The thing about variance/counter-play vs. reliability

chipndip1··8 votes·602 views

So I made a long post a few days ago about how enchanters don't offer much to play around in their play styles, and how the other classes of supports do, and how that's kind of an issue. A good deal of people responded, and some of those people disagreed, saying I just "hate enchanters"...which CAN'T BE FURTHER from the truth, or I "wrongly think that skill shots are the only form of skill expression". This is a post designed to straighten all this out.

When I say "Enchanters have no counter-play/variance", I'm not necessarily saying "There's no feasible answer to dealing with enchanters." I'm saying "When an enchanter does a thing, there is no real counter-action for that thing outside of waiting until it goes away or bashing your face through it." Let's take a few examples: First up...Lulu

Lulu

  • Can't do shit about her passive...obviously.

  • Q can be dodged. More on this later.

  • W on allies is a buff, so you can't do crap about it. W on enemies is a targeted polymorph, so you can't do much about that besides "Wait until it goes away".

  • E is a shield. Can't do shit about that besides "Break the shield" or "Don't do shit until it goes away". E on enemies is a targeted, damaging placement change for Pix, which then moves Q so it basically comes from either Lulu or right on top of that enemy, thus making it so they can't dodge Q, either.

  • R is another ally buff. Can't do shit about it besides "Wait it out" or "Kill them through the buff".

This is an example of a champ that has very little variance in their kit. If I click W on an enemy, there's no missing here. If I click R on an ally, there's no "partial success case" or "failure case". Anything Lulu chooses to do, save her Glitterlance, gets full value the second you use it. There's nothing to play around. No timers, no skill shots, no "low points", no nothing. You could very well put Sona in this space and it'd add up to the same thing.

Next up...Janna

Janna

  • Can't do shit about the passive. Fair enough.

  • Q is a skill shot. Can be missed. Can be dodged.

  • W is a targeted, damaging slow. She slows down in movement speed afterwards.

  • E is a targeted shield on allies. Can't do much here.

  • R is an aoe knockback from herself that heals allies.

Now, this kit actually has more variance than Lulu's, objectively speaking. In practice, however, some of that goodwill goes out the window. The thing is that Janna's VERY reactive as a champion. This means that much of what she does is going to be after enemies do a thing, right? So if I'm diving someone with a champ like Kled, and Janna comes up and shields in reaction, I can't play around that shield, so we eat through it. Then she presses her W. Can't play around that, so we wade through the slow. Then she's pressing R...still can't play around an instant, massive, aoe knock back that heals allies inside of it. So we're starting to see the issue that, although Janna isn't necessarily as bad as Lulu on paper, in practice, once again, only Q has any feasible amount of variance to it, and Q's more of a side thing than a defining part of her play. Soraka is also defined by this "paper =/= practice" sort of issue.

Lastly, let's look at Nami

Nami

  • Insert bullet for passive here.

  • Q's an aoe suspension that can be dodged.

  • W is targeted, but you can move its landing position so it doesn't bounce back to her team.

  • E is a buff for damage + slows on AAs. Can't do shit about it.

  • R is an aoe, slow moving knock-up with a slow after it.

This is an example of a more modern, proper enchanter kit for today's times. Not EVERYTHING here is skill shots. Not EVERYTHING is targeted. There's a strong mix of reliable moves and moves with strong payout for landing, given their variance. You could fit Taric's kit here...even though he's mainly a Warden with enchanter bits, and it'd basically add up to the same conclusion.

That's the point being made here. Problem enchanters have an issue where the only feasible counter-play is "kill them", rather than "do a thing to get around that thing". I'm not saying every enchanter has to have skill shots on every button. I'm saying that you can't have a kit be functional and healthy in today's LoL when it's so heavily set on reactive, guaranteed output. There needs to be some shit to play around when you're alive.

22 Comments

Mens Hair Club1 votes

supps have had most anyone who can threaten them and their carries (that's not a ranged AD of course) given lots of delays and unreliability

so it stands to reason they as the strongest counter to these champs should follow the same path

speaking of counterplay juggernauts have too much

chipndip11 votes

You gotta reword this post, man. I can't make heads or tails of it.

Also, are you Big Lincoln?

