they should bring back the laser beam turrets

Glîtchy·Aug 23, 2018·50 votes·13,957 views

cause the whole point of base turrets was to be the last line of defense, not complete pushovers.

44 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaAug 23, 201812 votes

I was actually pondering upgradable turrets (or lanes)..

What if instead of just buffing turrets, each lane had upgrades (think black market brawlers, if you have been around that long) that could be bought with tokens from large minions, shutdowns, first turret, ect?

Being able to choose to give your turret a regenerating shield, or upgrade it to a beam, or maybe fun situationals like a lane spotlight or a dash-blocking shield would be interesting and add a little choice and depth - even a losing lane can feel like they are doing something useful.

Tomoe GozenAug 24, 20186 votes

Uh, no. Turret upgrades are terrible idea.

Especially when someone will then be tasked to buy them if lanes are failing and you can sure as hell already figure out who's going to be stuck sinking their meager income into Tower Defense mechanic - the supports. Because "carry" classes won't give up their gold. So it would become the new "support's job is to provide wards for the entire team" meta Riot curbed a few years ago.

Or, it would be an entirely bad mechanic if you suddenly lose top lane so you need to "strengthen" your defenses to give you a fair chance. But then again, you're sinking your gold into something that won't last long and you're only gimping yourself even further. So either your upgrades need to provide a mountain level of defense so that it's worth it for you to make a safe haven under your T3 turrets (and make sure it doesn't fall until you say it can) in order to pay off OR it becomes that good so every champion can basically purchase TD and delay the laning phase as much as possible.

In the end, you end up with gameplay where no matter how much of a lead you secure for yourself, your enemy can say "fuck you" and decide to freeze a lane until he's fat and plump, ready to fight you. And then you'll see no comps that would want to take some risky plays, everyone would be content in just farming for 20 minutes until time's up and teamfights need to start happening.

MagicFlyingLlamaAug 24, 20181 votes

You should at least read a post before you bash it.

All of your points are either totally irrelevant or easily resolved by not making it ludicrously overpowered - how is it any different from just buffing turrets, aside from having a bit more control and potential for synergy/counterplay?

Tomoe GozenAug 25, 20181 votes

I did read it and that's why i said your idea of investing in "upgradable" turrets is bad. If someone needs to pay for this upgrade, the gameplay doesn't revolve around strengthening your champion anymore and taking down objectives.

If the upgrade isn't strong enough, why even bother spending gold if the turret is going to fall anyway? Giving you 5+ minutes more under it while you're losing isn't going to give you back your lane and if you're ahead, you're never going to invest in such a mechanic anyway. Therefore, the only option is that these upgrades be actually super strong in order to pay off or still end up as a useless and unnecessary mechanic.

Besides, this is exactly the same mechanic we had in Nexus Siege, even if it was a little over the top.

Buffing turrets is something that benefits both teams while making a mechanic that gives turrets optional buffs while you spend gold on it, makes games bad in their entirety. Teams that are ahead will never invest in it while defending teams would exclusively spend gold making their base defenses stronger, again resulting in games where individual lane leads could be negated completely in favor of turtling base defenses.

In the off chance that the invested turret buffs by the losing team aren't enough, you've just spent the meager amount of gold you had and thrown it away. That means you can't contest anything, you can't defend your base and you can't fight the enemy. So you might as well sit AFK in base waiting for the enemy team to finish.

MagicFlyingLlamaAug 25, 20181 votes

You obviously never did, because i clarified in the first paragraph that it should not be payed for with gold. For the exact reasons you explained.

Tomoe GozenAug 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You obviously never did, because i clarified in the first paragraph that it should not be payed for with gold. For the exact reasons you explained.

And should they be paid in poro biscuits instead? Even if you time gate the upgrades, it would still be bad because then you're either trying to work against the clock or it's too late to act anyway. If they end up being time gated, then everyone would simply buy them because they can and extra tower defense doesn't hurt anyone, even if you're winning.

I'd rather towers be consistent and be buffed for all, as sturdy objectives until a certain point than be worried that the so called "upgrades" will add another element to the game that needs to be balanced based on player upgrade purchases. These won't be the same as GP's ult upgrades.

It's simply not a good idea to do that.

MarothennanAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I was actually pondering upgradable turrets (or lanes)..

What if instead of just buffing turrets, each lane had upgrades (think black market brawlers, if you have been around that long) that could be bought with tokens from large minions, shutdowns, first turret, ect?

Being able to choose to give your turret a regenerating shield, or upgrade it to a beam, or maybe fun situationals like a lane spotlight or a dash-blocking shield would be interesting and add a little choice and depth - even a losing lane can feel like they are doing something useful.

The game is centered around taking towers and shit but let's not make it a tower defense game please!

Fondling GemsAug 23, 201810 votes

Honestly I hated laser turrets for the simple fact that they completely changed the rules of csing under turret, which just resulted in a further drop in gold when behind.

Warlord RhinarkAug 24, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I0jVn9Up,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-23T20:36:02.691+0000)

Honestly I hated laser turrets for the simple fact that they completely changed the rules of csing under turret, which just resulted in a further drop in gold when behind.

We could make it so the turret only activated "laser mode" when attacking champions.

RookPusherAug 23, 20188 votes

They should bring back the lazer tower, and give it Fountain level strength. If you want to hit that tower, you'd better make sure there are minions around...

OtterlyLostAug 23, 20188 votes

I just miss when the second tier had a little shield for itself and you.

rtbf225618241Aug 24, 20182 votes

The shield it gave champions was pretty OP in my opinion though.

S0kaXAug 23, 20183 votes

Why did they even remove them?

ModWulf HelhammerAug 23, 201819 votes

Because the player base complained that they were useless.

And they were. They sucked at clearing minion waves and all around weren’t that great

GlîtchyAug 23, 201819 votes

{quoted}

Because the player base complained that they were useless.

And they were. They sucked at clearing minion waves and all around weren’t that great

and these turrets are any better? they're complete ass.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 23, 201813 votes

You seem to be under the impression that Nexus turrets are supposed to be strong.

They aren’t.

At that stage of the game, you are supposed to defend the turrets, not the other way around. This is a tower defense game, not a towers defend one.

They are supposed to deter enemies from engaging on you unless they are confident they won’t misplay, and to be a roadblock to minions so that they don’t instantly march down the lane to your base.

If you make the final towers the strongest in the game, the game never ends. You already have the advantage of less space to cover to defend and closer fountain to heal and buy, you don’t need the structures to be the strongest on the field.

GlîtchyAug 23, 20188 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be under the impression that Nexus turrets are supposed to be strong.

They aren’t.

At that stage of the game, you are supposed to defend the turrets, not the other way around. This is a tower defense game, not a towers defend one.

They are supposed to deter enemies from engaging on you unless they are confident they won’t misplay, and to be a roadblock to minions so that they don’t instantly march down the lane to your base.

If you make the final towers the strongest in the game, the game never ends. You already have the advantage of less space to cover to defend and closer fountain to heal and buy, you don’t need the structures to be the strongest on the field.

yeah and right now the towers suck ass when it comes to trying to deter dives, heck even mages can survive turrets long enough to kill you now.

Hay5eedAug 23, 20183 votes

Except that no tower is actually a deterrent because they all do physical damage and so if someone slightly tanky decides to step in a take agro you are screwed.

Anin777Aug 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be under the impression that Nexus turrets are supposed to be strong.

They aren’t.

At that stage of the game, you are supposed to defend the turrets, not the other way around. This is a tower defense game, not a towers defend one.

They are supposed to deter enemies from engaging on you unless they are confident they won’t misplay, and to be a roadblock to minions so that they don’t instantly march down the lane to your base.

If you make the final towers the strongest in the game, the game never ends. You already have the advantage of less space to cover to defend and closer fountain to heal and buy, you don’t need the structures to be the strongest on the field.

Your statement is false when looking at the current state of the game. Inhib towers can be lost as early as 10-15 mins leaving your nexus towers open. "At that stage of the game", I still don't have 2 full items. If this was 3 seasons ago when t1 towers dropped at that same time, then I'd agree with you. But incase you forgot how strong nexus towers were, look:

Health regeneration reduced to 5 from 15.
Attacks now utilize a laser beam instead of a projectile.
Attack speed increased to 4 from 0.83 - i.e. 4 instances of damage per second.
Now gain 82.5% armor penetration.
Now applies a debuff to its attack target: This unit deals 15% reduced damage and has 10% reduced movement speed.
With every hit, the turret will generate 6 Heat (up to 120). The turret will deal 0.0105% bonus damage for every Heat (0.063% for 6 Heat). When a turret switches targets it will lose all current Heat.

