5.16: Juggernaut Reworks and Item Changes Discussions

RiotMeddler·Aug 5, 2015·34 votes·46,648 views

Hi all,

Wanted to link a bunch of discussions going on on the PBE boards at the moment regarding the various changes in the 5.16 patch, given threads on the PBE boards tend to have lower visibility than stuff here. Lot more change than the average patch going on, with some stuff that looks pretty weird, overpowered or over-nerfed at least at first read. Lot of details in the threads below that hopefully offer some context on what we're thinking and what we believe the impact of some of these changes will be.

These threads are on the PBE forums specifically to gather feedback from people that are testing/will test the changes in game. Very interested in feedback from other people as well though of course, and currently reading a lot of it both here and on various 3rd party sites. As usual these are PBE changes and therefore subject to change as we polish kits, balance numbers, fix bugs etc. There are also some changes that are much more, or less, impactful in game than they may appear at a glance on paper (e.g. Morde gaining a bit of extra attack range).

Skarner: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/d2bmpMif-skarner-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Garen: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Darius: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Grx91k8I-darius-pbe-changelist-and-feedback

Morde: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread

New Items: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/rFbd7hyy-new-items-steraks-gage-and-titanic-hydra

Defensive Item Changes: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/yMtrbjGs-core-defense-items-pass-516

157 Comments

ArchenzAug 5, 201533 votes

Meddler, I've played Skarner through all the reworks and nerfs and buff. But this was final nail in the coffin, you've finally done it and all it took you was 3 reworks. You've killed skarner, it's not even the same champion I loved when I bought, it's just some crappy zone control bug.

His passive is stupid, because he is either Balanced in his spires and underpowered everywhere else, or OP in his spires and regular everywhere else.

This was not what I expected, I though after all the reworks, you would really get it this time, understand his identity, but you honestly don't, and I don't think you ever will, I know its impossible to change his passive now since you made an announcement and in the main website.

I really had hopes.

Edit: Ive posted a "fix" to his passive, I hope everyone can check it out and tell me what you think about it.

Prospector PeteAug 5, 201516 votes

His passive is absolutely worthless if you're not in SR, and it benefits his enemies...

ArchenzAug 5, 201515 votes

There is literally no reason now to NOT pick Vi or Hecarim over him. I'm absolutely disgusted with these changes, at least he previous reworks had ways to balance him, but this, this is going to be something impossibly hard to balance.

Not to mention gutting his movement speed.

Like what the hell are they thinking!

Edit: I'm sorry if I'm a little salty atm, I really liked Skarner

NefasAug 5, 20159 votes

I honestly am able to enjoy him to a decent degree with his current kit. But this rework looks truly awful and I wouldn't ever want to play it.

He is now going to be weak as a base state but only situationally has any move speed and attack speed since everything has been taken from his q. That's crap. His passive stun which allowed him to stun multiple people throughout a teamfight or in a camp is practically gone - one maybe two stuns from an E on a much much higher cooldown. I'm really doubtful about his early jungling - no matter how much attack speed and mana sustain he gets from his pillars he won't be able to stun camps nearly as often (especially because he won't be able to have access to stun to start the game since you won't start E).

There are so many problems with this rework it is depressing.

Spare Head 2Aug 5, 20159 votes

I've never played Skarner, and I don't know much about him. I don't know how he used to be. But this change to his passive, it's pretty darn stupid. Way too complicated, way too involved. I don't want to play a minigame within the game. I just want to play the game. This is stupid. Now I'll make sure to never buy him.

The WhamboozlerAug 5, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spare Head 2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I4iBcowH,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2015-08-05T04:29:22.950+0000)

I've never played Skarner, and I don't know much about him.

I don't think anyone who has ever worked on his reworks does either.

Arcane AzmadiAug 5, 201529 votes

Oh good, a red thread. Now I can finally tell you utterly fucking retarded these changes are!

