Why Karthus feels hard to play.

Melledoneus··59 votes·10,561 views

Karthus is, lore-wise, one of the coolest characters ever. A man who forced himself through the power of his will to resist the primal urges of the undead and instead rise above all as a lich... he's just in general really awesome. However, when you play as this magnificent, sweet-tongued singer of death... it just doesn't feel right. http://champion.gg/champion/Karthus Sitting at a 47.59% win rate and a 0.75% pick rate, as well as a 0.03% ban rate (Probably a misclick while trying to choose Kalista), even his stats aren't anything to talk about. Sure, he's played in the LCS from time to time, but why is this magnanimously powerful lich of death so hard to play right now?

#1. Karthus doesn't fill a unique enough niche. In general, Karthus is a champion that needs to farm to hit his late game power surge, in which he can shred through teams with his E and his Q spam. However, even Cassiopeia does it better than him, able to be a lane bully and get free stats out of it regardless. Not to mention she can just spam poison fang. Not saying Cassiopeia is broken or whatnot, but it speaks volumes when she does Karthus's job in lane better than he does.

"But Mell, doesn't he have a global ultimate that can kill people?" I am aware of that, yes, that's half the reason I play Karthus. However, his ult is so strictly situational because of how little damage it does early on. You need your opponent to fill 4 requirements to use your ultimate:

  1. Have at least 80-100 HP less than your ultimate's damage
  2. Have pitiful amounts of MR
  3. Not be regenerating health like a madman
  4. Not have an ability or an ally that can shield them from the damage

On top of that, it's a 250 damage ability on a 300 second cooldown. It's unique, but it doesn't really contribute much unless his team deliberately sets up kills for him. Not to mention that if you Q during your passive form and still have enough time after the cast, you cannot ultimate until after the Q detonates. Leaving you limited time to ult. In general, it's a powerful ability on paper and a terrible ability in practice.

#2. Karthus has one of the most powerful yet difficult spells to utilize properly. Karthus's Q, Lay Waste, is the staple of his laning phase. Opponents will get tired of hearing the sound effect soon enough because of how much Karthus uses this to both farm and trade. However, both are effected because of how long it takes Defile to actually detonate. Avid players of Karthus would also notice that if it hits a single target, the Q is delayed by a fraction of a second. I'm not exactly sure if the damage goes off on time or not, but let's just assume it does and move on.

Defile never gains anything but a slight CD reduction and damage as you level it up. It would be a nice buff, since they decided to nerf the only way Karthus can slow down high mobility targets to hit them, if Q got a reduced delay over each level, maybe by .02 seconds or something. 0.5 seconds is way too long for something to detonate when trying to hit a target that can sidestep it with ease. Not to mention that it makes you STOP to cast the ability while you're already pretty darn slow against these assassins and engaging bruisers. With movement speed built into most of the AD items built nowadays, it's no wonder the mobility creep seems to have gotten worse.

#3. Karthus doesn't counter anyone, and cannot really carry games by himself. Karthus doesn't hard counter anybody. You'll see matchups like Talon VS Leblanc where Leblanc is at a disadvantage, but when somebody says that Karthus counters another champion, it means that he can actually farm in a lane against them. And I still don't get how he counters Leblanc, Faker.

As for not being able to carry games, he relies on his team extensively to help him survive and lock down targets for him to burst them down. Karthus has some of the most unreliable cast times in the game, having to wait a good 1.5-2 seconds just to get a good Q spam going. In general, Karthus relies on his team a lot, and that's okay and all, but the reason WHY he feels hard to play and overall pretty bad is because he cannot single-handedly carry a game like a Jax or an Ahri.


In general, these are the reasons why Karthus feels bad to play at the moment. Feel free to comment, and let me know what Karthus build you enjoy playing! And here's a poll for the hell of it.

96 Comments

Ralanr22 votes

I enjoy the death pope, and I think you're right in that he doesn't hard counter anyone. Though (like Sion) this isn't bad since it theoretically means he can work in any match up.

Sadly his weaknesses are becoming more painful as the mid lane meta shifts to more reflex and "skilled" plays by champions like Zed, Ahri, Leblanc, etc. Immobile mages don't have as many tools, nor do they have more damage to counter this disadvantage.