Mens Hair Club1 votes

bruisers assassins have gotten delayed spells so people can react to them. these supports continue to have instant shields and instant peeling despite hardly having a need for it now. it makes it very one sided in terms of interaction

ranged ADs are very low on counterplay though

and i can neither confirm nor deny this allegation

chipndip11 votes

Ah, that's a bit better:

  • I think shields and stuff are generally fine, but you can't wrap up every enchanter's play style behind them. I said something about this when they first rolled out heal/shield power. If you do this, it puts too much emphasis on one button for the entire class of champions, rather than actually utilizing their entire kits. However, it's possible to have heal/shield power as a stat without overdosing on it by simply redesigning the kits its applied to.

  • I imagine you got banned off the boards on your main account somehow...

Mens Hair Club1 votes

I would rather just see shields and heals work off a strong base value rather than scaling. it becomes messy to make a lot of champions designed to operate without gold and then give them some very good scaling power.

and this is not an admission that I am who you say I am, because I may not be him or her

Kloqdq1 votes

It's him.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

I can neither confirm nor deny these allegations

Kloqdq1 votes
  • Revert Sej
  • Juggs are weak
  • Buff Juggs
  • Something something Illaoi
  • Fighters need buffs
  • Tanks need nerfs

Sounds like Big Lincoln to me.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

ah nice try but I talk about volibear mostly

so ah, hehe... check and mate, buddy.

Kloqdq1 votes

Too similar to ignore. I though your posts were too similar.

Hellioning1 votes

You can wait out the shield, you can wait for Lulu to use her W or E offensively before going in...

How is 'wait it out' not acceptable counterplay?

I don't try to fight a Jax, Trundle, or Illaoi with ult up. Same with Lulu; if she blows ult, back out if you don't think you can eat through the extra health.

And 'Sona always gets full use out of her abilities' is just plain wrong. So much of their benefit is tied to the auras that positioning is crucial. You don't get full benefit out of her W if you don't shield anyone; it's very mana inefficient healing and can't be targetted.

chipndip13 votes

Here's the thing:

"Waiting something out" is fine, but not when it's done in excess, if you bothered to read the conclusion of the post. For Nami's E, you can wait out the E before trading so you don't take bonus damage from enemy AAs and get slowed. For OTHER parts of her kit, you can actually dodge them.

In Lulu's case, you wait out the E, then the R, then the W. Like, what? So Lulu's "counter-play" is to "wait it out" on almost her entire kit? Not to mention that, with cdr, that shield's up time is gonna be massive by mid to late game.

As for Sona, due to the cdr aspect of her ult, Sona's up-time has been drastically improved. By the time she's finished Ardent/Athene's/Oasis/Tear, basically anything that anyone brings up about these weak "positioning counter-points" is thrown out the window. Riot's mini-rework made Sona significantly dumber to play. You just stack items and scale into a team fighting monster. Before you bring up "But the pros do-" it's because Sona needs items, and those guys don't play in a way that Sona can grab coins to get items. If she could, she'd be bonkers.

Hellioning1 votes

If Lulu is staggering her spells, then she's going to be significantly weaker, and if she's not staggering her spells, then she's got a fairly large window of vulnerability. Yeah, that shield has a way too long duration, but her ult is an ult. Plus, if she uses her W offensively, she can't use it defensively.

Sona's mini-rework made her significantly harder to play, what? The only thing that really changed was that the permanent auras were changed into non-permanent auras with significantly smaller range. Buying Ardent's/Athene's/Oasis/Tear does nothing to change the fact that if she doesn't get a shield off on at least one other person, it's a mana inefficient spell.

(and pre-emptively going 'the pro's dont count!' is a really shitty way to deny criticism, you know.)

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

If Lulu is staggering her spells, then she's going to be significantly weaker, and if she's not staggering her spells, then she's got a fairly large window of vulnerability. Yeah, that shield has a way too long duration, but her ult is an ult. Plus, if she uses her W offensively, she can't use it defensively.

You're looking at this the wrong way: Lulu is a defensive champion. In team fights, she isn't using her W on offense. She's using it to stuff someone else's offense.

If I'm a smart support player, and I identify the enemies on the opposing team that are actively diving my adc/apc of interest, I know exactly how to react when they get in my range as Lulu...or whichever. Thing is, for THAT GUY, that guy has no answer to my initial interaction with him. If I E my ally, it's full value. If I ult them, full value. W the enemy? Full value. This is why it's obnoxious when Lulu's strong. There's nothing to work with. She does her thing and you die by it.