3TWarriorAug 25, 20181 votes

I wanted to comment on this very thing but I do not remember well enough as their use was very brief

I was basically going to say "wait, last I remember, riot said they were doing their job too well and deterring players from entering the range of the turret until late game, thereby almost forcing turtle games"

Anin777Aug 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I wanted to comment on this very thing but I do not remember well enough as their use was very brief

I was basically going to say "wait, last I remember, riot said they were doing their job too well and deterring players from entering the range of the turret until late game, thereby almost forcing turtle games"

That's one way to look at it but that was okay. Average games were still 30-35 but comeback potential was relatively higher than now and games felt more satisfying whether you won or lost.

ShonjlAug 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be under the impression that Nexus turrets are supposed to be strong.

They aren’t.

At that stage of the game, you are supposed to defend the turrets, not the other way around. This is a tower defense game, not a towers defend one.

They are supposed to deter enemies from engaging on you unless they are confident they won’t misplay, and to be a roadblock to minions so that they don’t instantly march down the lane to your base.

If you make the final towers the strongest in the game, the game never ends. You already have the advantage of less space to cover to defend and closer fountain to heal and buy, you don’t need the structures to be the strongest on the field.

While that's great and all. A single super minion also shouldn't be able to take out both your towers. While being shot at by both. At least when champs blow them up in 3 seconds its because its endgame. Minions shouldn't be able to casually take your towers in a single wave by themselves.

I'd personally say make nexus turrets like they are in twisted treeline. 2.5 AS. They will wipe out minions quick so a single minion wave won't kill them. But a tank or two can still juggle just fine still

JohnnyNeverSinsAug 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be under the impression that Nexus turrets are supposed to be strong.

They aren’t.

At that stage of the game, you are supposed to defend the turrets, not the other way around. This is a tower defense game, not a towers defend one.

They are supposed to deter enemies from engaging on you unless they are confident they won’t misplay, and to be a roadblock to minions so that they don’t instantly march down the lane to your base.

If you make the final towers the strongest in the game, the game never ends. You already have the advantage of less space to cover to defend and closer fountain to heal and buy, you don’t need the structures to be the strongest on the field.

And you seem to be under the impression that anything riots saying is right.

JRobin31Aug 24, 20181 votes

Hmm... if what you say is true... then I think the next logical step is for RIOT to make it so that turrets cannot be damaged by minions, because, as you say, they exist "to be a roadblock to minions so that they don't instantly march down the lane to your base."

We have to question: what is the point of super minions?

The idea that you are supposed to defend turrets is at odds with the idea that turrets should be able to stop minions all by themselves.

rayzoAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted} This is a tower defense game

hahahahahhhAHHAHHAHA AAAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA HHHHAHAHAHHHAHHAAAAAA AHAHAHAHHHHAHAAAAAAAAAAA someone call 911 i'm choking to death

BILLAYAug 24, 20181 votes

I thought it was because the weird sound bug that wasn't ever fixed xD

rtbf225618241Aug 24, 20182 votes

A simple solution would be to give them bonus damage towards minions that scales throughout the game. So essentially, they'd clear just as fast, if not faster than normal turrets and melt champions at the same time.

RocketRelmAug 24, 20181 votes

Or, since their damage to minions is a fixed % of the hp of the minions now, to give the laser turrets similar functionality.

Summonah12369Aug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why did they even remove them?

Think they were making it hard with some players computers or something.

4evaAug 24, 20183 votes

[deleted]

GlîtchyAug 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

those turrets were even more useless than these ones, so no.

they deleted super minions faster than these ones, so good enough for me to want them back.

My Waifu VanillaAug 24, 20182 votes

Cool. So instead of Supers tearing apart your nexus towers you get the wave of 15 caster creeps to do it since those turrets took like 3 seconds to kill a single caster creep and then took forever to target switch.

