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This week's circle jerk: The mage holocaust!

Malicious Metal··108 votes·4,619 views

Greetings and welcome to today's segment of "Weekly Circlejerk", a (potentially) weekly thread that goes over the spiciest and most talked about topics on the gameplay boards. Today I present you the topic of many heated debates and salty threads: The supposedly "weak" state of Mages.

Over the last week the front-page was flooded with threads lamenting the "horrible" state mages are in and how they've been pushed out of their natural habitat of mid lane by the nefarious archetype known as the common Marksman, often going by the abbreviation ADC for Attack Damage Carry. Apparently this creature has migrated from its nesting spots in the bottom lane and has invaded the middle one, threatening to push out Magic-damage champions out from their natural habitat.

Or so the boards would want you to believe.

According to statistics there are only two AD, Attack Damage, champions in top 15 mid lane champions. https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34016900/Bildschirmfoto2017-10-02um09.26.29.png

Both of which do not fall into the "Marksman" category but are rather Assassins or fighters.

But Winrates aren't everything, so perhaps pick rates would be the more suitable statistic to document AP champions going extinct in mid lane, pushed out but Marksmen.

But even then there's no sign of the supposedly alarming occurrence of Marksmen taking up the place of traditional mages. https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34016899/Bildschirmfoto2017-10-02um09.26.46.png

The most popular mid lane champions are still, in fact, mostly mages with the occasional assassin.

And even then, to conclude this little accumulation of stats, the posterboy for Marksmen going mid, Lucian the Purifier, is sitting at a not so comfortable 43% win rate despite having a somewhat respectable pick rate of 5 % https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34016897/Bildschirmfoto2017-10-02um09.27.22.png

Based on these stats I presented we may deduce that this uproar about Marksmen pushing out traditional mages out of their natural habitat is nothing more than a baseless claim, with Mages still reigning supreme in the middle lane. This 'Mage Holocaust' seems to be just another sign of how these boards underplay the strength of the mage class and combining this notion of "weak" AP champions with the current "OP" Marksmen bandwagon makes for one hell of a circle jerk!

Join me next week for yet another installment of "Weekly Circlejerk" where I will dissect next week's hot topic!

-Malicious Metal, phD in Mordelogy and Boards Science

138 Comments

Enjutsu29 votes

People tend to push theyr idea or argument any way possible, i remember seeing in one thread someone comparing item 3285 withitem 3087 and because statick so much better it meant that Mages are useless. In another one someone compared adc dps to a mages ful combo or something. Evry time someone mentions how mages are weak i just keep remembering how in evry game we have a mage in mid lane.

I will admit that i do think that mage items are not in that great of a state, they do need to have a look at and Riot did mention they will, but mages themself are doing fine.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Yeah i saw a similare comparing with item 3100 &item 3147.

Zero Skill Tank26 votes

According to statistics there are only two AD, Attack Damage, champions in top 15 mid lane champions.

It's not like 3 other farming lanes are completely dominated by AD, is it? "Marksmen invasion" over mid is nonsense, but mages being in terrible state is a fact, they are played at mid because this is the only lane you can put a magic damage threat and not autolose it, because mage range helps in short lane.

DuskDaUmbreon7 votes

Jungle is primarily tanks rn.

Top is mostly tanks and juggernauts.

ADC is all ADC, but that's to be expected. Although there are some things like Ahri ADC.

Support is primarily enchanters, with some tanks mixed in. There are precisely three AD champions that have ever supported: Yasuo, MF, and Ashe. Yasuo support is mostly just a joke, but can theoretically work. Ashe support is not meta, but could work with a couple of nudges. MF support only existed as a counter pick to Zyra.

So the only role actually dominated by AD is the role designed to have AD champions

Zero Skill Tank5 votes

5 most played toplane champions are all AD damage dealers. One of them is indeed a jugg, but I don't see how this is relevant, he's an AD jugg.

Jungle tanks might look stronger than they should be, but in top 10 played champions at jungle there are LeeSin Kayn Ezreal Khazix JarvanIV XinZhaoMasterYi on AD side, and only Sejuani Gragas and Rammus on tank side. Jarvan might be seen as 50-50, but well.

Chisel Tick Kick2 votes

Ekko Heimerdinger Karthus Lissandra Malzahar Mordekaiser Swain Teemo Veigar Vladimir Rumble Ryze Gragas Fizz

All of these champs can go top with pretty easy success, quite the number honestly. You can also take a ton of ap champs to jungle. I've ran Mord and Panth adc before, and Ziggs bot is still viable, so if you just get a complimenting support or a good matchup down bot you should be fine as well.

The only thing dominating the other roles is your mind.

[sg-ahri-2]

Zero Skill Tank17 votes

Ekko, Heimer, Karth and Lissandra TOGETHER have well less playrate on top than GP, and GP is far from being meta. I didn't bother to check stats any further, but they are similar.

