Quit saying assassins aren't meant to win 1v2

y0r1ck·May 2, 2018·4 votes·1,717 views

I've never seen one assassin main saying they should win 1v2. Nobody says that shit. Stop trying to act like assassin mains are braindread morons who want to win while outnumbered. Fuck your shit circlejerk you entitled bitch ass support mains. Inb4 you say I'm a salty braindead assassin main, I ONE TRICK SUPPORT.

The argument I ACTUALLY see from assassin mains: Supports are too good at their jobs, or adcs burst nearly as fast as assassins. Making it too hard to wait out support skills because supports have nearly 0 downtime.

The suggestions I ACTUALLY see from assassins:

Nerf shield duration.
Allow shields to decay.
Decrease adc burst.
Buff assassin kits and delete lethality/ rework duskblade.

Thank you and shut up about assassin mains wanting to 1v2.

33 Comments

chipndip1May 2, 201811 votes

Here's the thing: I made a post concerning assassins and supports. Guess what I saw a lot of? Assassin players saying they should be able to 1v2.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20182 votes

Show me, please. I've never seen any assassin main say that. So if you show me I'll fix my post.

Ok I read a little bit into that thread about you saying assassins shouldn't be able to 1v2. I saw a few people saying assassins should have some room to outplay 1v2, but I didn't see anyone saying assassins should win a 1v2 vs adc and supp.

chipndip1May 2, 20181 votes

Don't forget to check the Reddit version of the post.

Still: Assassins already have room to jump in and take out targets in a 1v2 scenario if their burst is high enough or if they outplay well enough. To still ask for more is pretty much asking for a freebie, which they're getting come mid season with that free crit on top of Duskblade's passive.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

No. You're making a claim that a lot of assassin mains think they should win a 1v2, right? So YOU back it up. Tell me how many "a lot" is, and show me that they're saying this. I don't mean to be dismissive or rude, but I don't accept what other people say without proof, if it's against my observations.

Besides I hardly use Reddit, can you link the post or enough comments to show what you mean by "a lot"?

I disagree. I think assassins always lose when they go in 1v2 against meta adcs and supports. Barring MASSIVE LCS BIG SCREEN PLAYS, I never see assassins 1v2 and come out ahead if they went in even. Speaking as a support one trick(who doesn't even play meta supports), I think it's too easy for supports and adcs to defend themselves. Obviously, our opinions differ here so let's agree to disagree on this point for now.

chipndip1May 2, 20181 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8flc59/i_made_a_thread_about_assassins_vs_supports_on/?limit=500

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Thanks for linking the post, I skimmed and didn't see a lot of assassin mains saying they should be able to reliably 1v2 adc and support from even footing. But I'm not reading 200+ comments just to prove you wrong. Prove yourself right by directly linking a lot of comments from assassin mains who are saying they want to reliably 1v2 the support and adc. While you're at it, I'd very very much appreciate it if you could tell me how many people is "a lot." 10? 5? 300?

chipndip1May 3, 20181 votes

...BOI

What type of ANYONE should demand "even footing" in a fucking 1v2? Can you stop?

y0r1ckMay 3, 20181 votes

That's exactly what I'm saying. Nobody wants assassins to be able to 1v2 from even footing. Let's collectively stop saying that assassin mains want to be able to 1v2 from even footing. I'm glad we see eye to eye on this.

chipndip1May 3, 20181 votes

That's literally what both those links were full of. "I shouldn't be able to easily win, BUUUUUUUT..."

That was all over BOTH those links. Seriously stop.

y0r1ckMay 3, 20181 votes

Then please directly link a lot of comments from assassin mains saying they should be able to 1v2 reliably or from even footing. I'm sorry... I just don't see any

Edge of DaybreakMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: I made a post concerning assassins and supports. Guess what I saw a lot of? Assassin players saying they should be able to 1v2.

Okay so I saw what you said and I knew it wasn't true because this is the Gameplay boards this has for the most part never been true Assassin players don't really post here much unless to aquire downvotes with few replies and ask for reverts and while the state of gameplay does depress me a little that's not the goal of this reply. I am not saying you are a liar you clearly give a shit about what you post it's closer to misguided by all of the anti assassin player propaganda that is constantly posted here. I went through all 203 comments and only 3 people actually said yes they should be able to do so. Of those 3 only one of them is an assassin player and he's on a smurf. You actually had more assassin players agree with you and I myself agree with you too they should not be able to freely 1v2.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=bioodwing The smurf

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=PRINCEBLUMPKIN

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=DOOZKU

The point that actual assassin players keep trying to say is that the vast majority of us don't actually claim this at all. We are reasonable people we don't see an adc and support and go okay this should be free. We know that despite being insanely fed we can still lose because it's a 1v2.

