But you have to buy a mana item to get the CDR you need as a tank?
For tanks without mana like 
and 
, it's harder to get CDR when going full tank. Especially for Shen.
Can we talk about this or is it better this way?
PPPPPPPPPPPP27032 votesThat's part of their weakness in design for having no real resource to manage.
Ariel the Cruel13 votesUm.... Shen is the only energy champion that reasonably does have to manage his resource bar. Granted, it's still a far cry from... Say... Lissandra.
(Rumble's bar kinda works in reverse and does it's own thing.)
Melledoneus3 votesDid you know?
Shen loses 45% of his full resource bar for missing his E? On top of a double digit cooldown.
Gee whiz, what a freelo braindead champion.
XeroKimo2 votesStill never understood why they doubled his energy pool, while doubling his energy use...... but not doubling the energy regen..... Why don't they just bring it back to normal values honestly?
Melledoneus1 votesHis new Q is spammable, so I'm guessing a larger pool was necessary.
XeroKimo2 votesWhat's the point of getting a larger pool if the abilities themselves pretty much costs double than it should? I find it extremely counter intuitive, the only thing with a reasonable cost even if he had a normal energy pool is his W @ 40.
Melledoneus1 votesTo encourage getting combos off, I guess.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesThe problem with energy champions is how quickly they get their resource back. On a tank with spammable shields and a decent ranged dash, the traditional energy pool would force them to either increase his cooldown prohibitively or make Shen into an unkillable brick. The increased energy pool and costs ensure that Shen can only use his kit effectively in a slug-fest.
How this approach reinforces the idea of him being a ninja . . . I don't think anyone is trying.
P.S.: I miss old Shen. The Spirit sword is just so awkward to work with.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesI think you have confused "does" with "doesn't".
Melledoneus3 votes180/400 energy. Do the math, bub.
Talisid10 votesWell there is 
and 
but after that you're kind of out of luck.
Maybe you should consider CDR/Level Glyphs. That will give you an extra 15% at level 18. I don't know that Shen really benifits from CDR that much though. He's usually limited by his Energy costs.
tbh I miss when 
had 10% CDR.
Melledoneus3 votesShen's whole schtick is sticking to enemies and resetting his shield, energy bar, and using his low CD Q to deal damage. With good CDR he can keep up this combo and become a "supertank." However given the innate lack of CDR in most tank items it's difficult to reach that status without building an item that really screws with you or has good stats wasted on you.
WoonStruck1 votesIt had 15% CDR.
So did Shurelya's Reverie.
Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes15% was a pain to cap though, I like how Riot standardised all cdr into multiples of 10.
WoonStruck4 votesConsidering the 4% from masteries, it wasn't bad to cap.
And most people got Reverie+Omen, which gave 30% total, so you didn't even need the mastery.
Need Gold 4 Tent6 votesAh yes, I remember now. Had to put in 2 flat cdr glyphs to make for that 1 % (because I hated seeing 39%).
ProfDrDeath2 votesNo, Randuin's actually had 5% CdR. Like, kind of randomly, since none of its components had the stat.
Frozen Heart had 25%. Shurelia's had 15%. Youmuu's had 15%.
WoonStruck3 votesI could have sworn Omen was 10 or 15 at some point.
Edit: it was
CerealBoxOfDoom7 votesBut you have to buy a mana item to get the CDR you need as a tank?
GOOD
Melledoneus4 votesPlease tell me which champion would be a problem if that wasn't the case. I'm honestly curious.
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes
Melledoneus5 votesAkali shouldn't be building tank. This is her bad design, not the items.
Blitzcrank gets half his CDR from mana items.
Mundo needs to stack HP. If the item doesn't have absurd HP it's useless on Mundo.
Mordekaiser is going to build AP.
Renekton builds juggernaut items. If a tank CDR item appeals to him offensively, then it's not a true tank item.
Shen has never been an issue. He's arguably the weakest tank in the game right now.
Yasuo doesn't need CDR.
Zac already gets the CDR he needs from AP items.
Vlad usually builds AP and Spirit Visage.
Tank Ekko should be dead.
Irelia already gets her CDR with her current build.
TheHappyReaperz6 votes 
are normally my go to CDR tanky items
Paladin 0f Life5 votes 
Um what are you talking about especially 
I dont understand what you saying it no make logical
Melledoneus15 votes[{quoted}](name=Paladin 0f Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HeK5rida,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-31T21:14:21.977+0000)
10%
10%
Why the hell would I build this on Shen.