Meanwhile, for Nami, if I see her in range, I can attempt to dodge her bubble. I can attempt to dodge her ult. I can't do much about her W and E, but there's key parts of her interaction with me that I can work with, hopefully to my advantage. That's the difference.

Sona's mini-rework made her significantly harder to play, what?

No it didn't. It made her simpler. Slightly weaker early, but straight up ridiculous in shield power later. Only thing that truly ropes her in is mana, but if you buy a tear, that's not a problem, either.

Riot specifically said in those patch notes that they were looking to solve Sona's game play issues by just making her spam more. This was influenced by the fact that a lot of people were spamming the Rioter responsible for the mini-rework with "I want Sona to play like URF" comments. We ended up with this rework. Made her objectively...about the same as before, but when enchanter itemization started getting worked with, she started becoming better until we got what we currently have.

The only thing that really changed was that the permanent auras were changed into non-permanent auras with significantly smaller range.

...wrong rework. The mini-rework, not the game play update. I wasn't here for her original kit.

Buying Ardent's/Athene's/Oasis/Tear does nothing to change the fact that if she doesn't get a shield off on at least one other person, it's a mana inefficient spell.

A mana inefficient cast of a spell with basically no consequence due to her ever decreasing cds and her ever increasing mana pool.

(and pre-emptively going 'the pro's dont count!' is a really shitty way to deny criticism, you know.)

That was just in case you threw it in there. Also, that was short for "The pros don't play her", not "The pros don't count".

LankPants1 votes

Before you bring up "But the pros do-" it's because Sona needs items, and those guys don't play in a way that Sona can grab coins to get items. If she could, she'd be bonkers.

I think it's more that you don't really get anything extra out of putting extra skill into her. Once you reach a certain skill level she just becomes worse than other options like Nami who actually scales up with your skill.

chipndip11 votes

Well, that's a part of it, yes.

NekoniClaws1 votes

I tried to post on your last one but my internet was misbehaving.

It's not that I disagree, but I did want to point out that 3/4 of the enchanters you listed first time were poke supports (raka, sona, lulu)- they spend early lane with spammable damage abilities and don't sit idle - but in order to be balanced they must lose efficiency in damage as the game progresses - there's no reason for them to approach the enemy team risk/gains wise come teamfights. If you gave those guys a catcher ability like Nami they'd be busted.

Having said that Riot is looking into the interactive-enchanter type with Bard and Rakan and it's pretty successful, so it can work, it just seems very hard to pull of, and I have to point out people generally build those two as tank or AP supports so it's not a linear comparisson.

chipndip11 votes
  • Bard and Rakan are catchers. Then again, catchers are generally better designed supports.

  • It's fine that enchanters don't do a ton of damage later in the game. I'm talking about play patterns. Their play patterns are one-note and leave little for player interaction outside of "do MORE damage or this guy's gonna live" with the occasional hard cc.

NekoniClaws1 votes

Honestly in my mind it's a conundrum - Using Lulu as an example, if you change polymorph to a skillshot, diver/assassin players will be happy and she'll have more skill expression lategame but then we have to compensate for her lost power somewhere else. Higher damage or harder CC on the Q and she'll get oppressive in lane -possibly ending up mid again - more power on the shield and it's just the same problem as polymorph is (point and click)- more power to the ult? heeelll no -- I'm stumped as to what to do outside of completely reworking her into a more modern support design. Maybe they can test these things in-house or on PBE though and we can see what happens, but I think it needs a real genius revelation to improve these champions.

AirKingNeo1 votes

You make some of the best posts.

BobaFlautist1 votes

The other thing is that a lot of their "unreliability" basically vanishes if you're approaching them. Lulu Q, Janna Q, Nami Q/Ult....like many skillshots, they're far easier to land on an opponent that is forced to get in your face and fight you, to the point where if you're a diver your only chance to touch their adc is to A. have a huge mobility advantage (Jarvan with flash up) or B. patiently wait for your allies to expend all the enchanter's abilities for you.

A lot of tank supports have this issue too, Sion Q is fair incarnate - until you desperately need to hit the adc he's placing it under. Alistar needs to get and stick on you to do his job - or just sit on his adc. I could go on.

I don't have any great answers here, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

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