Darius The changes to his Crippling Strike are (pun intended) crippling. The MS slow being doubled is pretty meaningless with its duration halved since he can no longer chain it on bleeding targets. Additionally, the flat removal of the AS debuff means other bruiser champs can just stand right up to him and murder him now, especially with the nerf to his passive damage and removal of the split damage type that made him hard to defend against. He's not even a bully any more. Also, while I get that his E's ability to grab people AFTER they blinked away was a bug (a bug that you let fly by for over 3 years, mind) it was the only thing that really made him viable. Now he's REALLY going to get the living shit kited out of him. Oh and since the Q now doesn't make targets bleed if they get hit by the handle, his E is worse than ever because it still pulls people into handle range, so he's going to have to actually move away from them before he Qs. Also, what the fuck is the point of putting a 0.75 sec delay on his Q?! You also gutted the damage on ALL of his damaging abilities and no I DON'T think the new passive is going to make up for it (that said, I do think the new way the passive will automatically apply 5 bleed stacks to anyone he hits is absolutely stupid). I don't think the rework is a COMPLETE write-off, but I still think it kinda sucks. Still, there are too many moving parts to do a proper assessment yet.

Garen

FUCK YOU!

I cannot BELIEVE you can shit out something this incredibly moronic and think it's a good idea! You are trying to force AD Garen to be a thing by nerfing the flat damage of Judgement, buffing the ratios, and adding extra ticks to the spin, but then you go and take his actual weaknessess (you know, the ones that already prevent him from seeing play) and turn them UP TO 100! You remove his tenacity, gut his silence, make him slow himself while spinning on an enemy and give him NO new mobility or CC or ANYTHING that will encourage the opponent to sit around and take his damage like a good little noob! You also reverted his W back to its old, incredibly shitty state (presumably to further encourage us to build him glass cannon AD by nerfing his tank build), COMPLETELY oblivious to the fact that, thanks to how easily he gets kited now, he's going to need to be tankier than ever (and can't be)! Additionally, thanks to the changes to Judgement's ticks, Garen won't reach his power spike now until level 16! This so-called "rework" is so utterly worthless that it makes the Zilean rework (oh yeah, Zilean still sucks balls btw) look like release LeBlanc. It's so UTTERLY moronic that Forrest Gump would turn up his nose at it. "I may not be a smart man, but I do know what nerfs are!"

Skarner

What the fuck is this shit?! "Let's remove all his steroids and put them onto stupid map objective things that the enemy can easily take from him, making him super-mega-ultra vulnerable to invade junglers and completely WORTHLESS at contesting Baron and Dragon if the opponents get there first and further reduce his CC because ganking and duelling aren't important for Skarner, a champion designed as an uber-ganker and duellist." The new passive is just retarded. Simply retarded. It is literally the DUMBEST idea for a champion kit you guys have ever, EVER had. Even Ekko's suggested "rewind the entire map" ultimate wouldn't have been this dumb. Yeah, let's concentrate all of a champion's power into 6 specific locations on the map, and THEN allow the enemy to take this power away from him- of COURSE the enemy won't take his shrines and they'll all obligingly funnel in to the places where Skarner is strong to let him fight them! Why wouldn't they? Dumb, dumb, DUMB! Are you guys taking the piss?!

Mordekaiser

No. Just no. People are NOT going to run Mordekaiser in bot lane in place of an AD carry. If you think this would ever, EVER happen then I'm afraid it's time to put on this long-sleeved jacket and go with these nice young men in the white coats to the room with the padded walls. That idea is RETARDED. The only way it would ever, EVER happen is if you made Morde as a carry so insanely OP that he'd be a 100% pick ban for the 24 hours it would take you to hotfix him back to worthlessness again. The BEST case scenario is that people will just continue to play him in solo top by maxing his E and Q and not putting ranks into his W at ALL until laning phase is over because it effectively doesn't exist, and then just leaning on the sheer bullshit factor of his new ability to enslave Dragon ghosts. I'm actually kind of approving of the change towards making him an AD or hybrid bruiser because, like Sion, it never really made sense that this Sauron-on-steroids with a mace the size of Akali is basically a burst mage, but the W changes are really, REALLY stupid.

Items The MR buffs are good because you horribly overcosted MR in the first place. The AR nerfs are bad, but I can live with them. The new items? Eh, who cares. They're probably going to be abused by someone you didn't intend for them to be by like Yi or Xin or something.

But you're nerfing Cinderhulk AGAIN while apparently continuing to leave Sated Devourer untouched, even as it continues to destroy the game. Because carries rule and tanks drool.

I'm sorry Riot, but seriously, this time you've gone too far. You've overstretched your "benefit of the doubt" credit limit. I'm not going to have faith this time. This is moronic and stupid and you're killing the game. If these changes go out like this, I think I'm done with LoL. I've been playing for 5 years, but this is just the final proof that you guys have completely lost the plot.

