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"we want to broaden the number of champions that can tap into an AP jungle item"

Dr Poro··33 votes·2,480 views

we want to broaden (you might say diversify) the number of champions that can tap into an AP jungle item. The main problem with Magus was that it didn't make champions functionally better at jungling (like say, Cinderhulk); instead, it gave champions who already jungled well a pretty large stat infusion in the midgame. What you end up with is the same effect observed with Luden's Echo or top lane Challenging Smite - a narrowed champion pool defined by who can, or cannot, use the item well.

That last sentence... is EXACTLY what Runeglaive does.

How can you say that Magus narrowed the champion pool depending on how well they use the item? Yeah, there are so few AP champs that can make use of a bunch of AP and CDR. Who the hell needs those stats? Runeglaive on the other hand has mana and a spellblade, both things that EVERYONE uses right? RIGHT?!?

While I don't entirely disagree with the change (fiddlesticks was OP and this'll give a chance other AP 'junglers', basically because of what they said before (the part that does make sense): "it gave champions who already jungled well a pretty large stat infusion in the midgame") I think that last sentence of the paragraph was very inapropriate. Magus gave way more universal stats, the only problem was that it didn't help as much in the jungle. You will definitely see some AP junglers rising, but right now the AP junglers that will rise are a narrowed champion pool defined by who can, or cannot, use the item well.

55 Comments

James Stone18 votes

What I don't comprehend about Runeglaive is what exactly is it for?

The champions who went AP jungle and took Sheen either went Iceborn Gauntlet (People like Maokai, Bruiser Fizz and Bruiser Diana) or Lich Bane (Ekko, AP Fizz, the short lived jungle TF, etc), both items having a better Sheen active than Runeglaive. So why would I buy Runeglaive, who has the worst Sheen effect out of every other item, having much less damage and only mana sustain, where I can simply rush a Catalyst, have most of my mana problems solved, and then evolve Sheen into an actually good item outside of the jungle. I honestly can't see bruiser Fizz sacrificing the AoE Slow of Iceborn, or Diana sacrificing the pure burst Lich Bane gives her, for mana sustain on the early game.

Fiddlesticks already skipped buying Magus to rush Hourglass, and I think most AP junglers will get the jungler item, never enchant it, then sell it when the late game arrives. Runeglaive doesn't seem to do anything as good as than the other Sheen items rather than allowing mana sustain, and I don't know if mana sustain is worth this many sacrifices.

Hinagiku337 votes

Pretty much this

I don't see myself ever buying Runeglaive except to try it out once or twice.

Honestly you don't even really need the jungling items mid-late game unless you really, really want that augmented smite. The whole point of enchantments was to make the items actually slot-efficient. Adding in a Sheen-proc just means it now has to be compared to the other Sheen items...and it's pretty obvious it compared badly.

Is there really a reason not to just go Morellonomicon/Lich Bane and sell off the jungle item now?

Partholonian2 votes

Not if you have infinite gold, because by then you won't need any jungle item (nor will any other jungler under the same circumstances). Most games don't last long enough for junglers to have infinite gold though, and even if they do, the item still has a window of usefulness in the first 50 minutes. Bonus gold on monster kill and a mana restore are indeed pretty crappy when you already have 20k gold and are level 18, but that's not what jungle items are designed for.

Runeglaive is CHEAPER than LB and Iceborn, while ALSO having the smite upgrade and the standard set of anti-monster stats. Of course it doesn't also have equal or higher regular stats, that would be completely and utterly insane.

If you're really going to compare it to the other Sheen items, start by comparing equal gold (so the runeglaive is going to be accompanied by at least an extra fiendish codex), and then you have to figure out how to value the jungle benefits and mana restore.

BiggestNoob3ver1 votes

{quoted}

Not if you have infinite gold, because by then you won't need any jungle item (nor will any other jungler under the same circumstances).

Devourer. Otherwise yes.

BluePolarizer1 votes

devourer and cinderhulk both scale pretty damn hard.

