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Nashor's Tooth on Azir is a trap.

Battlecast Sona··18 votes·17,654 views

So recently I have been seeing more Azir play (probably because of the buff/him being played at IEM/what have you). There's something I had noticed and really thought about and then saw evidence of while watching Bjergsen play - he makes two Morellonomicons. Now, let's think about this, shall we? The de-facto item to go for has been Nashor's on Azir. Riot has said that even though he doesn't get the on-hit, the other stats are good for him. This may very well be true, but I am tired of seeing people rush this item and then be like "why do I DO NO DAMAGE?! I THOUGHT THIS CHAMP WAS GOOD WTH"

Well it's simple. Nashor's Tooth is a trap.

The item's cost, AP, and all other stats were created and balanced around the idea that you'd get additional mileage out of the magic damage on-hit. This makes it good for people like Teemo, Diana, etc who already have magic damage based passives attached to autoattacking.

Looking at Azir though, I think the build path is pretty clear. Morellonomicon into dcap/zhonya's/damage item. This is also supported by a couple of Azir's earlygame patterns. In the early game, you're not going to have as much time to have soldiers sit and AA, in general - you're going for a Q into one or two AAs for your poke pattern, and maybe soldier AA Q AA if they're closer to you. This means that building a needlessly large rod item (zhonya's or dcap, I wouldn't think DFG but it could be a good source of additional cdr/aspd and some burst potential) is going to net you more damage in general. And then what? Well, I still don't think Nashor's is a good choice.

So you made a dcap? Probably should make a Zhonya's for the escape. Made a Zhonya's? Probably should make a dcap or void staff to scale your damage into mid/late. I personally make Athene's because I feel the stats are more beneficial to Azir than Nashor's - but my understanding is that Athene's isn't generally what people build midlane anymore.

My point is mostly that you definitely shouldn't rush Nashor's. It probably shouldn't be your second item. I see this item as a lategame powerspike for Azir, if purchased on him at all - "my soldiers are getting a lot of opportunities to AA so I need the additional aspd and CDR to get as many hits in as possible". But please, please, stop rushing Nashor's Tooth in games. Stop rushing RoA. Morellonomicon is the way. (or Athene's if you're oldschool). And then DAMAGE. Take advantage of the Q and ultimate AP ratio's rather than trying to force yourself to gamble for additional soldier hits.

47 Comments

Saianna3 votes

Aren't you guys bit overreacting?

Battlecast Sona5 votes

Not really? I'm just posting about something I perceive as a problem. I'm not angry that people do, but I sure do wish they'd stop and think about itemization. I want to see more posts from people who DO think Nashor's Tooth first is the way to go so that I can get an idea of the logic behind it. I just can't really make it work and I've tried both ways and been much more successful ignoring Nashor's Tooth entirely.

WeG1 votes

I've tried all the builds, and honestly Nashor's first is the only build <I> can get to work. I think the trick to Azir is to play insanely passive for the first 15 minutes of the game.

Duke Anax3 votes

The answer is simple: only take item 3101 it's cheap, but already has most of the AS and the CDR.

You can update it later, but even then I'd go for item 3172 , it's way more efficient on Azir than item 3115

Omega3601 votes

I agree with the waiting on Nashor's part, but I'm thinking that his build should be like:

item 3165item 3157item 3115 (item 3020item 3089item 3026 any of these last three can switch order, since you may sit on t1 boots for whole game and build ga earlier b/c you need survivability).

Totally my opinion, but I've seen it done and be successful. Also keep in mind that with azir's passive, I would say it would double it's price in gold effectiveness without the on-hit passive. Nashor's has everything he needs, why NOT take it on him. Hell that on-hit passive is useful for those situations where you went oom and are screwed and still want to do as much damage as possible.

Velasan1 votes

Noticing a lot of people comment on the "on hit" for nashors. It's basically meant to be used to split push on azir. You use the passive on hit with your soldier tower "bombs" to push down towers quickly. In a fight you only use it when you have teleporters (talon, akali, kat) who jump move faster than you can q a soldier to their position and want to get in extra damage.

It's also not uncommon to push a wave without using your soldiers at all. For example, if my enemy laner just had to back, and I'm on a quarter of my mana but want to push the wave I can just use the nashors enhanced auto to push it into the tower without having to use up my mana on soldiers to make that happen. By the time they return I've probably regenned to about half my mana and can go back to harassing them.