You might TRY to be a smartass, but facts will stay facts.

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Mages are weak... but they're still played the most mid... because that is the best lane for a magic damage threat.

So they're weak but they're still played because they're not weak mid

Unironic SJW1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Hrx9xTzl,comment-id=00070002,timestamp=2017-10-03T12:05:36.529+0000)

Mages are weak... but they're still played the most mid... because that is the best lane for a magic damage threat.

So they're weak but they're still played because they're not weak mid

It's funny that when Jhin Varus were the only playable ADCs mage mains were like "but adcs still get picked a lot so its fine" ignoring that ADCs are the least level dependent class so if other classes are even threatening to remove them from bot, they're in a horrendous state.

NineTailedMystic16 votes

Maybe because Mages don't really have anywhere else to go, and mid is an AP populated lane?

Mages aren't actually weak, but they feel like garbage to play recently especially when you compare them to an ADC, and their itemization feels like shit. In addition they perform well because even if Mage damage has been nerfed across the board, they still have quit a bit of utility in general among the class.

Malicious Metal12 votes

Everyone feels garbage to play compared to ADC's.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Even other adcs

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Mages aren't actually weak, but they feel like garbage to play recently especially when you compare them to an ADC

Yeah, and that's what the rest of us don't fucking understand.

Why would you draw that comparison? What is the point of it? You are playing a completely different role, in a different lane, alongside a marksman. They are your teammate, they do not compete with you they assist you and you assist them. I'm not going to go onto a forum and complain that I feel like my jungle role feels weak or bland compared to a support or a top laner.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

No, I meant you compare playing an ADC yourself to playing a Mage yourself. Not comparing your mid laner to your ADC in a single specific game.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

No, I meant you compare playing an ADC yourself to playing a Mage yourself. Not comparing your mid laner to your ADC in a single specific game.

Yes and I'm asking why you would do that. Mages have different strengths and weaknesses, different lanes and power spikes, and different skill sets required to play them than marksmen. There is no reason to compare your role to a totally different role.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Because the thing ADCs and Mages have in common is that they're both supposed to be carries. However, Riot has been taking away a Mages capacity to solo carry and orienting them to be more utilitarian than actual carries. A Mage certainly can still carry, but emphasis has been taken away from them and placed on the ADC.

In addition, there have been a lot of recent additions to make Mages unable to carry unlike an ADC, and that is their Support. Supports have gotten more than excellent tools to protect their carries and enhance them as well, making it unlikely a Mage will be able to kill the ADC themselves while benefiting significantly less from their own Support. It's often the better play to support and pell for your own ADC, rather than be an APC.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Because the thing ADCs and Mages have in common is that they're both supposed to be carries. However, Riot has been taking away a Mages capacity to solo carry and orienting them to be more utilitarian than actual carries. A Mage certainly can still carry, but emphasis has been taken away from them and placed on the ADC.

In addition, there have been a lot of recent additions to make Mages unable to carry unlike an ADC, and that is their Support. Supports have gotten more than excellent tools to protect their carries and enhance them as well, making it unlikely a Mage will be able to kill the ADC themselves while benefiting significantly less from their own Support. It's often the better play to support and pell for your own ADC, rather than be an APC.

The data doesn't support your argument. If mages couldn't kill people we would have an assassin mid meta. If mages were weak, their natural assassin predators would be dominating.

Wait, I guess it's because mages have an easy time killing top laners and junglers. Man it's like there's five players instead of 3. Who would have thought?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Like I said, it's not like a Mage can't carry or can't kill champions. It's just become harder and harder for them to actually do so, while ADCs can carry like it's nothing and chew through 99% of champions like butter.

Assassins have their own problems preventing them from dominating the game (strength of Tanks and Supports in particular).

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Why would marksmen not be able to kill everyone? They have to get much closer to their target than a mage does, and their damage is based entirely around concentrated fire against a single target for a duration. It's very easy to interrupt, and the champions themselves are quite fragile compared to a mage who can build health, armor and MR.

Yes, the power of supports has increased recently. No one cares. Supports have been bad since the removal of XP masteries in Season 5, now they finally get some power back. That has nothing to do with mage or ADC itemization. It doesn't help your argument in the slightest.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Think of it like this. ADCs are the star of the show, while Mages are just a backup dancer despite originally being a duet performance.

Instead of Mages being pushed to more utility role (as shown in AP decreases, but CDR increases), we want them back to a higher damage role.