NorthernDruid3 votes

Yeah the spellblade effect on Runeglaive feels so weak, it sits in this weird in-between spot where it's worse than lichbane for what you want lichbane for (high single target burst) and doesn't do what Iceborn Gauntlet does (repeated slowing).

I guess for lichbane users it's nice that it lets you get a slightly less powerful LB with an AoE on it, which occupies your jungle item slot.

IMO they need to give it a niche of its own, like all the other spellblade items. Triforce has high innate spellblade as part of an all around statup, Lichbane has strong AP scaling and Iceborn's got that slow and AoE for waveclear.

Runeglaive has a bit of Lichbane's scaling and a bit of Iceborn's waveclear without having comparable stats to either, nor fulfilling their niches properly, and its niche seems to be jungle clear/sustain, which isn't compatible with what you get sheen for (extra burst/sustained burst).

Zenthon Prime4 votes

What we could do is make it have two different Spellblade effects: -On minions and monsters you get the current AoE blast -On champions you get Lich Bane

And seriously, it needs more than 40 AP. That's pathetic.

NorthernDruid1 votes

60 AP is the minimum if you wanna be sort of reasonable.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

I never really went spellblade on Diana jungle before I usually magus > roa > ludens/zhonya/abyssal, and so to be Runeglaive opens up a lot more paths so I don't NEED roa for the mana. As if I wanted burst I found ludens the superior choice.

Also Nidalee stands to benefit from this while putting her a bit less poky from the jungle which is for the better for everyone, and I found it pretty awkward to work lichbane into her build from the jungle prior.

FirstSergeantBim12 votes

Runeglaive's pretty exciting. I don't know why you seem to have a problem with it. Fiddlesticks doesn't even need Magus, it just happens to be optimal for him compared to Runeglaive. The only champions that legitimately lose out on Runeglaive are manaless AP junglers, which there are very few (like one or two, maybe? especially that wouldn't want to build Cinderhulk in the first place). In fact, I'm even convinced those champions actually lose out that much on Runeglaive. It's kind of like Rek'Sai building Trinity Force: she can use the item really well... but it has mana so it turns people off.

It should be pretty obvious there's going to be a narrow pool of champions that will be interested in an AP jungle item in the first place, but you act like they should've made the thing Trinity Force's little sister so EVERYONE could join the party. Literally every AP champion that would even consider jungling has a chance to jungle with Runeglaive and they wouldn't have never even considered it before. In fact, there are AP champions who won't jungle that will pick the item up just to use the passive. Kind of like TP/Smite Shyvana, only in the mid-lane and instead of TP it will be flash or something. That sounds like an expanded pool of champions who will use the item well and it sounds exactly like what Riot was trying to do.

Before you get caught up on the less AP and the less CDR why don't we take a look at the two features that make this item a HUGE boon for us. The Sheen proc converts our enhanced AA to MAGIC DAMAGE and replenishes MANA. There are very few ways to legitimately sustain a champions mana pool comparable to a manaless champion. While we'll still have to see how it works, mana-based champions will have a chance to stay out spamming their abilities almost indefinitely without a blue buff. That's big. Now, let's take a look at the magic damage AA. That makes AP Ezreal an actual thing. I kid you not we will start to see that little guy running around building AP, because it will legitimately be viable. Sure, you could say AP Ezreal is viable right now, but with Runglaive, he will be legitimately powerful. Riot gives us an item that allows AP champions to convert one source of physical damage into magical damage and you act like that's no big deal. Like we shouldn't be grateful. You do understand how magic penetration works, right? And that magic damage will proc Rylai's and Liandries? Think about that and AP Ezreal. It's even AoE for crying out loud!!!

By the way, they're either going to nerf Udyr over Runeglaive or nerf Runeglaive over Udyr. I'm calling that shit right now because it will be OP as balls. AP-Runeglaive Jungle Udyr will definitely be a thing. Among many other... things....

Amumu Chogath Diana DrMundo Ekko Elise Evelynn Ezreal Fiddlesticks Fizz Galio Gangplank Karthus Gragas Kassadin Kayle KogMaw Lissandra Lulu Maokai Morgana Nidalee Nunu Poppy Ryze Sejuani Shaco Teemo TwistedFate Udyr Warwick Zac Nasus Couldn't be happier.

