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@Riot, @Players, Should Elise get a Kit Rework? or Should she be buffed overall?

4NoxiousHours··12 votes·1,259 views

Elise is that one champion who can basically do almost any role except for ADC (before her nerfs). What confuses me about this champion is from what I've read, people in the past have encouraged riot to nerf this champion due to her being too strong throughout the jungle/game. But as of now she has become the most useless jungler to a point where she is placed LAST as a jungle pick.

I feel like this champion is not in need for a buff because it would only bring her back to square one. But to have some sort of kit rework where she is able to do TWO specific roles ONLY. This champion should be a Jungler AND a mid laner. Of course, one or two skills will be kept such as her R and Q but I feel as if her W and E are the ones that are in need of work, including her passive when she's in human form.

There's something about this champion that makes everyone clueless on what can be done for her so that she'll be in a balanced state but I fear that the majority of the people here will disagree on a kit rework due to the tragedy of Cassiopeia , Kassadin , Veigar

I can predict that most of you will not want a kit rework but It all depends on WHO will be in charge of the kit rework. I've seen a thread that had a fair Idea of how her Q can be changed but it's not enough for Elise to become a balanced pick.

**TLDR; Buffing Elise will only bring her back to her OP self and would be a LCS uproar, kit reworking could be a solution to where Elise can become suitable as a jungler and a mid laner who can sustain as a fighter and heavily kill as a mage. **

28 Comments

Keevalroy3 votes

Why not make her cocoon hit multiple targets in a small area? Keep the missile width, but once it hits a target, it traps multiple targets clumped around the contact point. Her damage is a lot lower than it used to be, but considering how reliable her CC would be with this change, maybe it would be for the best if her numbers and scaling went unchanged.

Just an idea.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Why not make her cocoon hit multiple targets in a small area? Keep the missile width, but once it hits a target, it traps multiple targets clumped around the contact point. Her damage is a lot lower than it used to be, but considering how reliable her CC would be with this change, maybe it would be for the best if her numbers and scaling went unchanged.

Just an idea.

But that just exacerbates the problem of her being a stunbot. Cocoon is fine, but no champion should have one good ability. Putting more power into her Cocoon is one of the worst things they could do.

Keevalroy1 votes

{quoted}

But that just exacerbates the problem of her being a stunbot. Cocoon is fine, but no champion should have one good ability. Putting more power into her Cocoon is one of the worst things they could do.

Well, her raw damage was what got her nerfed the first time, and because we're dealing with % damage, that part is touchy to modify, so why not keep it low, but increase the power of her utility that also took a few hits after her damage was crushed?

The multi-target cocoon wouldn't be anything outrageous like a phosphorous bomb area, but more like an area the size of 3-4 minions affected once the cocoon itself lands. That's why the width should be kept to keep it semi-difficult to thread the needle and hit the right target.

If you can manage to fit it through a minion wave, and you end up NOT hitting a champion, and instead a minion that dives in front of them, now what? You can attempt to make the best out of your time spent in the lane and use your crippled rappel and hope to kill them, otherwise, you sulk back into the jungle to try again later. I think you should be rewarded for your good aim.

I see the concern about her being a stunbot, but I think she should be a predator, having a dangerous form of CC. The problem is, it's spammable - maybe increase the cooldown on it?

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Well, her raw damage was what got her nerfed the first time, and because we're dealing with % damage, that part is touchy to modify, so why not keep it low, but increase the power of her utility that also took a few hits after her damage was crushed?

The multi-target cocoon wouldn't be anything outrageous like a phosphorous bomb area, but more like an area the size of 3-4 minions affected once the cocoon itself lands. That's why the width should be kept to keep it semi-difficult to thread the needle and hit the right target.

If you can manage to fit it through a minion wave, and you end up NOT hitting a champion, and instead a minion that dives in front of them, now what? You can attempt to make the best out of your time spent in the lane and use your crippled rappel and hope to kill them, otherwise, you sulk back into the jungle to try again later. I think you should be rewarded for your good aim.