We want a more even playing field in the effectiveness of supports at stopping us vs us actually being able to make our gold matter.

Some of the points in your thread that I wanna bring up. Not all supports are lulu and janna. Yes they do get blamed for the problems of assassins a lot but when I see supports I think of Rakan, Blitz, tahm kench god damn tahm kench, braum, thresh nautilus and nami as being the supports to essentially stop you in a quick fashion. However their popularity is not equal. Players talk about janna and lulu because most people pick them due to them having a lot of effect with little effort needed No one is really going to complain about someone they hardly see. You cant outplay most of what they do while the others give you a lot of options. Tahm may remove the adc but at the same time they are also not able to fight while he protects them. Janna and lulu simply press a button or 2 and you are instantly dealt with. I can do something about all 4 of threshes abilities but someone like say nautilus pressing R oh me just means im SOL. It does not escape me that some of these are tanks however they are played enough in the support role that I feel they are worth mentioning.

Assassins in solo queue are dumb as fuck atm but it's mostly based on skill level as you go up in skill levels they just kinda vanish because coordinated players know how easy it is to stop them. Sure their winrates are high but that's mostly do to lower pickrates and more dedicated one tricks. Being an assassin player that also plays support from time to time purely so that I can learn my enemy I've seen both sides a lot and I do think that they need some counterplay. You can set an assassin too far behind to be relevant but a support kits power isn't going to change much based on how much gold they have. An 0/16 leblanc for example isn't a real threat but a 0/16 lulu can still massively affect the game. I know both of those cases are extremes but I think my point is easy to get.

Change targets. I have seen this from so many people so I am going to give a similar response. Changing targets does not change the status quo at all. Nothing stops the support from protecting whomever they please including themselves and in most cases it's not about who the assassin targets as much as how fast the support points and clicks on you or your target. I've been playing this role for a few years and I have to always assume the moment I appear one of more of these is going to happen: My damage is being cut by 40%, whoever I chose to target is either going to gain a massive amount of temporary hp or become untargetable or I am going to be cc'ed with most of these being instant and most assassins cannot physically affect the game faster than these things happen. There are cases like rengar where that champion is just stupid to play against but for the most part the delays did their job.

In a 5v5 having to play a class that is usually building squishy for the most part to function and usually being melee range a 1.5 second CC can mean you instantly melt. Waiting for cooldowns did used to be way easier a while ago but now with how much cdr is in the game there simply isnt enough downtime for that especially when your team is essentially playing a 4v5 until you come in.

I apologize if anything comes off as offensive I am not great with words.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Agreed. I always support and even I can see that more non-assassin players are saying "assassins want to 1v2," than assassin players who want to 1v2. It's just a stupid circlejerk at this point, probably because people hate how it feels to lose to an assassin.

IamURHEROMay 3, 20183 votes

Riot intentionally put point and click skill to counter mobility champions aka assassins. If we don't have that assassins will be the top class.

Lulu and Janna are Enchanters and Riot definition of Enchanters is: Enchanters focus on amplifying their allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. Enchanters themselves are often quite fragile and bring relatively low damage to the table, meaning they really only shine when grouped together with others. All enchanters have is to be able to protect their allies through cc and buff. Nerfing that will destroy lulu and janna. They dont have the damage, they are fragile, and they can never fight by them self and they always have to be next to a teammates.

Each champion's kits are strong against others champions kits or weak against others. Lulu and Janna kits are intentionally strong against assassins kit. They have always been strong against them compare to other support kit. Lulu and Janna are weak against battle mage who can do strong consistent damage and catchers, once get caught usually the death of us. Nerfing lulu and Janna would just make assassins insanely strong class in the game.

Edge of DaybreakMay 3, 20181 votes

I understand that point and click is a necessary evil however I will present this. Thresh at one point was the best support with around 40% pickrate and a decent winrate and he has 0 ways to affect the enemy team that are point and click. Assassins were not the top class at that time. Despite the fact that the top support had all skillshots. There are a few supports where their main impact comes from skillshots.

Opinions about the later half of the post.

Lulu and janna are Great at suppressing assassin which is fine. However ease of use for how incredibly well they can do this to multiple champions at once is a tad much imo. They don't just have a kit for stopping assassins they essentially can stop everything short of being chain cc'd themselves.