I was honestly surprised when I didn't see Karthus on the Mage update roster. But I'm not sure what they could do for him that would be a slight rework rather than outright buffing him.

Maybe have his ult reset on kills? Or his passive last longer based on friendly and enemy deaths near him? Give him an untargetablilty mechanic with his E?

Don't know.

WarlockLaw22 votes

Having his ult reset on kills would be grossly overpowered, as he could win his team a teamfight that started off as 4v5 while Karthus is sitting in the base. I don't think they could balance him that way any better than if you gave an ult reset to Veigar.

He just needs some quality of life buffs and a revert to that stupid nerf attributed to deathfire touch.

kile14719 votes

Maybe not a full reset but a partial one. Maybe 1/5 of the cooldown is refunded per kill with his ult. Get a pentakill? Full ult reset.

yoniame5 votes

his w definitely needs change, 100mana for 1 sec (non stacking) slow and mr reduct is too wastefull, making it basically impossible to really punish anyone for faling their combo, especially since his ulti is 150 mana

EMeta2 votes

Add an effect that happens when it's directly cast on someone, like a .1 second silence.

Alternatively, add a dash stop to it after it's been down for a second--not a reactionary move like Poppy's, but something that can be used to set up sieges.

blackcat13001 votes

and give it am area around it that make it so that if you would dash flash tp ect, in the area you get stuck in the wall and stunned for .75-1 second.

Know vs zed and Leblanc if the dash under your turret and you had wall up they get stunned under the turret.

No cheeky Zed ult with free ecape now they have to work around the 18 second cooldown witch seems more then fair. It also can make I have flash up the reason why they died.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

But the dream! Spawn Karthus!

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

Karthus counters Heimer so hard it hurts.

Melledoneus8 votes

Until you realize that Heimerdinger can stun Karthus out of his range.

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

Doesn't matter. You just pop his turrets out of their range and deny him his strength of non stop push.

Big Lincoln7 votes

had a heimer rush banner against me when I was playing Karthus

quickly realize that you won't be doing much against him at that point

alfavhunter7 votes

{quoted}

I enjoy the death pope, and I think you're right in that he doesn't hard counter anyone. Though (like Sion) this isn't bad since it theoretically means he can work in any match up.

Sadly his weaknesses are becoming more painful as the mid lane meta shifts to more reflex and "skilled" plays by champions like Zed, Ahri, Leblanc, etc. Immobile mages don't have as many tools, nor do they have more damage to counter this disadvantage.

I was honestly surprised when I didn't see Karthus on the Mage update roster. But I'm not sure what they could do for him that would be a slight rework rather than outright buffing him.

Maybe have his ult reset on kills? Or his passive last longer based on friendly and enemy deaths near him? Give him an untargetablilty mechanic with his E?

Don't know.

If Karthis R kills a target all surviving targets feel the touch of death, stunning them for .5 seconds per target killed (max stun is 2 seconds on a 4 kill one survivor scenario)

Alternatively they could put his slow mechanic onto his defile and change the wall spell entirely

My idea is this

For his new spell Deaths embrace Passive when Karthis kills a target he gains 25 MS for 2 seconds, if it is an enemy champion he gains 4 times this amount (100)

Active Karthis embraces death taking 8/6/4/2/0% of his current health as damage to restore 10% of his missing mana and make his next Q instant cast and act as if it only struck one target for all targets hit

blackcat13001 votes

Or their is simple easy just make Q deal more damage to champs so single target hits actually feel satisfying and you have a true late game monster that must be focused down and run from. Q deals triple damage not double. when my Q's are only dealing 600 and my adc is dealing 750 and the enemy mage can deal 800+ burst damage then my sustaine damge is not good enough Caitlyn 1500 damage 100% crit. vs 840 single target Q. Yah my sustain damage is crap in comparison.