I see the concern about her being a stunbot, but I think she should be a predator, having a dangerous form of CC. The problem is, it's spammable - maybe increase the cooldown on it?

Her base damages got her nerfed. Her scaling has only been buffed, so I'd suggest looking at that. Also, we're not just talking about percentage damage. Elise has more damaging tools than her Qs, so there are other places to buff her damage.

I don't mean to be rude but I don't think you really understand her problems. Making Cocoon more powerful isn't what you need to do to reward her for hitting it. What you need to do to make it more rewarding is make it so she actually has follow up to landing a Cocoon. Predators kill people, not stun them and hope they have nearby allies to kill them.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Cool idea, maybe it sprays out like Lissandra's Q? =]

Keevalroy1 votes

{quoted}

Cool idea, maybe it sprays out like Lissandra's Q? =]

Yeah that was kind of what I was picturing.

tofutime2 votes

They need to decide what they want her to be. If they want her to be a tank/jungler, she needs more CC. She has a skillshot stun that can only hit 1 person and.. that's it. She's largely ignored in teamfights unless she's doing some form of damage.

If they want her to be an assassin/mid like they originally designed her for then she needs less utility. It's not bad giving her a skillshot stun (like xerath) but then her mobility needs to be nerfed. I would put rappel on a much higher cooldown. Then I would amp up her damaging spells and now you have a bursty midlaner. I would fiddle with the idea of making her Q and W weak but getting a damage amp if her stun hits (like nidalee hunted targets)

Abyssphere2 votes

"I feel like this champion is not in need for a buff because it would only bring her back to square one." please don't say that :(

You can buff someone without making them as problematic as they used to be, you just need to buff them in ways other than reverting nerfs. I personally would argue that she was never a viable support and would never be a viable mid/top again without reverting the various nerfs to Neurotoxin, so she's pretty much a dedicated jungler at this stage and I'm pretty sure you can buff her without changing that as long as you don't buff the range/mana on Neurotoxin or increase her base damages (good lord, don't increase her base damages).

My opinion Elise is that she needs some tweaks, but not what I'd call a proper rework. Just some number tweaking. I used to want to nerf her base damages further but increase her scaling to compensate but lately I've actually came to think that her damage is fine, and worth building AP for (who doesn't want to do 26% current health with one spell at 600 AP, or take advantage of the 80% AP ratio on Human W?). The problem is that they nerfed Elise's ability to survive a fight by removing her free spider form tankiness and while I think that was a good idea, I feel they should have compensated her for it. Removing the spider form tankiness effectively made it too dangerous for her to ever go in and forced her to build tanky even more than she would have before. The result? She can't take advantage of her damage at all because the bases were rightfully slashed. They made it so Elise had to build tanky but then made it that she couldn't do anything if she did. She has been left without a job to do.

My idea for a buff? Increase the AP ratio on Skittering Frenzy's heal. Every fighter needs something to help them survive and Frenzy is Elise's tool, but it's just not strong enough to support her consistently spending time in the middle of a fight. If the ratio was increased from 4% to 6%, I think she'd be a lot more willing to go in, but she'd have to build AP to take advantage of it, so it doesn't bring back any of Elise's old problems.

tl;dr: We can buff Elise, but we have to make sure it's in a way that isn't just giving her free stats. Elise as a champion will be a lot more healthy when she actually has to invest into damage to take advantage of her kit and imo buffing her Skittering Frenzy heal is the way to do that.

MrBuffington2 votes

I'm having a hell of a lot of fun with AP Elise in URF, I'd love if changes help support this type of build (AP Bruiser-ish) instead of the tank build she usually takes.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

I'm having a hell of a lot of fun with AP Elise in URF, I'd love if changes help support this type of build (AP Bruiser-ish) instead of the tank build she usually takes.

