then go slap an ashe (or another adc) and you'll get blue form, if I need to do a video then I will I know this from one testing myself and two playing a lot of mid on another accounts, if I'm against someone like zed when my bar is pixels from being filled ill go bot gank and get the last few orbs to be blue.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/bZ2Vcdah-til-kayns-passive-actually-works-in-a-super-unintuitive-way

People have tested this in youtube videos and we know if you do a single tick of dmg when you're at 99% it won't push you over into completion. There's always a hidden meter and the dominant one is tracked for your passive. The amount of orbs increases based on game time so it usually doesn't affect your meter or generates so many extra orbs from time that it takes over. People from the wiki even figured out the exact number of orbs was 140.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kayn

SzGamer2271 votes

Wiki even comments about how it's hard to estimate which form has more progress lmao

SzGamer2271 votes

If you read the main post, I already explained this phenomenon. The red essence and blue essence are counted separately. Why do you get red form if red orbs are the last ones you picked up? Because picking up red orbs fills your red bar, not your blue bar. If you have 60% progress towards red and 90% progress towards blue, then earn another 40% progress towards red by attacking melee champs, you filled your red progress bar. You can transform into red form. Red orbs were the last orbs you picked up because you had to be attacking melee champions to fill your red bar. If you were attacking ranged champs instead you would have filled your blue bar because you were picking up blue orbs. That doesn't change the fact that it's two separate bars.

Now, the reason we know it's two separate bars is because you can collect a bunch of one essence type then pick up essence of another type and the bar won't move, because the bar only shows the amount of progress you have in your most filled bar. If it were a single bar, every bit of essence would add to the total, but it doesn't.

Reiko Ahrisugawa1 votes

while they at it buff's kayn basic form a bit it really feels not that good to play its either you get fed and snowball or get behind and get stuck in basic kayn for 20mins plus

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

Not only add two bars, but IMO make it so whatever amount you filled % wise is cut from your 2nd form. You could even cap this at like 50% or something. If I was whacking melees all day and got it to 75% then I kill one ranged in a fight and get pushed to 100% I shouldn't have to wait 4 minutes for my desired powerspike just because teammates needed help. I'd be ok with a 2 minute wait or something like that but given you have to be aggressive to even start the wait anyway you should at least get partial credit.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Here's how Kayn's passive works:

  • There are two separate bars, one for Red and one for Blue.
  • Whichever bar fills first is the form that Kayn can transform into first.
  • Bars fill faster as the game goes on.
  • Whichever bar is filled with the most progress is displayed as the white bar.

That's atctually NOT how it works. There is no seperate progress so 1 bar is enough, Coloured orbs are just there to troll you, ONLY THE LAST ORB MATTERS and will decide which form you get. This being said the passive needs a rework AND THEN we can change the hud. xD

SzGamer2271 votes

If you read the main post, I already explained this phenomenon. The red essence and blue essence are counted separately. Why do you get red form if red orbs are the last ones you picked up? Because picking up red orbs fills your red bar, not your blue bar. If you have 60% progress towards red and 90% progress towards blue, then earn another 40% progress towards red by attacking melee champs, you filled your red progress bar. You can transform into red form. Red orbs were the last orbs you picked up because you had to be attacking melee champions to fill your red bar. If you were attacking ranged champs instead you would have filled your blue bar because you were picking up blue orbs. That doesn't change the fact that it's two separate bars.

Now, the reason we know it's two separate bars is because you can collect a bunch of one essence type then pick up essence of another type and the bar won't move, because the bar only shows the amount of progress you have in your most filled bar. If it were a single bar, every bit of essence would add to the total, but it doesn't.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

I clearly remember a game where i only collected blue essence and literally the last hit was a W on a melee champion because i had to disengage there and that 1 hit gave me a red orb and the red form. So you think 1 hit will fill up the red bar completely? I don't think so.

Divewing1 votes

It is.

The longer the game goes the more each individual orb counts.

Blow a full rotation on a guy immediately at level 6, you might get 1/3rd. Do it again at 10 minutes. you get 2/3rds.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

So then what does it matter? xD

There is no use in seperate progress bars with the way the passive currently works. It would be unclear and unreliable even with 2 bars.

Divewing2 votes

Most likely, but it's a step in the right direction.

At the least it will make things more transparent, so even if it doesn't solve the fundamental issues with the passive, it will at least make it easier to comprehend

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