Why I think Lee Sin is Low Skillcap, Low Risk, and High Reward

Battlecast Sona··10 votes·1,318 views

So, I've said off and on on the boards that I think Lee Sin has a very low skillcap. People seem to think that this means I think he's easy to play.

Here's the fact of the matter - Lee Sin is easy to play at a base level of proficiency, and he gets very good results from just this base level of proficiency. Even if you can't land a Q to save your life, if you can push flash and R, you can kick someone into your team and win games off of said kicks without any other skill as the champion. Build full tank and use your utility and mobility to set up fights, distract the team, etc - you don't have to land your Q's and do damage to do this.

Additionally, in the same way, you land a Q on someone early game for a gank and you can easily destroy them if your laner has any sort of CC/high damage, just off your high mobility and slow.

You fail? Drop a ward and W out.

Where is the risk? Where is the skillcap? Landing one skillshot is not a high skillcap. By that logic, Xerath is the most difficult champion in League to play as he has 2 skillshots and 2 ground targetted delayed AoEs.

What people MEAN when they say the words high skillcap is high skill ceiling. Lee Sin does not require a lot of skill to play at a proficient level, however, if you have a high knowledge of the characters mechanics you can do much more than that.

Now, looking at the health of the game, let's take a look at the last champion that was released with a high skill ceiling (at least as high as Lee's, imo): Orianna

Orianna enjoyed about one patch nerf free and then received a HUGE ratio and base damage nerf to a lot of her abilities (and a movement speed reduction on her ball), coupled with some QoL buffs to make her not completely worthless. For 3-4 patches after that, she continued to receive scaling nerfs and base damage nerfs on her damage because of the huge amount of utility she offered.

Now let's look at Lee Sin:

The first patch after he was released, he received scaling buffs across the board. A few minor base damage nerfs (10 damage or less, unlike Orianna's above where she lost about 30-40 base damage on each ability at max rank). Then he got energy reductions on all of his abilities. THEN, and this is the important part - ALL OF THE NERFS AND BUFFS (aside from energy changes) were reverted. He lost the bonus scaling but gained back the base damage, kept the bonus energy on AA for his passive, kept all of the range increases and minor QoL buffs he received... And lost a tiny, tiny bit of utility (ASPD slow on E).

And then he was untouched for like, a year.

How is this, in any way, fair? Lee Sin is a mobile bruiser who is lauded as "high skillcap" which we've already identified as an actual "high skill ceiling". This character has been complained about and been one of the top competitive junglers pretty much since his release, with the running joke being that he'll never be nerfed. Lee Sin mains protect themselves by arguing that he's a "high skillcap" character, but he's not. Lee Sin's gameplay pattern is incredibly basic and VERY safe - for ganks, come in Q, E, W out if it gets dicey. W in for range, Q, E, autoattack. Or get close with W, E, and then Q. At all times, you have the option of easily leaving the fight with your escape, or, if you're 6, kicking people away from you and running.

Now take Orianna, another character who is a high skill ceiling, and she has very limited mobility and no real escape. People talk about Lee Sin "outplays" all the time but I know to this day I am more impressed by an Orianna player (or a Xerath player or any mage player, really) who manages to escape a jungle gank without blowing a summoner spell, and yet Lee Sin could do it all day long if he wanted to. If you placed Lee Sin in the middle lane and compared his mobility, safety, and danger to his enemy laner to almost anyone in the cast (barring someone like Katarina, perhaps), he would win out. The only reason we don't see Lee Sin in the lane that often is because he applies pressure more easily from the jungle.

tl;dr: Lee Sin is lauded as "high skillcap", actually has a high skill ceiling. He continues to receive nothing, and in fact a lot of nerfs were reverted, aside from minor utility nerfs. Meanwhile, characters with actual high skillcaps are continually nerfed on both utility and damage while given minor QoL to keep them playable. Why isn't Lee Sin receiving the same kind of treatment? I find it hard to believe they'd ever be able to make that character unplayable due to the amount of utility he has, so why does he get to do lots of damage off of bases and %hp?

13 Comments

disregardable1 votes

No sir. Annie has a low skill cap, low risk, and high reward. It is why her win rate has been over 50% for a long time, and her pick rate has skyrocketed. If Lee Sin's skill floor was really that low with that much reward, he'd be doing just as well as Annie. Instead, he is like Thresh. High pick rates with low success rates.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

Did you actually read the post or are you just responding to the title?