Chessburger10 votes

Over half of those champions are extremely random and some can't even reliably jungle. Some don't need mana so it's a wasted stat. AP Shaco isn't going to work, it'll be a gimmick except it would have been a more effective gimmick with the stats from magus than this item because you can't build lich bane if you build this. The only ones who actually profit considerably from this item are: Diana, Elise, Evelynn. And out of those only Diana had a really hard time due to high mana costs. AP Gragas maybe, but the loss of 10% cdr and 40 AP hurts his mid-game a lot more than he gains from some mana sustain and a measly spellblade effect. And also restricts his favourite item lich bane....... So yeah all in all from someone who enjoys AP based junglers this change was bad.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

You don't really understand this item, do you. You didn't read my post, did you. If you thought about it, it might make sense to you. Why don't you read it over again and think about why the unique qualities of the Runeglaive Spellblade are worth more than a measly 10% CDR and 40 AP. Then apply that to all of the champions in my list. Whether you understand it or not, Runeglaive is a good thing.

Chessburger1 votes

Hmm I missed the conversion to magic damage. Hmm.... gonna have to see what that does for my favourite off build - ap ez. Though losing the ignite makes it impossible to get pre 6 cheese kills.

Sorry for the misunderstanding was a bit too emotionally vested. :)

After playing around with it a bit I did actually prefer it to cinderhulk on malphite and nautilus as weird as that may sound. The clear speed and ganking power when you finish the item is so amazing it offsets the lategame hp scaling on cinder. + it gives my favourite stat - CDR which is really lacking on cinder, I really like using ult more frequently midgame but that's just my playstyle I guess.

Edit: would runeglaive make Ez Q proc Luden's echo damage? Right now it just gets the stacks but doesn't proc the damage.

MohawkBird1 votes

I really don't even feel like Elise or Diana profit that much from this. I still would rather get Cinderhulk than Runeglaive on her and would much better prefer old Magus for Diana over this.

Chessburger1 votes

I jungled Diana every now and again. She had extreme mana issues, made me had to hog blues and still drop really low on mana. Haven't tried her yet though.

MohawkBird1 votes

While Diana does have mana issues in the jungle I still feel that she would prefer the high amount of AP and CDR that Runeglaive gave. Not to mention the fact that Lich Bane is a way superior item that is pretty core on Diana, but now Runeglaive makes it inefficient to buy it.

Chessburger1 votes

I guess, I don't have enough experience on Diana. I feel the same way about AP gragas who was basically my most played champ before the cinderhulk ban fad. The extra AP and CDR coupled with ability to buy lich bane heavily outweighs the new items perks.

Vegas Dad2 votes

{quoted}

I jungled Diana every now and again. She had extreme mana issues, made me had to hog blues and still drop really low on mana. Haven't tried her yet though.

That is a champion issue, she is like that in lane also, she has one of the smallest mana pools in the game. So while this item will grant her more mana it fails her in many other aspects and destroys liche bane which was a huge item for her.

DrCyanide2 votes

Are you saying AP Ezreal Jungle will be a thing? Or is it more like top lane smite, where a laner takes smite just so they can get a jungle item?

LittleBlast1 votes

Well i can see ap ez mid getting thks and q'ing raptors for free mana.

FirstSergeantBim3 votes

Why would he have to Q raptors for free mana?

LittleBlast2 votes

B/c the mana return only procs if you hit a monster with the spellblade. Correct me if im wrong.

FirstSergeantBim3 votes

No, you're right. They didn't include that portion in the patch notes, but it's in the tool-tip in game.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

I doubt anyone will want to run Ezreal through the jungle.

BiggestNoob3ver1 votes

Why are Mundo and Zac listed too??? They are manaless and don't build AP really anyways

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Did you read my post? Just because the item has mana and mana restoration doesn't mean champions won't be interested in it. The sheen effect will make Zac/Mundo's AA's much stronger and allow his magic penetration to do some work as well as applying spell effects. If you can't see why that's valuable, then I'm done here.