NOW

Lay Waste Cost: 20/26/32/38/44 Mana Range: 875 Karthus unleashes a delayed blast at a location, dealing damage to nearby enemies. Creates a delayed blast at Karthus' cursor position. After 0.5 seconds, deals 40/60/80/100/120 (+30% Ability Power) magic damage to each nearby enemy, this deals double damage if it hits only a single unit.

Patched

40/60/80/100/120 (+30% Ability Power) aoe minions

80/120/160/200/240 (+60% Ability Power) single minion and aoe to champs / large jungle mobs

120/180/240/300/360 (+90% Ability Power) single target champion and large jungle mobs.

Fat Bastard GOD1 votes

What about range on his Q? Make him a long range Mage so he can keep his distance in fights/lane. He won't have to sucicide dive into fights. Or what about some change to make him a jungler again? I've always wanted to play him jungle, since his kit looks so delicious for it, but he seems too weak to do so. Just a suggestion.

blackcat13001 votes

If you increase his range then you just get bullied and Riot says that this is bad for counter play.

Witch is why I say give him more damage.

charcharmunro17 votes

Karthus' "niche", I think, is "highest DPS champion in the game". He's consistently well and truly the top of damage dealt in a game provided he's not totally shut out of a game... The problem is, he's far too easily shut out... Even VLAD can beat some people in lane, and he's probably the most comparable character to Karthus in terms of how he works. And ever since they decided to... For SOME arbitrary reason, gut his W, he has basically no defensive options in lane now.

morris18 votes

Agreed, and may Vladimir fall behind in lane, his ult still gives his teammates 12% free damage, he has reliable escapes in teamfights and can sustain around the outskirts of the fight for a long time.

charcharmunro7 votes

And at least he can safely split-push and farm himself up, Karthus is too squishy and has no escapes to do so.

blackcat13001 votes

nope your wrong. Caitlyn max crit 1500 damage plus a fster rate of damage then Karthus with life steel sustain.

Her attack speed is faster then his Q so he lost to her and many others in terms of dps.

full ap Kayle deals more dps damage. Yah the ult scews the damage. He is actually dealing. I have seen games ware I have been way over shadowed in damage as Karthus. Plus seance you can heal through Q's with health post that means you can take more damage then the Karthus that just gets 100-0.

charcharmunro1 votes

Cait is single-target. Karthus is AoE. His E starts to shred teams when he's at close to full build. His ult only somewhat augments his damage numbers, it's about... Between 800-odd and about 3000 damage every few minutes. Not really that big a deal.

blackcat13001 votes

No Karthus is a single target not aoe his He foces hime to get up close so you can kill him Cait has and Escape ability.

Plus his Q the his main and only damage dealing ability witch makes him a dps damage dealer is 120 with 35% ap. Witch is why aoe Karthus always tries to hit single targets his damage is bad.

The big deal is if he is dps damage it should be equal or better then and adc other wise what people do is play assassins.

Plus Karthus can't single handedly win game likeAkali MasterYi Katarina Zed Leblanc Fiora Irelia Graves Tryndamere XinZhao Yasuo Diana

Once they get feed their high mobility and damage lets them take over game. Karthus is slow and just get kitted and team ganked with his lack of mobility and burst damage.

Jacknife10 votes

As much as I would really like to play Karthus, his kit has serious flaws. He kind of falls in line with the term "AOE burst mage" but the big problem is he has to get super close to get the maximum effect of his kit. At least with Annie or Vel'Koz they have utility (CC) to give them a big enough window to get their damage off. Karthus is literally just running into the enemy team, do as much damage as possible, die, do as much damage as possible for 3 more seconds, ult, hope for 1+ kills. Currently, Karthus either needs some kind of big defensive steroid to keep the damage going, or it needs to be much more rewarding to be turned into a ghost.

yoniame2 votes

his w would need a rework, like if he w-s someone and they stay in his e for more than 2 second they get rooted, or some other easy to avoid form of cc. Or just reduce cd, mana cost, and give it different shaped aoe.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Just make his W move able around him at the radius of his E for the duration. Yeah it loses a bit of range, but it makes it more practical and punishes that Alistar for headbutting you out of the fight since he is now guaranteed to get hit by W if it is up.

Aurelion Sol proves this is possible to tech and it would at least be better than the current version.