RocketRelmAug 5, 20156 votes

But you're nerfing Cinderhulk AGAIN while apparently continuing to leave Sated Devourer untouched, even as it continues to destroy the game. Because carries rule and tanks drool.

Came to the wrong Jungler Mr. Meddler. Pretty much everyone who plays a tank is out for Riot blood.

These two quotes are what I want to point out (who are from different people but Boards doesn't know how to differentiate), because while I have a 'lot' of mixed feelings about the Juggernaut changes, I'm personally incredibly sad about the Cinderhulk nerfs, and am hoping that the storm about the reworks doesn't leave it under the weather. At maximum the Cinderhulk nerfs make you have 90 HP more when you buy the item, in exchange for considerable nerfs later on.

You already nerfed Cinderhulk an incredible amount with the previous incarnations, and by introducing all of these % HP (and true damage) mechanics. Does Cinderhulk really need 'another' nerf? Will you at least buff Sejauni to compensate because the primary reason she was nerfed was because she abused an overtuned Cinderhulk, but now Cinderhulk will be extremely underwhelming?

I predict that tank jungles will be dead and buried after patch 5.16 if the defense itemization goes live as-is.

sp441Aug 5, 201519 votes

Hoooh boy...

Meddler boy, you jus don goofed with these changes...

I mean, I can't comment much on the Darius rework since I don't play with him, but the Garen rework is really bothersome to me. He lost most of his already minuscule sticking power, and traded almost all of his early game power for late game power that he most likely won't get to use because he has no way to access it.

I mean, not only are you making it impossible for him to stick to quick targets by making judgment slow when going towards enemy champions, but you're also removing Tenacity on his W. Garen is already insanely peelable as is, removing it so that a support's widdle feelings aren't hurt when he walks through their CC is not a fair trade off for him not being able to reach his target because any crowd control is enough to completely halt his advance.

And that's not even getting to how Skarner's entire power budget went to giving his enemies free wards and gold...

EchoZeeroAug 5, 201515 votes

Giving champions an identity is one thing. Tying their identity to a lane Mordekaiser or to parts of the map Skarner is just really bad design. Now about Garen, you're just gutting him so hard that is only identity will be found at the bottom of a trash can.

KeevalroyAug 5, 201514 votes

and currently reading a lot of it both here and on various 3rd party sites.

Stop...

Talk to people who can prove they're actually players.

sp441Aug 5, 201513 votes

Man, do you even want to go through all the grievances that we have with these changes? Cuz we're going to be here for a while if you do.

RiotMeddlerAug 5, 201521 votes

Yes, I'd definitely like to hear the grievances people have with these changes, discussions like this one are one of the main reasons I spend time on the forums in the first place.

ArcticSiriusAug 5, 201513 votes

Might want to take a look at the Mordekaiser fanbase and have a chat with CertainlyT. We're mad, we want to be able to just as well in solo lane as duo. Not "have a harder time but still ok" and that's putting it softly with how most of us feel.

PyrodiniumAug 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Might want to take a look at the Mordekaiser fanbase and have a chat with CertainlyT.

These changes come with the review and approval of the Champion Update team, and Riot Games' in general. They aren't just a CertainlyT thing.

ArcticSiriusAug 5, 20158 votes

He was the designer behind him however. And so while it was a group effort, it was also someone's responsibility. And yes, PBE is a testing ground for the community with feedback and such, I can only hope that the changes most of the Mordekaiser fanbase is having problems with will be met and we meet a middle ground. Again, someone has to be held responsible. In this case, it would be the mind behind it.

ZondervainAug 5, 20156 votes

I only really play Skarner, so I'm only gonna give thoughts on him.

W- I really like the shield change, however because of the nerf to his base movespeed and Q movespeed, it is much much weaker throughout the game.

R- No real complaint here.

E- The projectile speed slow as it hits enemies, on top of the fact that he has to stand still to cast it feels clunky more than anything else, though thank-you for adding the stun on it.

Q- The ad ratio change is nice, the lower mana and cd is nice, but he has no way to stick onto a target in a lane, either for a gank, or if he is actually laning. He just runs at them, hits E, and prays his laner has the damage and cc to back him up.

Passive- If the enemy decides to invade, all they have to do to be successful is to take away his shrine. That's it. Further, if ONE lane get ahead, they can invade his jungle and take away his shrines. I will admit that when he is on them, he is strong. But he has to BE on them. Which isn't always a good idea, or even possible. Lastly, his passive can be turned against him unlike really any other champion in the game.