LightIsMyPath14 votes

AD midlaners: Corki Jayce Talon Yasuo Zed Lucian Gangplank AP midlaners: Ahri Akali Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Brand Cassiopeia Diana Ekko Fizz Galio Heimerdinger Karthus Karma Kayle Kennen Leblanc Lissandra Lux Morgana Orianna Ryze Swain Syndra Taliyah TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Xerath Zilean Ziggs Zyra Malzahar

4/7 of ADs are represented in your top playrates stat. that's 57% of their roster. 11/36 of APs are there: 30,5%

2/7 ADs: 28% 13/36 APs: 36%

Mages still have more members in the highest winrate bracket [sg-syndra] (even thought to more reliably consider winrates we should eliminate the champions with very low pickrate). Pick rate wise more then half of the AD roster is represented while slightly more then 1/4 of AP roster is represented. So, your data actually support the circlejerk in that we see way more ADs then mages :/ [sg-lux-2]

Instead of mocking the people who's voicing their issue, I suggest focusing your time and the attention you get as a rather influent member of the community on providing a better analysis on the situation and suggesting potential solutions (like you greatly do in your other thread ).

PS: I may have left someone out which would lead to slightly different math but you get my point. Also, sorry for the bad English, feel free to correct me if there are "grammar monsters", I'm always happy to improve. Byee [katarina-love]

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

So, your data actually support the circlejerk in that we see way more ADs then mages :

Erm, just to clarify.

What you're saying is that the AD midlane pool is smaller, and we see a higher percentage of them being used than the percentage of the AP midlane pool.

Thing is, that's unavoidable.

Because there are less AD champs than AP champs that go midlane, your statement

Pick rate wise more then half of the AD roster is represented while slightly more then 1/4 of AP roster is represented

This means nothing.

It would be more relevant if the number of AD and AP champs that go mid were more even. But they are so vastly differing in sizes that any comparison of representation means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Just something I noticed.

0 Hogapu2 votes

Upvoted for the Byee [katarina-love] More seriously, your figures are pretty representative of what is happening right now. Ad champs are just better to use, given their simple build path, whith high dalage very early in the game. Stattick shiv is just absolutely broken right now.

Moonfall Saber13 votes

We all know ap items are the problem not the champions. I respect you but your fishing for upvotes.

Leetri3 votes

Clearly not everyone knows, otherwise we wouldn't get daily threads about how mages are useless and how people only play ADCs mid now.

Ęsdeath4 votes

I am not going to lie, I hate the AP itemization - Not the itemization itself but the itemization against certain AD Builds.

Seriously though, any mid laner assassin (mostly Zed and Talon) can simply build up Hexdrinker and Mercury's Treads both giving magic resist (plus a broken shield and I am already seeing some talons and zeds picking the magic shield rune from the upcoming runes reforged, it would still be [double] effective) and being gold effective (one of them giving out AD).

Now, mages ... only possess one armor item and it's Zhonya's ... still, personally, I think it is way too unique and only gives some worthless 45 armor that can get shred by one duskblade and one youmuu's (plus the lethality runes) which is ALWAYS in Zed and Talon's build - Seriously, the 45 armor offered by Zhonya's are not even useful against duskblade's passive, you still take a lot of damage. I just think Riot should implement another AP item with armor included in it OR something similar to lethality to AP champions OR maybe an item with a shield (not magical) for AP's - Manamune is not useful for most mages.

OP Garen Support10 votes

So then you decided to strike an argument that mid laners (80 % of them are mages) are playing on midlane? Really?

Thats like saying supports do well on botlane. Suprise I know.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Best princess EU2 votes

so why are you complaining about mages doing good mid? they're midlaners, it's their own lane because most mags (except some like karthus) are really good at roaming and taking quick XP to reach lvl 9 which is their powerspike where they can oneshot a squishy target

if mages are doing well no point in complaining

OP Garen Support6 votes

The boards is not 1 person. I never complained mages being weak on midlane. Not every mage is viable though and it could be easily fixed by updating mage itemization . What I do complain though is that ADC's are dominating every other role because Assassins are weak and adc itemization is way too overloaded.

When ADC 1-2 basic attack deals more damage then full mage combo's skillshots then there are problems.

There is no skill in right clicking no matter what anyone says. Same reason Malzahar is good on mid his E and R is almost as brainless as ADC's right clicking because it cant miss. I was a Malzahar main so dont tell me he is too hard to play.

Midlane is never the problem mage can beat mage. Mage cant beat ADC now thats a problem. (if you hit your full combo and still get deleted by the ADC then the game is inbalanced in favor of ADC's) Thats the real reason of people complaining. ADC are not DPS anymore they are BURST PER SECOND +slave keeping them alive(support) + Life Steal

Iceborn Seeker6 votes

Lots of them are used by onetricks( Kayle with 0.65% pick rate), so ofc they have higher winrate, the problem is when a champ has both high playrate and high winrate.

Malicious Metal10 votes

Which none of the mid lane marksmen have.