Serika Zero7 votes

The reason Khartus "feels so hard to play". Its because you must hit your Q, multiple times, on the enemy. And that's hard to do. Yes, Ahri could switch the tide of a battle with one or two charms. But you are Khartus, you NEED to hit 80-99% of your Qs if you want to have an impact. And that's hard.

MKDkilla7 votes

Problems with Karthus:

Q: It feels useless in teamfights. Most ADCs will have boots + item 3046 item 3087 and will be nearly impossible to hit. Bruisers have stuff like item 3742, assassins have a crapton of mobility, and tanks don't even care about you. And it's damage is garbage if it hits more than one person.

W: The slow nerf was not needed at all. Even harder to land Q after it.

E: Janna Alistar Morgana are all meta and can either push you out of their team or lock you down and make your E useless.

R: Signature move. But holy shit, that CD + mana cost, especially early, makes Galio's ult look like it has the CD of Yasuo's E.

blackcat13001 votes

triple damage Q buff to single target champs and large mobs

and double aoe damage. what do you think now we have some damage and it want make his laning faze any better.

Also pleas riot fix the wall pleas. Revert it back to season 2 no one will even care.

9L9L9L9L9L9L9L6 votes

iirc During the preseason, Karthus was picked a lot because the Deathfire Touch mastery was just so good on him until Riot nerfed his wall and Karthus falls into obscurity for that particular reason.

Big Lincoln9 votes

nobody played karthus

and people still picked thunderlords more on him back then

Voluug134 votes

Yeah Rito basically kneejerked over nothing.

blackcat13001 votes

No they nerfed his wall because it was annoying not joking that was their reason.

Then they nerfed Death fire Touch mastery and buffed Thunder Lords.

They also nefed Swains E, and Q along with Singed's poison. Because of Death Fire touch and DFT still got nerfed.

2 Weezy Baby4 votes

TLDR he feels hard to play because he's a hard champ to master.

Melledoneus7 votes

That, and the mobility most mid laners have downright makes his Q impossible to land.

2 Weezy Baby1 votes

{quoted}

That, and the mobility most mid laners have downright makes his Q impossible to land.

This is where skill comes into play.

TheySeeMeWardin5 votes

I call bull shit. You cannot predict where a champ will be in .5 seconds after there is a huge indicator to leave the area where defile goes off. You land it if you have some other cc, if they are minion blocked, or if your opponent is a complete idiot.

I love Karthus to death.... no pun intended, but he is weak at the moment.

Catastrop4 votes

{quoted}

Karthus's Q, Defile

Lay Waste* I'm sorry this was bothering me too much to not comment on it.

Honestly though, I think he's really strong but the meta just isn't allowing it with all the mobile champions running rampant in mid.

Melledoneus2 votes

Whoops. Nice catch, I'll fix that right now.

RipReviveFkRito4 votes

Bring revive back item 3070 Karthus

Fair Champion3 votes

As a Karthus main, I feel obligated to give my take on the "Karthus has issues" situation.

You're right - Karthus counters no one (perhaps with the exception of Heimerdinger). He lanes well against long-range immobile mages, but that's about it. On the other hand, he is countered by a plethora of champions. Kassadin comes to mind as a champion that can demolish you at any point in the game. Aside from him, there are other champions that lane well against him - Yasuo, Fizz, LeBalanced, and Zed are a few examples that come to mind. However, I don't really see this as an issue. Yes, he won't be getting solo kills in lane (assuming that your lane opponent has a brain), but this isn't an issue. He can pick off kills from skirmishes in other lanes with your ultimate (assuming that you can use it correctly). Furthermore, a good Karthus won't get outfarmed by his enemy, assuming it isn't a hard counter to him. He can farm easily from a distance, and is great at either pushing the lane to their turret or freezing the lane at his own turret. Furthermore, he can set up for ganks easily. As such, he isn't great to blind pick into a lane that he can get coounterpicked by, but he has a solid lane presence overall. Plus, if your lane opponent is low mobility, you can be a pretty strong lane bully.