Overall, Skarner has a couple good changes, better burst utility, but is no longer a sustained cc, sticky, bug. I don't have much fun with him on the PBE because he is slow and clunky. And more than anything else that make me sad, because I really like Skarner. :(

KingsgraveAug 5, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I'd definitely like to hear the grievances people have with these changes, discussions like this one are one of the main reasons I spend time on the forums in the first place.

You guys captured Darius perfectly with his rework

Garen/Morde/Skarner not really at all

ZyvuxAug 5, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I'd definitely like to hear the grievances people have with these changes, discussions like this one are one of the main reasons I spend time on the forums in the first place.

I think a good basis is to start with the general opinion people have on the 4 new reworks:

Darius: Probably considered the only "good" one out of the four, it gives him a clear basis of being the warmonger that he is. God forbid you let him get his new passive, it'll be a slaughterfest. However, in order to become that unstoppable force, he needs to find a way to get the passive going, because without it his general damage is nerfed. Overall, although q can use a few more number adjustments, this is an example of a good rework. (That fear on his ult is probably the best part.)

Garen: This rework, although it had some good ideas, only ended up hurting garen. Now, he is even more kiteable than before. Some of the main grievances are towards his new w. Its purpose was to be the one point wonder it was, not something you have to farm. Also, by removing tenacity, you pretty much ruined Garen's ain way of even thinking about getting to the back line eventually. And even if he gets there, he won't be able to make his damage stick due to the fact that his e slows him down when doing its job of damaging a champion. Although some people also complain about the silence nerf in comparison to others (Hi Cho), this is more up for debate. Really for this what you messed up on here is making him more kiteable. The villan system is a cool addition that gives him some nice strengths to him, but due to the fact that he can be kited even more now it is basically pointless. Really just fix the issue of him getting kited and make w a one point wonder again, and you have yourself a really strong champion.

Morde: This is where things get ugly. As someone said on the boards, you basically made him into the badass metal demon that devours souls who requires a babysitter on order to even function properly. Simply put, trying to pidgeonhole him into bot is, while creative, just not a good idea. The purpose of the marksman is to bring dps to a fight, and morde does not do that in any way. You could say his new q, but good luck landing that on anyone besides the tank. If you really wanted to put something unique bot, something like cassiopeia makes some sense, as she has dps. (Don't get any ideas though.) Having a pet dragon is badass, and definitely a good unique change, but making the rest of his kit weaker in solo lanes for it just isn't a good tradeoff. He is in no way fit to be a duo laner, and he does have a unique identity of being the huehuehue faceroll immobile mage tank he is. There is zero reason to change it.

Skarner: Across ALL of the boards, there in a general consensus of the skarner rework. It is, for lack of a better terminology, a massive steaming pile of sh*t. There is practically NOTHING beneficial to him in this rework, aside from one thing and that is the w change, which is actually pretty good. Skarner is a freaking scorpion that will hunt you down, maul you, and drag you away to your doom, not some little insect that requires to be near a horribly misplaced rock to function as a playable character that isn't the legend known as prerework eve. It should be obvious just by looking around that these changes just aren't good in any way, and should pretty much be scrapped before more damage is done. Without his rock he is slow as hell and offers barely anything to the team, and all they really do is make him harder to counterjungle, something that was already pretty hard to do to him since he clears pretty fast. You guys messed up before with skarner, and only made him into his current, fun model by listening to the community. Don't make the same mistake again, listen to us, and just scrap this entire spire concept. Skarner really only needs a change to his e, and that's it. He already has his gameplay fantasy of being the scorpion that will drag you off to your doom and will make sure you cannot escape his pincers, and not only does it fit him perfectly, it is both fun and has counterplay. So please, don't do this to him. Do not ruin this champ a second time. Please.

ZetaAug 5, 20158 votes

You made Skarner into a gimped version of Reksai who has no control over burrow placement. If you want this to work you need to delete one of his actives and give him the ability to place crystals intelligently. Instead you are half assing it.

SpecterVonBarenAug 5, 20156 votes

I can only really speak for Skarner's changes but I think it's a net nerf to him. I actually don't mind the idea of him having these crystals as part of his gameplay but I don't think the current iteration of them is fun or provide anything interesting to his gameplay. I know it might seem kind of lazy but I'm going to quote what I said from a post I made on Reddit about this. (If you want to just skip to the part where I talk about how his crystals don't make him any more unique then skip to the bolded part at the ened)

As an avid Skarner fan, I'm currently rather pessimistic about his upcoming changes on the PBE as they look like a net nerf, however...