Assassins are already strong in Solo Queue almost too strong but currently riot wants them to be decent in pro again because as you go up in skill they plummet in overall effectiveness to the point they have almost completely vanished from pro play. Their options are going to be either gutting mage waveclear, reducing how strong supports are in general, or stay on the current path of hard buffing assassins to the point they stomp solo queue but because the core issues they have in pro cannot be solved via damage it wont change a thing there.

saltranMay 3, 20181 votes

Thresh was a CertainT TM champ overloaded with tools and also high numbers, Rito was literally nerfing his numbers for more than a whole season since he was released in order to balance him. So I wouldn't want more supps like Thresh

Metal JannaMay 2, 20182 votes

Being able to 1v2 and actually get a kill is exactly what they want. Reliably. The problem is, if assassins are strong enough to kill the adc right through the support's kit, then their kill can easily turn into a double. When the reward for success is not one but two kills then the risk of failure should be high. It should absolutely be possible, but very risky, to roam the botlane duo and kill them both.

Do you midlaners actually enjoy the meta where your opponent can dissapear for 20 seconds, pick up a double, and be on his way back to lane ahead of you even though you didn't give up one kill? I wouldn't enjoy that. You buff midlaners' ability to dive the botlane duo and you buff the roam meta.

Personally, i'd like to see the roams reduced, not increased. Let the skill of the players in the lane determine the fate of the lane. With exception made for the jungler of course.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Show me an assassin main saying that reliably winning a 1v2 is exactly what they want. I haven't seen anyone saying that's what they want, so I'll fix the main post if you show me I'm wrong.

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20182 votes

Saying supports are to good at their job when ti comes to stopping assassins from killing squishies is a lot like saying Assassins are too good at their job when it comes to killing squishies.

That is to say, generally, Assassins interpret "too good" as, even being able to stop me. And i say this because i have been guilty of it, lol.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

I'm not sure what you're saying. I understand the first paragraph, but the second has me confused.

Are you saying most assassin mains think that supports are too good when supports stop assassins 100% of the time?

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20181 votes

I'm so excited for the days of Season 3 when Assassins ran a train on League [slayer-jinx-unamused]

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Not gonna lie, I was a total noob back then and I loved being able to stack black cleavers and build atmogs on garen. Such an easy build path ^_^

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20181 votes

Lol ya, might as well bring back DFG so the AP assassins can get in on the fun.

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

I'd be down for a rotating legacy game mode. Old items added back in on summoners rift, howling abyss, twisted treeline.

Edge of DaybreakMay 2, 20181 votes

Misread the title but you could phrase this better

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Ok, how? Oh I admit the tone is rude, but if there's a way to be more clear do tell please.

Dead flag bluesMay 2, 20181 votes

Shields shouldn't ever have near 100% uptime (105% uptime for Lulu )

Why don't they add skill expression to them ? Shorter duration, but stronger shields, I wouldn't be against. Look at Sivir Fiora Nocturne they all have to react to dodge something, why should Janna Lulu simply think "oh this guy might come, just press E"

y0r1ckMay 2, 20181 votes

Idk why. I'm 100% sure support shields are on riot's radar. Maybe they just aren't happy with any of the alternatives they've considered so far.

The Sword SaintMay 3, 20181 votes

If an assassin sees a support next to an adc, they assassin doesn't have an opening. They shouldn't be able to force a kill on either one of them in that situation without backup, or an ambush that will kill one before they can react at all (such as with cc 100-0 or if they are low hp to begin with).

If it's a teamfight and the assassin waits for the support to blow cooldowns, either the support will even eventually have to use them in order to contribute to the fight or both will end up sitting out creating a 4v4 until one side starts losing - and an assassin that has all their cooldowns to assist in a cleanup is far more dangerous than a support with cooldowns left.

The assassin fantasy of instakilling the enemy carry at the start of a teamfight so that they never get a chance to participate only happens when mega fed or when a huge mistake is made. That's why its an 'LCS big play', if it was a standard thing you could expect every teamfight it wouldn't be a 'big play' it would just be a normal play.

y0r1ckMay 3, 20181 votes

Yes to everything but the last part. LCS BIG PLAYS don't come from mistakes or huge gold advantages. They come from outplays. You tell me what's more exciting. 20/0/0 faker killing jinx with zed while support is mia, or 0/0/0 faker killing 0/0/0 jinx and Janna by dodging tornadoes, baiting traps and shields. Obviously the outplay is more exciting.