Sightless661 votes

The sheen effect will make Zac/Mundo's AA's much stronger and allow his magic penetration to do some work as well as applying spell effects

The autoattacks don't apply spell effects. Spellblade is still an on-hit effect. Just because the autoattacks do magic damage doesn't make them spells.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Runeglaive procs spell effects. Confirmed on PBE.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/strategy/champions-and-gameplay/127427-runeglaive-ap-ezreal

If you don't believe me try it out for yourself.

NullDragon1 votes

AP ezreal. Runeglaive. Rylai's 40% slow for 1 second on AOE and luden's.

Mind = blown.

BiggestNoob3ver1 votes

Of course. Spell effect Zac and Mundo. Those are totally going to be played. With a runeglaive instead of just Cinderhulk with Liandries/Rylais.

Zac will do his famous E auto Q W R W W W and auto once his ult is done, and AP spell effect Mundo is going to survive getting into auto range to abuse this new item proc, without any defense items initially. Although they are only slightly better than spell effect Aatrox and Urgot.

Skarner and Jax are more likely to do it than at least those 2. Why? Frequent sheen procs, sheen is a good rush on them, and AP scalings. Their combo late game includes autos weaved in between spells always. They could buy it without gimping how they work. Will they buy it? not likely

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

What would you know? You're just a giant noob, probably even the biggest noob ever. Taking advice from you is not something I'm interested in doing... at all. Besides, it's not like Zac and Mundo can build tanky AND build for utility. It's not like Zac isn't going to AA in between W procs. Nope, fights only last long enough for a Zac combo, that's for sure. But, you're right. Those guys have zero interest in this item because of Skarner and Jax, except... no that's not true. They do have an interest in this item, regardless of them! Whether or not it is ideal is up for debate, but you cannot tell me they aren't at least interested and that sort of a build would be fun to play. Stay salty, noob.

Chessburger2 votes

Shit doesn't make any sense, even on paper. They should've kept both magus and runeglaive so you had a choice. Right now you can choose not to build a jungle item if you want any of the other spellblade effects. Such choice, much diversity, very wow. Or you can choose not to build it at all and sell upgraded machete back when you want to build your 6th item because the shitty early game only stats it gives are just not worth having. We asked for some mana sustain for ap junglers, we got shafted by this crap now. This is worse than being unable to rush Juggernaut because it didn't offer much. You could still build it 2nd, 3rd or whatever item because it gave a nice amount of hp and tenacity (so you could go tabi or other boots for better jungle sustain/midgame AA protection and get the tenacity when you needed it through jungle upgrade. This item has to be rushed 100% first item or it's useless. Oh and it having mana is also a complete stat waste for any potential ap jungler who doesn't use mana.

/rant

NullDragon1 votes

Er. All spellblade items have mana?

Chessburger1 votes

I rambled a bit too much. The mana on jungle item and inability to use other spellblade items are 2 different issues I wanted to point out.

NullDragon1 votes

Anyway. I tried Runeglaive a few times on AP Ezreal mid.

Absolutely amazing. AP Ezreal feels broken now.

Chessburger1 votes

Lol nice. Now just to convince my team mates to do this consistently. The only times I lost as AP ez up till now was if we lacked waveclear and they just sieged heavily...

NullDragon1 votes

Runeglaive gives you waveclear.

Aaaaaand it turns all of the damage of Q into magic damage, AoE(on half), AND applies single-target spell effects to the first target hit.

Rylai's and ludens gives such stupid amounts of damage. And you can actually itemize penetration now, since 100% of your damage is magical with the runeglaive. Runeglaive literally turns Ezreal into a AP hypercarry and it is amazing.

brad2 votes

riot is just talking out of their ass with those fucking buzzwords that redditors eat up, nothing new

Vegas Dad2 votes

Riot is literally full of retards... magus is exactly what ap junglers needed, the runeglaive is literally less of what they need. Mana sustain was not a huge problem so much as HEALTH sustain.. herr derr the riot retard brigade rolls.