The passive doesn't always come in handy, but there are specific reasons why you want it. It's the same reason you will see an occasional person take arcane blade mastery with him, even though it does nothing most of the time.

Duke Anax1 votes

I almost forgot that Azir is a Siege mage and when he is actually attacking a tower, he won't be having any soldiers out, because of the bombing. So Nashors will do a great deal of extra damage in that situation.

So go item 3101 -> item 3165 or maybe the other way round, then see where you need to go. AP Defense or Siege.

PS ... full stop, wait a moment : Arabian style champ that has his soldiers suicide bombing enemy towers... This sounds just sooo wrong, lol (; Why did I notice that only now and why has no one else either? Considering this community, the Forum should have been flooded.

Vheissu1 votes

Egyptian*Azir

5G8Nri0B543 votes

It's a trap, but...I'd much rather see an Azir building Nashor's than say...an Orianna building Nashor's or a MF building Manamune.

In short, it's a trap, but it's not terribly bad a trap.

Wheatloaf2 votes

It really depends on whether you want your power curve to pan out more like an ADC, or more like a traditional mage. Since you already have an actual ADC bot lane, taking Nashor's for late-game DPS is probably suboptimal most of the time in soloqueue.

Poptart Evelynn2 votes

Nomicon is the best ap item to get now.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think Azir is a trap champ.

Battlecast Sona4 votes

Why do you think that? I've had some pretty major successes playing him, but I understand some people have horrible game after horrible game on him so maybe I just got lucky.

Linna Excel2 votes

Mostly because he released buggy and his win rate is just too low for my liking. At 46%, picking him is a bit of a liability on your team. I'm hesitant to pick a champ that's below 48% in ranked.

I will pick champs that low from time to time, I love playing shyv, but I recognize it isn't helping my team when I do.

Battlecast Sona5 votes

But winrate has almost nothing to do with a champion's strength. Lee Sin has one of the lower winrates for junglers but most people agree that he is a very, very good jungler in the right hands. I think Azir's low winrate might also have to do with people itemizing him improperly, which is kind of the point of this whole post. I see what you're saying though - it's very easy to feed a wide variety of midlaners if you play the matchup improperly.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think improper itemization is a part of it, but it isn't all of it. Lee Sin's problem is he has to win the game early and for 80% of soloqueue, that's not going to happen as often as you need it too and he falls off.

Asatorrr1 votes

I think Azir's win rate is mostly tied up with his kit/mechanics being so micro manage-y. I know I don't play him because of it and if I did play him I wouldn't do well.

Raptamei1 votes

But winrate has almost nothing to do with a champion's strength. Lee Sin has one of the lower winrates for junglers but most people agree that he is a very, very good jungler in the right hands.

There are no right hands for Lee Sin in solo queue.

Winrate in solo queue is a very good indicator of whether you should pick a champion in solo queue, unlike LCS pick rates.

Champion Skin1 votes

Depends if a champion has a very low pick rate then the Winrate might not actually be very accurate or telling of the champions general strength (might mostlybe picked into favorable situations or mostly played by people knowing the champion rather well)

warpenguin5551 votes

I think Azir is a trap champ.

dude, he is extremely strong. just because hes not auto play doesn't mean he sucks

Morpey1 votes

It generally just makes his build patch too awkward. Theoretically it's extremely gold efficient on him, but only stat-wise. Due to his low attack speed scaling, it's generally better to just go a more standard build patch, as you end up just weaving your Q's between soldier autos, rather than just soldier autos.

Edit: I pretty much made a TL:DR of your post.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

It's better to go Morello's + Nashor's instead of double Morello's on Azir, though I haven't tried replacing Athene's with Morello's yet

And generally you don't rush Nashor's unless you're double stinger cheesing

For 820 more gold you get 50% AS and 20 less AP, as well as the on hit passive

You do lose some mana regen of course, but that much isn't really necessary

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

It's a trap but it isn't as bad of a trap as Essence Reaver and Runaan's is on ADC's.