I did think of something that could perhaps make it a little better which is instead of his crystals just being in these six designated spots, what if they made it so once you have your ultimate, you can use it on these crystals to move them to new positions (Maybe you could reactivate his R to let go of it or have it so it lasts twice as long as it does when he ults an enemy) and have a 10 second cooldown before you could use it on that crystal again (With the enemy cooldown being separate from the crystal cooldown).

This way you could actually set up your crystals ahead of time and plan strategies around them, maybe you drag one into a lane bush so when you gank it you'll get the boost, or maybe have a line of them down mid lane for any big roaming teamfights.

If you want an example of this kind of mechanic then look up Earth Spirit from Dota 2.

Edit1: Adding on to this. Someone pointed out to me that this could make laning Skarner oppressive with the buffs since he could move on of these crystals to his lane and then just be really powerful forever. My solution to this is they could have his crystals slowly lose effectiveness the longer Skarner is within their range before reaching some minimum effectiveness and only start recharging once he leaves their range.

Edit2: I thought I should bring up one of my replies to xxx in the thread since it describes my general feelings on this rework.

"I think you underestimate how strong or unique current Skarner is but I do understand how if you just look at how the game plays out at the end of the day with him on your team it is about the same as it is with a lot of other champions.

And while Riot does follow up on their changes, the time in between making them and changing them can sometimes be months or YEARS, so I can agree with the people that are a bit more... boisterous about the changes in the sense of raising our issues now rather than later.

I think the main issue with this change as it is now is just that it actually doesn't go far enough. If this new passive is supposed to define Skarner then it needs to be more meaningful than it is.

Someone mentioned that Skarner is currently just a ball of stats champion, and while I disagree with this, it does make sense in that a lot of the things in his kit are buffs and debuffs. The issue with this rework is that it doesn't actually fix this sentiment, all it does is make it so his buffs are tied to these crystals. So instead of a "generic" fighter that pretty good or even great no matter where he goes, he's now a generic fighter that's only great on about 15% of the map and terrible on the rest of it.

Instead they should make it so he can move these crystals or when he uses one of his abilities on them then it causes some other effect, maybe qing a crystal causes it to ring out and silence enemies in the area for 1 second, maybe e'ing a crystal causes it to splinter out in all directions from the crystal. It needs to be a more interesting dynamic than just "Your attack and movespeed are better here.""

ErijianAug 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I'd definitely like to hear the grievances people have with these changes, discussions like this one are one of the main reasons I spend time on the forums in the first place.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3ftvhn/garens_84_pbe_changes_cannot_go_through_heres_why/

An extremely detailed post from Reddit as to why these changes are going to hurt Garen way more than they help him; and are overall a nerf. Hope you guys read over and at least consider it while doing the PBE adjustments.

Please don't ruin Garen.

Arcane AzmadiAug 5, 201510 votes

And what are you going to DO with these grievances, Meddler? Pardon me for saying so, but Riot don't have a good track record of actually listening to feedback and making meaningful adjustments in response to it. Just ask all the Veigar and Zilean players.

Oh wait. There aren't any left.

NefasAug 5, 201511 votes

Let's say your bold new vision for Morde fails and you can't balance him for bot lane. What then? Will he be dropped and ignored? How long are you going to actually be committed to working on these changes? Cass' dropped state looms large.

Troy242621Aug 5, 201511 votes

Yeah I have a question. Can I refund my Battlecast skin?

ErijianAug 5, 201510 votes

{quoted}

If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he's at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger.

Can we just drop the whole Garen rework entirely? What's the point in this entire rework if he's "at least as powerful" but overall less fun or more frustrating to play?

Arcane AzmadiAug 5, 20157 votes

Also, I just don't believe them about him being as powerful as on live. Unless they're assessing "powerful" by testing the damage he does to mindless target dummies.

If you believe this rework is not going to be just plain shit you're delusional.

rG ThundragAug 5, 20159 votes

Garen's stickyness was nerfed so hard with the 20% self slow on his e against champions and shorter silence duration.