" "
As much as I like the 400 HP, the MR on it is horrible and it's a wasted slot when it could be substituted for 
.
Merc treads and Ninja tabi are so much more valuable on a tank like Shen who soaks damage and CC.
Great, a reliable way to cancel my ultimate as Shen. Next.
People who build triforce on Shen are either trolling, living in the past, or unfamiliar with the champion. This item's attack speed is essentially wasted on Shen's low AS growth, the phage is nice but it doesn't give the ideal HP you need to soak damage, and the Sheen will not come in handy enough to warrant the huge cost on this item.
Now that the first two items have given me 20% CDR, what do I build from this, 
? Maybe if it gave 100 more HP or 10 more armor.
[{quoted}](name=Paladin 0f Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HeK5rida,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-31T21:14:21.977+0000)
I dont understand what you saying it no make logical
Catastrop6 votes
With the preseason changes, it might become a good item for manaless tanks.
WoonStruck3 votes60 MR is horrible now?
The shield was buffed by a massive amount; more effective Hp for the user; significantly more for everyone else effected by it.
Its still a very viable option compared to Banshee's Veil.
More in response to the post above this, but it highlights the specific item, so just tagging onto this.
50000000000000005 votes gives 20 MR? Or are you talking about the S7 locket?
WoonStruck4 votesIt gives 35 MR, as well as 400 HP and a pretty substantial shield. Its not inferior to BV in regards to survivability at all.
yeah, BV grants 35 more MR, but it also gives 445 less health, essentially. In addition to you not having the legion passive.
Season 7 is what I was referring to, however. Either way, Locket>BV every time unless someone else on your team is already grabbing it. Nothing wrong with more 375 value shields and another 35MR for you and +15 for whoever has the other though.
Ariel the Cruel2 votes 400 health, 15 MR aura, 20 (35) MR, active {540 effective health}
300 health, 70 MR, passive {510 effective health}
BV gives 100 less raw health and 30 less effective magic health. Not sure where you pulled "445" from.
WoonStruck3 votes100 extra HP plus the active on Locket.
I never mentioned EHP, I said it essentially granted 445 more health, due to the active.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesyeah, BV grants 35 more MR, but it also gives 445 less health, essentially. In addition to you not having the legion passive.
Your including the active in that number wasn't clear. Partly because the shield isn't a static amount (scales with level).
But then, you don't generally buy Banshee's for the stats anymore since SV is flat better. Making the whole topic somewhat moot.
500 health, 55MR {775 effective health}
Pierce The Veal5 votesI just run 20% cdr at 18 runes. 1 quint, 9 glyphs.
Melledoneus6 votesGiven the lack of MR options in a standard build, I can't afford to run CDR glyphs on Shen. T_T
Pierce The Veal4 votesGiven the lack of MR options in a standard build, I can't afford to run CDR glyphs on Shen. T_T
Wits end, abyssal scepter, spirit visage, GA, banshees, zerg rush are all good options. Though you are right, there aren't many good MR options (yet mage mains still circlejerk pretty damn hard).
Ariel the Cruel7 votesyet mage mains still circlejerk pretty damn hard).
AD/MR 
/
(PD debatable since is can reduce any damage under limited circumstances.)
AD/Pen 
/
AD/Health 
Misc: 
(Still surprised this aura is around.)
VS
AP/AR 
AP/Pen 
AP/Health 
/
Pen 
The foundation of the complaint is the disparity between AD and AP counter-itemization. Not necessarily about total defensive options. Whether this is justified or perceived is a topic for a different time and I don't really feel like crunching numbers right now.
Pierce The Veal3 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HeK5rida,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-01T05:44:18.976+0000)
AD/MR
VS
AP/AR
The foundation of the complaint is the disparity between AD and AP counter-itemization. Not necessarily about total defensive options. Whether this is justified or perceived is a topic for a different time and I don't really feel like crunching numbers right now.
Now let's compare anti AD itemization (armor) vs anti AP itemization (MR). There's a lot more armor itemization than there is MR itemization.
I agree that there is an issue with AD itemization, but by no means is AP itemization weaker than AD itemization. My biggest problem is with the sheer scaling power of ADCs building for the late game but still bullying everyone in the early game. AD+attack speed+crit+lifesteal is the most ridiculous and powerful itemization in the game with its sheer exponential power. But that's only a handful of ADCs and not the remainder of the itemization. The truth is, ADs of course have to have a larger itemization, because they simply have a larger amount of roles. Adcs, bruisers, juggernauts, assassins, melee carries, and a few others that have to build around situations, while mages could at the most have three subclasses (really): burst mage, utility mage, mobile mage (with like 3 assassins, but they want to build the same anyway).