Really? :o I tried it in Urf and got absolutely destroyed (that said, so did the rest of my team...). My theory was she'd be an amazing splitpusher, but it never even got to that stage of the game. I did have a really good Urf 1v1 versus Cassiopeia with her but after the nightmare in a proper Urf game I had I decided I wouldn't try it again.

(agreed that I hope they push her into AP fighter rather than tank, anyway)

MrBuffington2 votes

I mean, I play her a bit differently in urf; I max W first and kind of play her in lane like a poke mage with her W until an opening arises to all-in (Nidalee is my favorite champion in regular games so this playstyle is pretty natural to me). I did get a little lucky with my teams, though; I wouldn't say Elise is one of those "OP" champions in urf (a reddit thread a few days ago had her urf winrate among the lowest, like 38% or something), definitely powerful though, as is everyone in urf, but especially if you're good with her combos. She does reach a point when you can just pop someone really fast if you're good with her combo, and her stun is ridiculously useful since being CC'd for even a little bit means death in this game mode (secured a lot of kills and saved a lot of teammates with this), not to mention your rappel is just as good or better than Vlad pool in some ways (you're just untargetable, I think, not invulnerable, but it's more difficult to read your movements as long as there are enemy units around. Plus I think AP Elise does more burst than Vlad, and has more range and CC)

It really depends on how good you are at Elise, imo; she has two ways of denying enemies (both her E's), good AoE damage if you max W first and build AP (not to mention it's homing and checks brush, lol), a ton of burst between her Qs and human W, and shreds through towers with her spiderform W. I'd say if you're really good about managing your Es, and especially if you have a Zhonya's, you're pretty much invincible vs a single target, maybe more. I'm not the greatest Elise by any means, but I have some translatable experience on Nidalee (form change + poke -> all-ins, etc), as well as a bit of experience on Elise (not enough to be a good Elise, but enough to be competent), so I'm able to handle myself at least as well (or better than) these first-time band-wagon Zeds or whatever, lol (not to mention nobody expects AP Elise's burst, lol).

Mostly though, she's just fun for me at least; Nidalee isn't as fun in URF for me, I feel like you lose a lot of the interesting dynamics of playing Nidalee and just become that caricature you see everyone complain about, lol. In Urf at least, imo, AP Elise has just as much damage as Nidalee, but is more reliable (W is AoE homing, Qs are targeted), and she has a ton of utility with her Es.

Anyways, as long as Riot is pushing AP bruiser/fighter champions into jungle (Nidalee, Gragas), I'd love to see them support this type of playstyle for more champions (Elise, Diana, Evelynn are obvious candidates, but Teemo would be cool too I think).

Godhri1 votes

Elise has never been a mid laner. She's always been a top or jungler and imo she is still viable in both roles. Especially Top lane. I always dominate my lanes when I go elise top (except against darius, he's a bit tricky and requires more finesse but for the most part, I win lane still). I haven't jungled as Elise yet with her nerfs but I don't think it'll be that much different. She's still very strong.

Sukishoo1 votes

except for ADC

I've done that, it's pretty funny.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

she needs more access to spiders and more access to CDR(lower her cooldowns), then she would be A oh K in my book. she has a single target stun on a 12sec cd? which is a skill shot, and aside from that she doesn't really bring anything else other than "haha blitz pulled a lil spider" (RIP spider bro) to a team fight. if she builds full damage she has to go full ham to do anything. i can understand not wanting to buff her damage, which is understandable, because then she becomes full assassin you got dropped because i landed my stun, but at the same time, she doesn't have any compensatory utility instead of damage, making her currently useless.

Narasimha1 votes

She's not really mid laner material. She's more AP bruiser than mage. Kind of why Gragas migrated to the top lane after his rework.

4NoxiousHours1 votes

{quoted}

She's not really mid laner material. She's more AP bruiser than mage. Kind of why Gragas migrated to the top lane after his rework.