I'm also not sure why garen's late game tankiness on his w was removed in exchange for a gimmicky bonus that wants you to amass large amounts of health to supplement the resistance bonuses when most garen players preferred to get high resistance items like item 3075 item 3512 or hybrid offense/defense items like item 3156 item 3068 even rarely item 3139

M SchumacherAug 5, 20159 votes

Skarner is ruined, what on earth were you guys thinking?

sp441Aug 5, 20159 votes

Hey Meddler, here's my suggestion: Find Elko and burrow his Z-Drive, cuz your team has made the worst decisions possible this patch.

Well, a more realistic suggestion would be to not ship these reworks, they're garbage.

HumanPerfectAug 5, 20158 votes

I hope that Riot goes through with all of these stupid ass changes that everyone is bitching about.

Why? Because I'm spiteful about Riot butchering Teemo and Fiora. Taking away Teemo's unique niche of map control (no other champion in the game focuses on planting mines around the map) and turning him into another generic "did you just see that sick skill shot? #LCSBigPlays" champion.... Hell, look at Fiora's Champion Update page: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-update/champion-update-fiora

There is almost nothing in the comments section except complaining about the rework. Instead of listening to the community they decided to put their hands against their ears and pretend like they're doing everyone a favor. This is proof that Riot doesn't give a fuck what the players think and will go through with any changes they've devoted enough time and resources to without community input regardless of backlash.

Enjoy.

Arcane AzmadiAug 5, 201511 votes

Can't really argue with that. If the Boot of Speed fits, wear it.

FadedpfAug 5, 20157 votes

Juggernauts with paper for armor that costs them a fortune.

Phuc Dat BichAug 5, 20157 votes

I am gonna talk about garen because this is the one i care about!!

A-Dont nerf his silence you people say that you wouldnt touch his silence but you destroy it!! Garen have only one soft CC his silence and you people gut it!! GAREN NEED his silence in order to be able to do something!!

B-Dont put the 20% Slow on his SPIN i dont need to explain why here ok? i mean who ever think that need to be fired YESTERDAY not now BUT YESTERDAY because this is just stupid...

C-His W holly damn you people have say when garen was like that that stacking was a bad skill so you fix it and now you go back to 2011? i think we making progress riot and not going back to dark ages....

D-His passive nerf? why? that was complete random..i mean you already nerf his health per Level and in the same time you nerf his passive ratio? Garen atm in top lane have way too many counters AKA GNAR who can poke him down without even trying and you people destroy his only sustain ability? ON TOP OF HIS HP PER level? REALLY?

And you call that a "buff" to garen? this is "we take garen and we delete from the game"

46104328_DELAug 5, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Hi all,

Wanted to link a bunch of discussions going on on the PBE boards at the moment regarding the various changes in the 5.16 patch, given threads on the PBE boards tend to have lower visibility than stuff here. Lot more change than the average patch going on, with some stuff that looks pretty weird, overpowered or over-nerfed at least at first read. Lot of details in the threads below that hopefully offer some context on what we're thinking and what we believe the impact of some of these changes will be.

These threads are on the PBE forums specifically to gather feedback from people that are testing/will test the changes in game. Very interested in feedback from other people as well though of course, and currently reading a lot of it both here and on various 3rd party sites. As usual these are PBE changes and therefore subject to change as we polish kits, balance numbers, fix bugs etc. There are also some changes that are much more, or less, impactful in game than they may appear at a glance on paper (e.g. Morde gaining a bit of extra attack range).

Skarner: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/d2bmpMif-skarner-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Garen: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread

Darius: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Grx91k8I-darius-pbe-changelist-and-feedback

Morde: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread

New Items: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/rFbd7hyy-new-items-steraks-gage-and-titanic-hydra

Defensive Item Changes: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/yMtrbjGs-core-defense-items-pass-516

Came to the wrong Jungler Mr. Meddler. Pretty much everyone who plays a tank is out for Riot blood. Specifically the mains of the "Juggernauts."

I do thank you for showing me this, though. Watching RiotRepitoir try and fail to contain all the fury of Skarner mains with lies and "butbutubtbut, this is TOTALLY GREAT you guys! And the passive only gives the enemy a LITTLE bit of free gold and vision!"

JusticePauldronsAug 5, 20157 votes

You made Garen slow himself for doing his only job and then gutted his only form of crowd control which doesn't stop people from moving or doing damage. Something which you said you weren't going to touch. You nerfed his base stats, his regen, his tenacity and then are telling us it will be better. You could make his spin do 3000 per tick for all I care, it won't matter if the only way we hit someone with it is by burning flash.