Rinky Dinky2 votes

I feel like they really fucked up this time.

All they had to do was give that mana restore on hit to magus.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

RIP Mordekaiser, Akali, and Rumble jungle, which were all quite good.

Provengreil1 votes

I can see cinderhulk morde still seeing some play as an off-meta pick.

NullDragon1 votes

Akali and rumble both can use a lichbane and/or sheen effectively. Rumble frequently buys health and/or a sunfire cape.

Akali having an AoE lichbane far, far earlier in the game(runeglaive is goddamned CHEAP, 200 gold combine cost damn) seems really effective. And for that you trade 40 AP and 10% CDR. Eh?

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I'm just building Cinderhulk or something on Fiddlesticks Nidalee Kayle Lulu Zyra etc now when I play them as Jungle (Yes Lulu and Zyra jungle work, and they actually work very well for some reason.)

Vekkna1 votes

Zyra Taking zero damage in jungle after first camp is why that works.

Her only real weakness is mana sustain in jungle and not having enough to go all-out in ganks. Beyond that, you have to AA champs in ganks anyway to target plant damage. You can also pre-plant W to regen mana without spending any. That's a net gain of 16% mana during a red/blue.

The only real problem is that rushing tear/mobi then finishing Magus pretty much solved your mana problems anyway. At least it will help speed clear early mid game. The super-long AA range is also useful.

Strangely enough, I think that the overall Runeglaive winner is Teemo

Runeglaive + item 3151 item 3116 item 3020 item 3115 item 3085

Murlainn1 votes

{quoted}

Zyra Taking zero damage in jungle after first camp is why that works.

Her only real weakness is mana sustain in jungle and not having enough to go all-out in ganks. Beyond that, you have to AA champs in ganks anyway to target plant damage. You can also pre-plant W to regen mana without spending any. That's a net gain of 16% mana during a red/blue.

The only real problem is that rushing tear/mobi then finishing Magus pretty much solved your mana problems anyway. At least it will help speed clear early mid game. The super-long AA range is also useful.

Strangely enough, I think that the overall Runeglaive winner is Teemo

Runeglaive + item 3151 item 3116 item 3020 item 3115 item 3085

Naw, Devourer is the real winner for Teemo I'm thinking of checking out Runeglaive, but I don't see it outshining Devourer for him.

Vekkna1 votes

It definitely won't outshine Devourer late game, but RG is a major buff to 'shroom jungling. Having enough mana to actually litter the jungle with shrooms with some early CDR and AP is not a small deal. The added burst on a Q>aa>W>aa gank is pretty nice, too.

Plus, the two bolts from Runaan's should apply the aoe magic damage. The split-pushing power from the triple-aoe damage proccing Rylai's 40% slow and Liandry's 12% burn is an on-hit field of doom.

Teridax681 votes

While I do like the fact that Runeglaive gives AP junglers mana sustain and improved clearing power, two bonuses that a lot of them really needed, I seriously question the use of item 3057 as its component. AP playstyles in general are defined by spell usage, and only few AP champions would feel comfortable using their autoattacks while clearing the jungle or spacing out their bursty combos to make the most out of the item. Fewer still would find the item significantly useful out of the jungle, and as you mentioned its Spellblade effect is pretty weak. I also think the item makes no effort to reach out to potentially interesting AP picks that currently struggle to clear the jungle, especially since the change wasn't accompanied by any other improvements to AP jungling. I think it would be good to keep the mana sustain and clear enhancement on the item, but move those effects instead to something more spell-focused, which would appeal universally to all AP junglers in the same way item 3725 appealed to all tanky junglers.

NullDragon1 votes

The spellblade effect has mana in order to artificially inflate the cost on alternate resource users, as their procs aren't gated by mana.

Also it's an AoE lichbane that saves an item slot. Pretty interesting! Might try diana mid(or top) with smite, and jungle karthus with it could be pretty fun.

Lynxonyx1 votes

Why not have both?

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