Everytime I see one make that I know they're new. If I see Nashor's on Azir it's still kind of like "The item is still pretty decent though"

Talamare1 votes

I build Azir super tanky

LordVeral1 votes

my first 3 items (not in order) are nashors, roa and morellobook. I get my attack speed, a good 60 ap, and cd then the survivability (roa should be first or second..or else you won't get the full deal until late late game..which..sucks) and morellobook with the last 20% cd and more ap. i then get items like penstaff and hourglass. along with pen boots.

Raptamei1 votes

This is also supported by a couple of Azir's earlygame patterns. In the early game, you're not going to have as much time to have soldiers sit and AA, in general - you're going for a Q into one or two AAs for your poke pattern, and maybe soldier AA Q AA if they're closer to you.

I thought his poke pattern was soldier - watch it do nothing - take a bouncing bomb to the face - miss two last hits because your soldier is doing nothing and preventing you from attacking.

Don't pick useless champs in ranked please.

Nausicäa 1 votes

Everyone who plays Azir already knows not to build Nashors. You're better off buying CDR boots or CDR runes.

Darth Valer1 votes

I haven't read the whole tread and not even all the main post. Anyway I'm toxic so I'll still express my opinion. For a long time I've tried the AP Bruiser shit build, with Nashor's Tooth, Rod of Ages and Ionian Boots as core items. Anyhow, after trying the glass cannon build and seeing how strong it was, I abandoned the first idea. I built Nashor's Tooth nonetheless. The primary concern about this item is that when you (AA) -> Q -> AA you don't get more than an AA after Q unless the opponent somehow stands in your aggro area (which, unless CCed by someone else, will not likely happen). Thus the attack speed boost is almost inexistent. It has some sort of effect only later in the game, when you do teamfights and combat areas are more stationary. But at that point you probably have reached the 40% CDR cap and strive for other items.

My "nowadays" build is: Ionian Boots, Athene's (vs AP)/Morellonomicon (vs AD), Rabadon/Zhoonya (one after the other), Rilay, Void Staff

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Nashor's work pretty well when synergised with Will of the Ancients, only depends if your opponent doesn't do too much burst damage, while you can AA away while sustaining health. But of course, this type of build will come pretty late, and oh look, they pushed til mid inhib :p

OJ1911 votes

can you like, not teach people how to play Azir better. I'm sick of being zoned from the entire wave simply because I'm not playing a lane bully champion who can 100-0 him pre-6 then freely get to him to kill him post-6.

TheUntitledKing1 votes

If (for whatever reason) you feel like splitpushing or generally bolstering your pushing power, Nashors is perfect for him. It does give him all the stats he wants, just there are other items that do that for less and don't have wasted passives. However, a pushing Azir is one of the fastest tower shredders in the game, and the AS from Nashors does help him push minion waves faster. His high-rate AA's + Nashors passive + W damage on tower makes for a tremendously strong pusher. In most cases though - especially in Champion-Champion combat - the item slot spent on Nashors could be spent on something much better, like a Rylai's or NLR item.

Orangesilk1 votes

I just need to say, much like RoA bruiser Nashors Azir is garbage... RoA, Nashors bruiser Diana is garbage, and Nashors is one hell of a trap on Diana:

-You STILL cannot duel bruisers because they all have sustain in their kit and itemization but you don't.

-You are NOT going to be landing many consecutive AA's on a carry because everyone squishy wants to run away from a Diana, it's just human nature, so instead of assuming that AS is going to help you, try to capitalize on the FEW AA's you can actually land on a carry (Usually 3 AA's, one from gapclosing once, one from using your CC, one from your second gapclose, right enough to proc that passive) by building a LOT of AP burst, usually Zhonias (you won't live after going in without this item) Deathcap (ofc) and Lich Bane (you only have 3 AA's, they all happen right after using a skill, this is so much better)

In short, NEVER build Nashors on Diana, your job is to 100-0 people, zhonias, and hope for the best.

The ONLY valid users of this item are Teemo and Kayle, that's it.

Jasiwel1 votes

It's not bad on him, but it's not cost-effective and you can get the stats elsewhere. The problem isn't so much what it gives you, just that it takes up an item slot for something else you'll need. For example, it could occupy a space for Void Staff or Rylai's when you really only need Morellonomicon instead.

Furthermore, you have to get uncomfortably close to use Nashor's to its capacity. While it synergizes really well with Azir's stats, you're really squishy and position-dependent. The question is more of "Is the damage difference worth it?" It's possible that it's a negligible damage difference for having to put yourself close to assassins and bruisers to be as effective as possible.