GlîtchyAug 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I0jVn9Up,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T04:35:30.862+0000)

Cool. So instead of Supers tearing apart your nexus towers you get the wave of 15 caster creeps to do it since those turrets took like 3 seconds to kill a single caster creep and then took forever to target switch.

They take long to change target anyway

Camille FerrøsAug 23, 20182 votes

Yes so every game isn't just a dive circus

JackMcSnipeyzAug 24, 20182 votes

Back then the laser turrets were easily the weakest ones, which is part of why they were reverted, you could juggle aggro with barely taking any damage due to the nature of the DPS over the (small) burst of the individual shots.

Jackom1Aug 24, 20181 votes

Yorick

Destello AzulAug 24, 20181 votes

Current Turrets only need 3 things: A % damage reduction: 35% for Outer Turrets, 40% for Inner Turrets, 45% for Inhinbitor Turrets and 50% for Nexus Turrets, plus a 5% more per allied champion in a close range, for example, 500 distance units. A DotA2 ability, called "Backdoor Protection". This ability avoid champions damage the towers without having enemy creeps closed to the turret. No necesary to have siege or super minions in the wave. And a bit more attack speed, because with the problem having only an 0.83 of attack speed, is that they take a long time to retarget an enemy champion who is attacking an allied champion. Whit an attack speed of 1.1, will be enought to solve the problem. And just only these 3 things, imo nothing more.

DevaliahAug 24, 20181 votes

I was just talking about is making turrets deal increasing % of true damage per shot with a friend. first hit is pure AD, second 15-20%, third 30-40% ETC. so if you were tankier you could still take a hit or 2. but you can't sit under it almost indefinitely like some tanks can do now. I took 5 tower shots on Leona the other day and lived being full armor. [sg-zephyr]

BlackEyesBlueAug 24, 20181 votes

I suggested something similar to this awhile back, but it was sadly ignored...

Right now turrets are laughably weak and a big part of why many games are decided in 10 mins. The ease of early dives right now is simply unacceptable. My though was that turrets, all turrets, should target champions like the old inhib towers.

When they target a champion, they should still do a respectable chank of damage on initial contact, but then continue to fire a beam of steadily increasing DPS while inflictin a light debuff to movement and attack speeds. This would make early game dives MUCH more risky and would stop champs like Trynd, Garen, and Duuuuurrrrrrius from just chasing people under a tower for free.

Modl Ryden lAug 24, 20181 votes

So I was just watching a VOD on a player in season 5 (I think is when we had laser beam turrets?) where they were playing Riven.

It got towards the end of the match where this Riven player was diving a TF under an inhibitor turret.

As this player dove under the turret the turret's beam engages on an enemy minion. The second the Riven attacks TF the turret stays locked onto the minion until it kills it. It doesn't shift aggro since it's aggro was already locked onto an existing enemy unit.

So what I'm saying is that I think we don't have beam turrets anymore because of how inconsistent turret aggro is to shift. Something so minor as a minion can soak up the turret DPS while the other champions can go ham on their dives and effectively leaving unscathed. Whereas the current tower shots will shift aggro per shot once it notices an enemy champion is diving and will immediate queue an attack on the diver.

EDIT:

Here's the VOD. It's Faker's Riven so I could assume he has a great understand of a turrets attack range. But you can see that once the tower begins attacking an enemy melee minion it doesn't shift aggro until Faker lands a basic attack right underneath the turret. Even though before the basic attack he landed a knock up from Riven's 3rd Q right underneath the tower, which looks to be well in range of the tower to fire at him.

https://youtu.be/we2Sp-hnzuY?t=26m57s

TKM AxeAug 24, 20181 votes

nah just give the towers more armor and hp. buff the attack speed. 100% crit. 1000 true damage. a teleport so it can get back to base and heal. and minions with baron buff cant attack it. :)

DrCyanideAug 24, 20181 votes

Only if they fix the audio bug. It seemed like every other game the laser sound effect would get stuck on and you'd have a constant buzzing in your ear while buying, despite no enemies even being in your base.

I PT IAug 24, 20181 votes

What if the inhib and nexus turrets had the laser fire but it shot 3 lasers at a time, so it would fire 3 lasers at minions when there's a minion wave under it for example. Just an idea.