What did we gain from this besides a slower, dumber Garen? True damage against a single target in the situation they are leading? Reduced cooldowns and more damage on a skill that penalizes us when we use it? I don't get it guys.

Prospector PeteAug 5, 20156 votes

Yay, finally this is up. I've been waited for so long to find these.

lightdragoon88Aug 5, 20156 votes

Ok so Skarner changes to QWE seems ok...but that passive....that passive is awful. Why make the area so small? Why make enemies capture them? Unless you can make the areas much much bigger for Skarner movement/mana buff then this passive would feel worthless.

And what about Skarner passive on other maps?

ErockandrollAug 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ok so Skarner changes to QWE seems ok...but that passive....that passive is awful. Why make the area so small? Why make enemies capture them? Unless you can make the areas much much bigger for Skarner movement/mana buff then this passive would feel worthless.

And what about Skarner passive on other maps?

Had to read the details more closely. It would seem that most capture effects apply to allies and enemies alike. Except for the boosts to Skarner. And by the looks of it, I wouldn't even think that it's size is much of an issue. Though it seems small since the Jungle is relatively close quarters. But making it any bigger would take up the half of the Quadrant of the Jungle. But over all, the passive is designed so that your team mates can better help you. (and Teamwork is OP)

My only real concern is the mini game itself. That mini game is a map wide game, that could drastically change the conditions of SR.

lightdragoon88Aug 5, 20154 votes

Yeah the passive gives him attack speed, movement speed, and mana regen when inside these areas, so unless you are fighting in the jungle this passive does nothing to lane skarner or skarner when he ganks.

And again what about other maps?

Ironclad DragonAug 5, 20156 votes

Reposting for visibility.

Riot should give the Titanic Hydra a different name to separate it from Ravenous Hydra. A lot of players refer to RH as just Hydra, so let's not create any confusion. Riot could call it The Ladon if they want to keep it Hydra-related. Ladon was a multiheaded dragon of Greek mythology, just like the Hydra, but it had a hundred heads and was a sacred creature of Hera. Fits the description of "titanic hydra", would't you say?

Chespin2013Aug 5, 20156 votes

WTF is this shit. Its like we are going back to patch 5. (FUCK YOU'RE 5 AD) 4. This thought process by the balance team lately is atrocious . You practically gutted Skarner with this stupid capture the flag mini game THAT NO ONE WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE! And now you're trying to force Mordekaiser into the botlane? How the actual fuck do these changes get through with the balance? You are just now doing the same thing you did with Veiger and Cass and Ryze too all of these champs now. A gameplay update is to solve the current issues that were the problem they needed the update in the first place not just dramatically change on what their identity should be. This is the fucking 3RD REWORK FOR SKARNER NOW. Skarner as he is pretty much fine could use some buffs for his e maybe but nonetheless fine. Now you're nerfing everything on him and calling this a rework??? Gutting his whole kit is not the way a proper gameplay update should be at all. Sometimes I question just how these meetings take place on terms of champion balance because it very much confuses me on what you guys want. You guys said when DFG got removed that Veiger and Mordekaiser would get "Compensation" and boy did we find that out what it meant. This is just hypocritical and sad on how you guys just blatantly lie to the community. Am I being irrational? Yes but not without a reason to be over something like changes like these. You guys just took out Skarners lore last year with the shurima event and now you gutted his kit this year with the new gameplay update. What's next is his VU gonna make him look like something out of MS paint? Please for God sakes don't let these changes go through as they are now because this is so atrocious I might just quit League all together over something like this that can easily be reverted.

Señor KarthusAug 5, 20156 votes

I usually tend to be constructive and positive with changes and wait to see them but these ones are clearly a wrong step and it is destroying the game when it was in a very nice position except for certain CHampions that lost their spot. But this goes nowhere. And the armor changes... it is just impossible to understand. 5 AD teams will be much more dangerous than 5 AP teams. Armor items are pretty much useless now. Tanks like Garen are pretty much useless now. And Morde... MORDE.............. I have no words. "Reworking" a Champion to be basically the same but worse solo and FORCING it on a lane where he obviously doesn't belong and won't be able to do jackshit, especially in a meta where ADCs are going to be SO RELEVANT thanks to the gutting of armor items... Who in hell is going to prefer a Morde bot over an adc.

Just no. Stop being tryhards and THINK THINGS THROUGH.