It's fun to use Nashor's, but to win I use CDR Scaling Blues (15%) w/CDR 5% Masteries and just build Nomicon or Athene's. I'll hit 40% CDR later and I can prioritize important damage items like Void Staff or SorcShoes.

WeG1 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1622262410/31668401?tab=builds

This was without a doubt my most impressive Azir game to date, getting 408 CS in 41 minutes. It's not like I got all that CS at the end of the game either, I kept steady CS the entire game. Rushing Nashor's is the only way I play Azir in the current state of things, for a few reasons. The first and most important reason, is for farm. If you take a look at the overview, you'll notice that I didn't get a kill or die before 14 minutes into the game. Man I wish I had a replay I could watch, because I felt like I was a pro that game.

The Nashor's rush allowed me to safely farm, and as soon as it was completed I nearly immediately took mid tower, and got 2 kills. My team lost the next 3 towers and the 1st dragon, then I picked up 4 more kills and a few more towers to pull my team in the lead and at that point we just kept snowballing. The reason all this is relevant, is because of the monstrous CS I managed to maintain this entire time.

The attack speed and AP from Nashor's let's you clear waves insanely fast, without having to use a lot of mana. Not only your lane minions, but jungle camps are ridiculously easy to clear with Azir as well. Of course once any champion hits a certain level they can do the same thing, but once Nashor's is completed it takes about 2-3 seconds to clear jungle camps. Maybe 4-5 for a buff, but probably not.

If you'll notice I didn't even buy a mana regen item this game, and I didn't have mana problems all game either. Not because I was given blue buff repeatedly, either. It's because the attack speed let's you save mana by autoing quicker and more often.

I know this wasn't a challenger game or anything, it wasn't even ranked. But it's a great example of why I build Azir the way I build him. I haven't felt that powerful playing any champion since this game, over a month later.

TL/DR Build Nashor's to play safe and FARM FARM FARM, powerspike around 15 minutes, then wreck while not forgetting to FARM and push towers hard when flash is up.

Velasan1 votes

Nashors is not a trap it's just part of a specific combination build.

For example, if you built rylai's or liandry's then nashors is often your 3rd to 4th item to grant maximum number of on hits. This actually does work quite well together, but you need to be making the build which is going for maximum soldier autos.

If you are not going said build, then you are going the glass cannon AP build which is often seraph staff into rabaddons and then uses ionian boots and 1 more item like a morellos to max out the cdr (or has extra cdr runes).

Rod of ages isn't a trap either, it's just the item you build when you are counter picked, and you are like omg I just need to survive until late game. It lets you sustain while farming from near your tower and gives all relevant stats.

I'm an Azir main, and I actually like the secrecy of people NOT knowing how to play him. This thread just proves, however, how much confusion there is about the champ.

For example, he was recently nerfed so all of his scalings for AP are low. His W and his R are highest with W being around 60 which is just short of making mpen a better stat on him (at 50% it is better to build mpen than AP because of the reduction by MR). So, it's hard to say if even the glass cannon builds are going to be as good as they used to be since they tend to rely on the double soldier Q to double auto a low opponent combo.

Anyways, I'm still hoping they revert his last changes and I think his mechanics actually ran more smoothly when he was first released. He has so many skills that seem to "stutter" when used. He's my favorite anyways and he can do some crazy things not because his kits insane, but because he has really great play making ability.

Azir is all about making plays.

P.S. he's actually quite good in ranked, and counters many of the more obnoxious champs (like teemo and malzahar due to his ability to hit invisible champions with Q and that he outranges mal). He is by far one of the safest possible champs to use with a lot of range and two disengages, but he suffers from a gap closing assassin heavy meta (looking at kat and akali). If that were to change he would probably do a lot better as long as his mechanics were smoothed out.

Azir

Grimwohl1 votes

nashors has heavily nerfed since release. Anyone who uses it has also been severely nerfed, and it jut doesnt feel good to buy.

Nubeel1 votes

I personally Like Nashor's Tooth on Azir but only as a last item. The attackspeed it gives you is very nice lategame but for it's cost it's pretty terrible early game.

I usually get Morello > Sorc Shoes > Codex > Zhonyas/Deathcap > Void Staff > Zhonyas/Deathcap > Finish my Nashors tooth.