But how on earth does zed outplay a 5.5 second long shield when the CD is the same? Throw a single button point and click "nope fuck you" on top. See the point? I'm not saying either is too good or too weak, I'm trying to say introduce some flexibility so there's room to counterplay on both sides.

If it's a teamfight, lulu sits behind the back line and puts a shield on her adc. Let's say the assassin flanks and avoids the front line. Now he's facing lulu/adc. What are his options?

Kill adc
Kill lulu

With option 1, zed has to gap close, qss a polymorph, burst the adc through a shield, redemption, locket, and lulu r.

In option two, zed kills the lulu but has to leave the adc. Since unless he's obscenely fed, he won't do enough damage fast enough to kill both before he dies.

And he needs to do this within 2 to 3 seconds. Even if he flanks perfectly and has qss or a spell shield ready, there are still so many hoops to jump through. It's hard, it should be hard. But that doesn't mean it needs to be THIS hard. Give lulu a fatter shield but make it last less time, now zed has another option: wait out the shield. Now lulu has more skill expression: time the shield. There are more mind games, more LCS BIG PLAYS. Ya feel me?

The Sword SaintMay 3, 20181 votes

I see where you're coming from, but consider this counterpoint for a moment: if an assassin is engaging in a straight up teamfight where the playing field is level, numbers are equal, both sides have their hp, mana, cooldowns, etc... then the assassin is already making a sub optimal choice and not playing into their own win condition either because they aren't playing to their full potential or because the enemy is outplaying them in terms of macro which prevents the assassin from executing their primary specialty - which is making picks on out of position targets through rotation, vision, wave manipulation, objective control, etc. mindgames.

Straight up fights are the home field of your mages, tanks, adcs, and supports. Choosing to take them on straight up is playing into their hand. Fighters and assassins are examples of classes that excel outside of direct teamfights and are generally weaker if forced to participate in them. A fighter would much rather splitpush and duel or run from the people sent to stop them, while an assassin would rather be sitting in a pink warded bush looking to catch someone who stepped slightly away from their team in a key moment.

Maybe supports and support items do need some changes, but personally I don't think that the goal should be to better enable assassins to teamfight against them better through outplays. I'd rather do something like add more items to the game that an assassin can opt into the help them better play to their strengths - like a lethality/magic pen version of banner of command that an assassin can use to help draw an adc into a sidelane to stop the bush while you wait in a bush for them (banner minions have a lot of hp and are magic immune so few champs aside from an adc could realistically clear that minion wave efficiently before it does significant damage to a tower).

y0r1ckMay 3, 20181 votes

Ok, you're saying that by engaging in a teamfight an assassin is already at a disadvantage. Your logic makes sense and you back it up with explanation.

Here's my counterpoint. Assassins don't have the luxury of choosing how to play the game in this meta. Top laners can 1v1 asassins. Junglers have access to red smite and so often they can 1v1 assassins. Mid never has to leave his tower against an assassin. And adc and support are always together. Teamfights are the meta, and assassins can't split vs tanks or camille.

So assassins should have more opportunities to be useful. Either by expanding their role in the mid game, or by expanding opportunities to outplay with superior mechanics.

The Sword SaintMay 3, 20181 votes

Yes, I think we can agree here. It would be better if changes were made to allow assassins more agency in terms of how to approach the match. As the class whose fantasy most emphasizes trickery and cunning, an assassins should always have options other than smashing their face into a brick wall in a side lane (fighters and tanks) or running straight into the battlefield like a regular solider would (teamfights).

Leblancs ult clone from her rework was a neat idea that isn't around anymore. If there was an item with a much smaller cooldown that would deploy a convincing non damaging clone for an assassin to play around with that would give them more options in terms of pulling people out of position or finding a good moment to slip into a teamfight in a less direct way. Splitpushing tools, extra vision control, deception, time delayed escapes (which would allow you to slip more safely away from low damage counter splitpushers like tanks without making you immune to burst damage or getting caught entirely unlless you had wards and were aware of the incoming gank).... any of these things would allow the assassin class to better contribute without turning them into suicide bombers who'se only hope is to out number or out mobility the adc and support at the same time.

y0r1ckMay 3, 20181 votes

Yup thanks for listing some examples, I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to provide more options for counterplay on all sides. I enjoyed debating with you, it was nice to meet someone as reasonable and well articulated as you.