Gragas is like chogath tho, he is made to be a tanky mage. Elise was made out to be tanky but more of a champion who can sustain and inflict heavy damage

Gragas and chogath's kit are ment for team fights/CC while Elise is ment for an individual.

CatSith1 votes

{quoted}

Gragas is like chogath tho, he is made to be a tanky mage. Elise was made out to be tanky but more of a champion who can sustain and inflict heavy damage

Gragas and chogath's kit are ment for team fights/CC while Elise is ment for an individual.

no elise was not made out to be tanky lol. And buffing her late game damage scale would not make her out to be op since its been 3 seasons since her release. New items and heroes are out can counter her. She NEEDS a buff

Partholonian1 votes

I feel like she can't really be a tank with only one skillshot CC that hits at most one person. Tanks have to be able to disrupt a fight enough that they can't be ignored even when they have low damage. What does Elise bring if she has low damage? It's not her ult, because she doesn't have one. Sure she has six basic spells in exchange, but three of her spells do damage and nothing else, and one is an escape with few offensive uses. That leaves her sustain-y buff (great for camps, but lackluster on champions) and the one man (if it isn't one minion or a whiff) stun.

So that leaves her as a mage with some CC, who also has enough sustain to jungle; but as a class, mage junglers aren't in a good place right now, partly because Magus doesn't measure up to Warrior and Cinderhulk.

It might be a good idea to buff Magus and/or Devourer and see what that does to the jungle before making additional champion changes, though. Maybe even only slight buffs -- just the knowledge that something has been buffed leads people to experiment with it more, which might lead to someone discovering that something could actually be decent.

QueenAqua1 votes

eh. I think she is fine the way her kit is. Her q could use a rework i guess, but everything else is fine imo.

Varnoc1 votes

Got a thread up here discussing a kit for her if you're interested.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

She would most likely need a rework since what ruined her was number nerfs. If riot reverted her back she would most likely be a problem again. A gameplay change seems like the better way to go.

junglerboy161 votes

Buffing her in her current state would be like buffing Lee sin. She is such a generalist right now that any numerical buffs that made her viable would very quickly push her into being categorically OP. Personally, I would like it if they reworked her back into the Spider assassin that they intended her to be when they released her.

Solidair31 votes

I would prefer a kit rework, but that's gonna take a long time...

Sirsir1 votes

Her kit is fine, its just weak. I will never understand the logic behind 'Her jungle clear is too safe, lets nerf her only real source of damage.'

Hellioning1 votes

Elise needs a rework. She should not have both %current and %missing HP damage on one kit, especially one that has rappel on it, which is a really strong ability. This is especially true if Riot wants her to lane, because then she can just spam human form Q and wait til the enemy is low before going in.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Elise needs a rework. She should not have both %current and %missing HP damage on one kit, especially one that has rappel on it, which is a really strong ability. This is especially true if Riot wants her to lane, because then she can just spam human form Q and wait til the enemy is low before going in.

What's wrong with having % HP damage?

Riot has explicitly made changes to avoid her laning as a Neurotoxin spambot, they clearly don't want her to do that.

Hellioning1 votes

There's not a problem with having %HP damage, though I'd like for them to avoid it on bruisers, but I don't like how she has damage that is better the higher your health is, and damage that is better the lower your health is.

KarKzz1 votes

With some tweaks , she could be pretty good again.

Passive : Give back some HP to the spiderlings , but make them take more damage agains monsters Q : Put a flat damage ratio (human) (0,4 Damage / 1AP ) Increase the %Missinghp ratio (spider) (currently : 3% / 100AP) -> ( 5% / 100AP) W : Add a small dot on her Z and make the spider scale a bit with bonus MS (30/35/40/45/50%) (human) Increase the damage on-hit by the spiderlings when her Z is active (spider) (40/60/80/100%) E: Make her rappel faster / more responsive. (spider) R : Give her a bit of tenacity in spider form (20% ?) so she can build mpboots

(Could need some testing, maybe a bit too much buffs)

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