Renaille1 votes

From the wiki "The base stats are 117.74% gold efficient, without its passive." If you utilize these stats well, like Azir does, it is 117% worth the cost. You reference Nashor's being good on Diana but I'd say it is a much better item on Azir than it is on Diana. It isn't a noob trap on Azir at all.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I feel it isn't so much of a trap as it is simply a subtle result of the mobility creep in the game. You touched on this actually, quite simply it's not as effective to get AS on Azir moreso than simply from his passive because you're not going to get too many hits in. Thus you usually do better with harder hitting single hits than higher overall dps sustained damage.

junglerboy161 votes

It does seem like it helps late game when you need to kill towers (since soldiers cannot hit towers except for being placed over one). Nashor's is almost never a rush item though, except Kayle I guess. It is designed to scale strongly into late game as you buy more AP. Rushing it is like rushing Deathcap; It is certaainly a strong item, but by itself, it is hardly as strong as a Zhonya's for example.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

If it's any good it's obviously later in the game.

BakugoBestBoy1 votes

Nashors is a noob trap on Azir because due to his design, people are fooled into thinking he is an AA reliant champion who scales well with attack speed. And that is bullsh!t. If your opponent is not brain dead or involved in a heavy teamfight environment, you aren't going to get to repeatedly AA them, they simply move out of range of your soldiers and might get AA'd once or twice. You don't max W on Azir, you max Q. It's your only effective trading tool. You also never use your ult on Azir offensively. It's a zoning tool, safety net so that you can get off a few Q AA's during a teamfight without being dove immediately. Make the most of your passive by hitting 40% cdr yes, but then go full AP so your Q and the few AA's you can get off actually do damage.

Akeito1 votes

Nashor suck.

Always get Morell - Deathcap - Zhonya - CDR boot ( grats, with 5% mastery you now have 40% cdr ) - Void Staff - Defensive Item ( Banshee, GA )

TheRainInSpain1 votes

I personally wouldn't make the jump to connect Fiendish Codex to Stinger until mid/late game or if I get massively fed. I would put the Fiendish Codex into a DFG or Morell. However, in my opinion, I wouldn't rush Nashor's Tooth. I would rush a Rod of Ages and focus on using my zone control and harassment to poke down enemies. I've seen a couple of people do this and their impact ended up far better than those who attempted an all in burst mage setup. Maybe if I was forced into mid lane would I try for a burst setup, but his kit feels more like a top laner (Ryze, Lissandra, Heimerdinger) than a mid laner (Lux, LeBlanc, Annie). Staying alive is far more important in a non-snowballing based champion than killing your lane opponent. It's not like he's supposed to be an AP Riven, where he NEEDS to get fed. Azir doesn't need to be fed to make a big, non-utility Support, impact.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

something else to note about Nashors, that makes it a worse buy than Morello or Athenes -

the attack speed is only efficient after the 3rd solider attack. therefore you're getting less damage until you've attacked 4 times with a single soldier (in between Qs) with Nashors versus an Athenes. That's a 60 AP athenes. This effect is even more pronounced between morello and nashors (80 vs 50).

First of all, it takes some kind of idiot to stand there and tank 4 full autos from the same soldier unless they're outright killing you. Second, at CDR cap you will be able to reposition your solders often enough that it's unlikely you'll even want to auto 4+ times in between Qs.

Spikeman711 votes

I play Azir a lot and have around a 12 kill average. My build path is this and suits him well. I save Zhonyas for the late game because Azir has an easy escape.

item 1056 item 3089 item 3115 item 3158 item 3116 item 3157 then sell the item 1056 for a item 3135

If I'm behind I'll stall item 3089 for another item 1056 until I catch back up. After catching up I sell the 2nd item 1056

The item 3115 is made to go with item 3116 because item 3116 's passive ( basic attacks slow enemies by 15%) allows you to dish out 2-3 more hits before they get out of range of the soldier; however, by then you should be close enough to q again and send the soldier back into the target. item 3158 are most useful for the low cd on escapes and especially when you are comboing item 3115 item 3116 .

Zarxis1 votes

Now that Azir's soldiers have absolutely miniscule attack ranges as of 5.3, you're quite likely to get some regular autoattacks thrown in by accident. Nashor's might be worth buying because of that.

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