His Q time is weird sometimes, I agree, and perhaps that could be changed to a more consistent time. I strongly agree on that aspect. The slight delay that the Q sometimes brings is rather annoying. However, I don't feel like the .5 second detonate time is an issue... or at least it wouldn't be if he had a way to slow his opponents down. This is why the Wall nerf needs to be reverted. The main point of the wall is so that Karthus can land repeated Qs on his opponent. With the current slow on the wall, it isn't long enough for him to hit a Q. He needs a longer Wall slow so that he can hit that first Rylai's-empowered Q and go to town on his opponents. If its detonation time is changed to .2 seconds instead, I feel like this would make Karthus wayyyy too good at DPS.

I think that his ultimate's cooldown is fine, actually. Obviously you shouldn't be running CDR items on Karthus, as they tend to be outclassed by items like ROA, Rylai's, and Seraph's. However, taking scaling CDR glyphs solves this problem. You don't really need armor or MR glyphs, as Karthus doesn't really need too many resistances (after all, one of the main reasons to play him is to die in a teamfight).

What I DO think Karthus has issues with is the current state of the meta. With the AP itemization nerfs, the AD itemization buffs (seriously, screw Maw) and the shorter game times, Karthus finds it harder to reach his late game prime. If there's an issue with Karthus, it's the fact that the meta simply isn't kind to him right now. As such, with the exception of the fact that the wall slow MUST be reverted, I don't see too many issues. Just wait for the immobile mage update - I'm sure that the deathsinger will be much more useful at that point.

KirbyCake3 votes

MR items too strong, it doesn't even feel like hes doing a lot of damage.

Q impossible to land, w nerf makes it practically unusable.

Beldori3 votes

Have his wall stop dashes

Ralantha3 votes

Sometimes I feel like immobile mages are just supports in disguise.

TendajiX2 votes

His Q needs to have a range indicator on smart cast. Even with the option selected, you can't see the range or targeting.

CaveJohnson1232 votes

As a Karthus Main I agree fully with you... When I began playing LoL and I saw him, I instantly liked him, his lore, his design, his kit (ult^^) One should think the harbinger of death is incredibly powerful but ingame he doesn't lives up to this hype; most of the time he just feels too weak... Honestly I don't unterstand why Riot thinks that his ,,niche" is something special, which is why he doesn't get a rework. I mean it almost feels, as if Riot forgot about him; he doesn't gets a rework, he doesn't gets a skin... the only thing he got in the last time is a nerf... and the new splash arts (yay -.-) I don't even understand, why they nerfed his only type of cc... that makes it even more ridiculous.

D3m37r12 votes

Karthus win rate was over 50% before the wall nerf. I really don't know why they bothered to nerf it since it's the only way to hit someone that isn't afk with his Q

TheOvermind1 votes

However, even Cassiopeia does it better than him

I'm sorry does Cassiopoia get to keep shredding everyone after death with Aoe and a couple of Qs for another 7 seconds and then finish it off with a Massive Nuke that hits everyone ? i dont think so. all cass will do is get maybe a 3 man ult cast her 2 poisons a couple fangs and then explode. The crown for the role of the DPS mage goes to Karthus hands down.

Melledoneus4 votes

Does Cassiopeia have to wait a .5 seconds to deal damage that might not even go off? Does she have to deal with people insta-deleting her because her only form of CC was nerfed to hell? Does Cassiopeia have to have 5 or 6 items to actually start becoming a threat?

You're making Karthus seem so broken although he can't even do anything in team fights late game with all the CC and assassins going around. He can't even lane with all the thunderlords and the current state of turrets. All of his abilities have terrible AP ratios, and his entire kit, especially his ultimate, can be countered by a 1300 gold item all game. At least Cassiopeia has scaling stats and gets an AoE stun. And she's getting fixed.

The current state of Karthus just proves the theory that Riot hates him.

Jorencice1 votes

His farming ability has one of the longest ranges in the game.

Especially considering it's fire and forget.

Who are you having trouble laning against?

Karthus eats assassians alive. They dive you press zhonyas and they WILL die before you if they have equals items.

Melledoneus4 votes

Because Karthus can farm up 3300 gold before an assassin can get 1300.

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