RocketRelmAug 5, 20156 votes

As a side note, a post was made by Xypherous in the PBE here that I wanted to respond to, but didn't get to http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/yMtrbjGs-core-defense-items-pass-516?comment=000a0000

The other facet of this is that if Cinderhulk has to compete in the end-game - what it effectively does is create unstoppable characters that cannot be killed - and so even if it does work - it wouldn't be a state we'd be particularly happy with.

Does this mean that it's confirmed that tanks are unallowed to be strong and scale with gold? Because ignoring the fact that the Cinderhulk "buff" is at most 85-80 HP right when you first buy the item, you've stated a core design philosophy that if I play a tank, I have to rush the game to end by 30 min, otherwise I will suck. I liked the fact that tanks could still be relevant in the end game, is there any way for that to work?

GuardmanAug 5, 20154 votes

Posting a link to the discussion here because it has all of my points laid out: [(http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/l8EGT76k-garens-changes-seem-very-forced-for-the-sake-of-uniqueness?show=flat&page=2)]

But to boil it down, I am not even going to talk about buffs or nerfs to Garen since that is subject to change, but I will talk about the fact by forcing "uniqueness" on to him, you are taking away or nerfing almost everything that was unique about him: His long silence, insane out of combat sustain, best early game in the game and his ability to 100% an out of position squishy. He is the only Tank Assassin in the game, and his power is shifted so he is designed to function in this roll only if his target is a Villain (which is a poorly designed mechanic as it adds nothing interesting as far as choice {and any choice decisions it does make is a false choice}).

Also the W passive change. I've played Garen since season 1. There was a reason the passive was changed to its current iteration and that was because it was unfun, not very noticible, and a hassle not a reward. This change irks me most of all because it undoes one of the best changes Riot ever made as it really made Garen more fun to play since you didn't have to struggle with farming it up and when to level it. Really that was the biggest problem, if you didn't level it, it was useless all game as it was hard to level late game and if you did level it you were giving up a ton of early and mid game damage.

manbearswineAug 5, 20154 votes

I think we are lacking context for the armor nerfs,tank top laners seems to be somewhere between okay to slightly sub-par,tank supports don't have as much gold,so nerfing them through tank itemization seems a bit silly,and tank junglers seem to be dead again(You know something is wrong when even sejuani is below 50% winrate),It's not very clear what the goal of these changes is.

GloriousKaiserAug 5, 20154 votes

Olaf is laughing at these guys.

thumbnail9Aug 5, 20154 votes

I have to say the majority of the champion changes are bad except Darius'. I will warn you that making those changes to Garen is going to be incredibly stupid.

Other than that I knew Riot was going to shift back to bruisers as the tank meta was just stupid. There is a lot of room for champions like Olaf, Udyr, Jax, Tryndamere, and Aatroxx to name a few. I'm looking for Olaf to be the best out of the change because Gage finally solves his ulting issue. However, there are going to be an insane amount of auto attackers that become amazing just because of Gage alone.

JuscarTheDreadAug 5, 20154 votes

I still think personally i Want my solo lane morde i play morde mid and top and i love him personally and im against most of these changes especially the nerfing to his E burst His E did most of his team fight damage in my opinion and was his best spell Q was just more for some direct focus but less dmg.

Oh and ya the W changes stupid Rip all morde mains and morde solo lanes Morde now permentaly bot and even then i think its gonna fail.

ty rito for ruining my favorite champion

i dont get why all of a sudden there CHANGING ALL THE CHAMPIONS

Seriously soo many champion reworks being pushed out too fast this getting stupid and not enough testing or feedback from the general masses of players

would it hurt to just put out a survey?

AMYS GRAVEAug 5, 20154 votes

**Skarner: **His relics look interesting on paper. It looks like you have lowered his base MS and given him MS for capturing these points which means (given that these relics are in the jungle) he will be able to clear faster with more sustain (mana regen near them), but his ganking potential is way down. How do you think Skarner will compare/compete with other farm heavy, low ganking, high sustain junglers like shyvana?

If capturing his points grants gold, how well with skarner be able to counter jungle when doing so effectively by capturing a point means he will grant gold to the enemy jungler?

If he uses his points to counter jungle isn't he broadcasting his presence?

I see some discussions around the points granting level 1 gold, could the gold granted by capturing them be removed for the first time they are captured so that gold is only granted when they are taken from the enemy team?