I explain in detail why Lee Sin does not have a high skillcap, but a high skill ceiling, and the primary difference between these things.

Just because people fail as Lee Sin doesn't mean he's hard - people fail as Irelia too and her play pattern is incredibly binary.

disregardable1 votes

No, you didn't really explain anything, and the whole idea of a low skill floor is that the champion is easy to succeed at. If a large number of people are failing to succeed with him IN COMPARISON TO OTHER CHAMPIONS, his skill floor is not that low. Is his skill floor as high as Rengar's? Not really. But it is not low, and Lee Sin really isn't a problem in anyone's games.

If he needed a nerf, they'd have nerfed him.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

Are you...

Are you trying to tell me the most universally complained about champion in all of League of Legends (aside from like, Teemo and Nidalee), isn't a problem?

are you... are you serious? Have you ever played this game before?

disregardable2 votes

Are you really arguing they should nerf Lee Sin for no reason other than circlejerk?

Battlecast Sona1 votes

No dude, I'm arguing they should nerf him because he brings too much damage for the utility he brings. Much for the same reason that orianna's damage was hella nerfed across the board. I swear you didn't even read - my argument is that due to the volatility and "high skill ceiling" of his kit, he has too many options. I don't mind his kit as a disruptive bruiser, but when he snowballs early and goes hydra into LW and suddenly can oneshot anyone on your team, I suddenly have a problem with that. It's like if Katarina had a huge CC ability as her ultimate - she would instantly be nerfed. And yet, Lee Sin, with comparable mobility, can theoretically displace one person and knock up 4 other people on top of having an AoE slow, a mobility/shield/lifesteal tool, and a gapcloser. At least someone like Katarina has to choose between escape and gapcloser - Lee Sin has both.

His kit is overloaded for how easy it is too play. He has too many options to disrupt and harass for how much damage his kit does with very little AD.

disregardable2 votes

but when he snowballs early and goes hydra into LW and suddenly can oneshot anyone on your team, I suddenly have a problem with that

Why would you have a problem with that? If Lee Sin doesn't build tanky, your ADC can 3 shot him. The same is true for Reksai, Gnar, Jarvan, and all of the other bruiser disrupters. Except Vi. Vi is fucking bullshit.

You don't get high damage, high tank Lee Sin unless you just feed him. Like he has to have a 5000 gold lead on you to feel like that.

I'd say his kit is par for the course of bruiser disruptors. You build damage, you die too much to make an impact. You go tanky, you still do a lot of damage but you need your team.

OxBaker1 votes

Yeah, Lee Sin is one of the lower skill cap champs in the game. I do get a kick out of how Lee Sin players seem to think it takes some special skill to roll their faces over the keyboard and collect their kills.

Pencil Horizon1 votes

This is about Lee, not Zed and Kat.

thinking man1 votes

The reason why Lee Sin is high skillcap is because his kit by itself with no ward jumps is terrible for a bruiser but when you add in the ward jumps it is suddenly much stronger.

Lee Sin is probably the worst duelist among bruisers and his only redeeming quality is the reliability of a pseudo-assassin/peel. He's outclassed by most jungle tanks right now anyways, and some of the old shit like Vi.

Might Kylo1 votes

"If you placed Lee Sin in the middle lane and compared his mobility, safety, and danger to his enemy laner to almost anyone in the cast (barring someone like Katarina, perhaps), he would win out. The only reason we don't see Lee Sin in the lane that often is because he applies pressure more easily from the jungle." Actually, I mained top lane Lee Sin last season into diamond 3 and the reason you don't see him in lane is because they've nerfed the hell out of it. They removed his W shielding himself if he jumps to a ward or minion and the cooldown is longer than if you shield yourself or an ally. They also nerfed his E to no longer slowing attack speed. They have continually nerfed Lee Sin over and over yet people whine and circlejerk over him for no reason.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

Utility nerfed?

Damage still gud.

Might Kylo1 votes

Lee has to invest a lot into AD to actually do damage. I honestly feel like you just lost a ranked game to a damage Lee Sin and are now whining. Compared to other Damage Bruisers, almost all of them outclass Lee Sin if they build the same. Damage Vi would dumpster damage Lee Sin. Tank Vi would dumpster tank Lee Sin. Damage J4 would dumpster Damage Lee Sin. Tank J4 would dumpster Tank Lee Sin.

Lee Sin is a purely early game champion so obviously he is going to try and snowball the game out of control. If you don't feed him you win the game. Must be hard not to feed in gold tho.

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