Webber885 votesI want warmogs to give 1000 health like it used to... I was able to deal so much more dmg as full health shenpai
Zero Skill Tank4 votesThe issue here is that for most tanks, especially when we are talking about actual full-tank builds, CD is their main gating factor. Playing between cooldowns of ultimates, like say Unstoppable Force, or Stay United is the main counterplay of many tanks.
It is important factor for any class, but much more so for tanks, because their abilities are often very powerful without much items - it doesn't matter that Malphie or Mumu is 0-4, if he lands good ult he will still contribute much to the teamfight. Meanwhile a mage or marksman who has been put behind won't achieve much.
Melledoneus3 votesThat's a fair point. However, I disagree in that 
and 
give a whopping 20% CDR and tanky stats. Armor and mana, while it doesn't give any HP, it grants some serious physical protection and resource sustain. I find it unfair that there isn't an option for tanks who aren't part of the status quo and can't afford that CDR.
I'd gladly give up a few tank stats for some CDR if I'm ahead.
Zero Skill Tank3 votesBut that's the whole point. If a tank doesn't use mana, they are gated even less than other tanks, so their access to CDR is cut that bit more.
Melledoneus3 votesBut there's only two tanks like that, and their resources are still limited to a degree. Shen missing his E is almost half his energy pool.
Sire Hippington4 votesWell, there's a reason is stnadart even on champs with no selfheal at all to boost(am i the only one that finds this really wrong?)
Also, there is , though it sadly sucks so it barely gets used despite haveing cdr...
The lack of cdr on tanky items, especially armor, outside of 
+ is quite an issue, and slapping it on items that already serve an other niche isn't a good solution either.
If i ever get Warmongs, it should be because of the sustain, not the cdr. If i go SV, it should be because it boosts my selfheal, not because it has cdr. But sadly that's not the case right now.
I actually have the same issue on AP. I usually get 40%cdr from runes+morellos, and if then find my self in need of extra mr(abysal) or a stasis/armor(zhonyas), i simply overcap cdr which feels bad.
I really miss the times where CDR items actually had the CDR as major selling point and not just tagged on. Zhonyas should be bought for the active, and maybe for the stat combo of armor and ap, not for cdr. Abysal should be bought for the aura and the stat-combo, not cdr.
It feels like we get to a point where we have two ways to go: slap 10% cdr on every completed item so it's a delayed stat without any decisionmakeing tied to it, or go back to more dedicated cdr options that don't have other big niches like %heal increase or a stasis-active.
The issue for cdr on not the lack of cdtr on their items overall, but that there was only one viable dedicated cdr item, it was like ADCs back when Phantomdancer was the only as+crit item. But instead of doing the same that they did for adc, which was giving alternatives that also take the AS+crit niche, they decided to simply throw cdr on other items. It's as if they had slapped some AS and/or crit on BT, IE, LW and maybe even GA instead of introduceing SS, RFC and Hurricane...
All that beeing said, most tanks need the mana from either or if they go for cdr or they won't be able to use the lower CDs for long, and there are barely any manaless tanks. most are fighters that can use either or . I can't think of more than Zac and Shen right now, and Zac works well with some mage items like and .
Schen doesn't work well with cdr anyway cause he's really heavily gated by his energy already. But if you still want cdr badly on him,
all can do the trick.
ModWulf Helhammer6 votesSprite visage is also one of the highest MR items in the game, and the heal boost also applies to heals you get from others and self regen
Ralanr3 votesWe do have Warmogs to get some CDR, and Visage.
Plus an AP item like Abyssal also gives CDR.
Melledoneus4 votesBuilding Abyssal on Shen is suicide, in my experience. If you don't stack resistances and HP on Shen you're going to get blown up because of how horrible his base stats are.
I've tried every single build I've thought up: Bloodrazor, AP, jugger-bruiser build... they all suck because you don't have enough time to pull off your damage before someone blows you up.
Idroold1 votesdude abyssal will give magic resist
Melledoneus2 votesIt also gives no HP and some AP, which is almost a useless stat on Shen post-rework.
Keepe1 votes
I DID IT.
Melledoneus4 votesNice tank Fiddle build, now please find me one for Shen.