Penns5 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/e91db6a8e68544df43e15b153d120472.png

for almost every ap champ theres 1 non-ap champ in the top 10 hehe

i think we both know that plat stats suk m9

Malicious Metal5 votes

Because everyone's a Pro player. Also, I only spy 2 adc's, 3 ad champions.

3/10 -> 30%

You really suck at math.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER4 votes

Fucking finally, I’ve been telling people that both Corki and Lucian have never had a win rate above 50% yet I get immediately downvotes and told how I’m so wrong and they crowd out everyone.

Even their play rate is significantly lower.

Akali is SO HOT6 votes

Corki was actually the best mid laner earlier this season. Since his last set of nerfs he's settled down to a okay state.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

phD in Mordelogy and Boards Science

Ahem, I would like to confirm this phD, I have seen him on campus in Boards College. I was studying Azirology and Support Tactics, so I only saw him sparingly.

Glory ln Death3 votes

Ah, yes. Good old Support Tactics. That was a good minor. Really glad I majored in Applied Sionce, though.

Horse Grenades4 votes

Quit using logic to debunk circlejerks! Let us rage!

DeadUnborn4 votes

the problem isn't that mages as a class are useless, the problem is that they lack diversity in their itemization. Riot has already stated this is a problem

LadyRenly3 votes

I am a diehard mage player, but the boards weekly new circlejerk irritates the heck out of me. Every week, something in particular gets 50 threads spammed a day, its really annoying having people try to brute force changes they personally want and stifle other conversations

Mazariamonti3 votes

Mages don't have anywhere else to go really, If you try to move them somewhere else you'll generally get flamed for the pick and really you're still facing the same problem in other lanes as you are in mid lane. The reason why Mage players get annoyed when ad champs become prevalent AT ALL in mid lane is almost entirely because of itemization, more so than the mage's or ad champs themselves.

Because ad champs don't have to worry about running out of mana as much they can build basically whatever need to to deal with the situation at hand. Things going well? Build some armor pen. Things not going well? Build a maw. Getting poked a little? Build some life steal. Not being significantly gated by mana allows these champions to instantly adapt or take advantage.

When I'm playing my mages mid lane it basically goes like this.

Am I worried about getting bursted down? If so work towards a rod of ages. No matter how good or bad things get I must build catalyst first. Am I not worried about getting bursted down? If so work towards morellonomicon. No matter how good or bad things get I must build item 3802 first.

If I don't I am relying entirely on the ability of my team to deliver a blue buff to me. As so, not very reliable.

The long and the short of it is that mages don't have a good, standard item to answer an AD mid, which makes playing against them feel much worse than it should. Zhonyas is a piece of garbage, it is picked all the time because mages have no other options, but it's still a shitty item. Mages need an ap armor item that gives them a pool of mana. It doesn't even have to offer a lot of armor, just enough to avoid taking true damage the second your ad opponent builds some armor pen.

Snaketits2 votes

Meanwhile Cass is sitting in the dumpster after these 7.18 changes.

Malicious Metal10 votes

Shouldn't have rushed item 3001 then :^)

Lit Corn1 votes

yo malicious metal , after what ive seen in the recent posts i think ur next week topic will be the 5 man premade missions xd everyone complaining about it .

Malicious Metal2 votes

Oh boy, looking forward to that.

Inting Pillow29 votes

Good. Her kit is cancer.

Snaketits3 votes

How exactly is her kit cancer? She has more counterplay than many other mages. She's immobile (which makes her a terrible roamer), short-ranged, squishy and has to rely on hitting a delayed skillshot to start her actual barrage. However after these nerfs she lacks both the damage and the mana to kill anyone in lane without the jungler babysitting her.

She's entirely dependent on finishing 3 items to make up for the nerf, most games are already over at that point in the current 25 minute meta. In the end she serves no purpose at all since she's just a liability to her own team.

Tormentula7 votes

Its not fun when a good cassio just E spams you out of lane level 2 and then all ins you either immediately after or level 3.

PaffWasTaken2 votes

It's not all about pickrates, winrates and general experience in competitive play, the mages aren't fun anymore since they don't feel like they fill the roles they should. They are almost necessities to a team comp, thats why they are still played. Everyone is getting carried by botlane, so win rate on a mage isnt about its actual capacities as a mage, but how he can support the botlane (the only thing that can stop botlane are full man ganks, explaining the good situation of TF). So everyone is complaining about mages that are not feeling like mages anymore, its not all about numbers... The mid position was considered before to be the "leader" kind of role, with it's role being supporting both top and bot while and carrying until the ADC outscales you. Now the only thing you do is protect a turret, thing hardly done with some mages

FilDaFunk2 votes

Most threads I read are only commenting on the horrible state of mages because their itemization is boring compared to AD. Mages are forced to rush Morello's, then their later options are just stale.

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