I still don't see pros getting Essence Reaver on any champion

atomicwit·Jun 22, 2015·55 votes·4,602 views

I haven't even seen it on Jayce or Ezreal. The BT's extra lifesteal and hefty shield seems to always be preferred. I think the problem isn't just the build path. The main issue is that pros don't see it as slot efficient and find it too expensive. A lot of what it offers isn't direct power and more "nice to have" like the mana return. If a team knows what it's doing, they won't engage or allow engages when one of their members is low on mana. They'll simply time recalls and fights to account for it. Thus, the advantage of the mana return isn't so great in structured play.

My proposed change would be to increase the mana restore from 2-8% to 2-10% of basic attack damage. This would make it much more noticeable at low mana levels. Alternatively, the price could be lowered by 200.

110 Comments

MatezoideJun 22, 201538 votes

The problem with Essence Reaver is that the item has no idea what it wants to be.

It has a late game cost, with an expensive build-path, with an early game passive, while providing no mana until it is complete.

Who would like this item? AD champions that tend to go oom such as Jayce, but why buy this incredibly expensive item when they can just rush a tear and then turn it into a Manamune?

There is just no reason to bother with this item. If you are building it to begin with, it means you want the mana regen, but you arent getting any of it until you just spend like 3k gold. In the mean time you basically turret hug and farm because your lane opponent's power spike came way ealier than yours.

Having to save 1550 gold for your item rush is incredibly crippling for a top laner.

There is no reason to get this item, it is just plainly out-classed in every scenario.

Need the mana early game? Get a Manamune for 2/3 of Essence's price and never go oom while having mana sustain after spending 700 gold.

Need the AD and Life-Steal? Bloodthirster and Hydra have better passives past the early-game. Ruined King if you auto-attack a lot.

Need the CDR? Get a Youmus, Black Cleaver, Brutalizer or even an IBG.

It seriously needs a new build path. Replace the BF Sword with a Mini-Reaver that gives some mana and the 10% CDR and it would be a great item for it's niche...it doesnt even need all that AD.

Bleh my post ended up being bigger than expected...and i might have repeated myself a few times :v

DecritJun 23, 20151 votes

Well i think that the Essence Reaver should be the item to be plummeted down, maybe sacrificing a stat like cdr, and lowering stats and cost, then add something else as an upgrade.

Early item benefits should stay early.

TaarkiJun 23, 20151 votes

We could lower the stats and price to something like 35-40 AD 10% LS, and have a mini passive, while changing the build path and have the price like 1.5k gold, and have it build into another, bigger item.

DecritJun 23, 20152 votes

Not sure about stats or whatelse, but i think that a price tag of 1500 is fair for an item that allows you to stomp the enemy with massive casts ( comparing it to the B.F. sword).

While B.F. allows you to build in a better mid-late the essence could allow you less problems and sustain immediately, with an impact that may change depending on the champion, probably becoming a good item even for mana-hungry tops ( like mao, even if he sorta dislikes AD and is not quite the best example).

SerBlaiseJun 23, 20153 votes

It has a late game cost, with an expensive build-path, with an early game passive, while providing no mana until it is complete.

IE has 'late game cost'.... and is built first on most adcs. I don't think cost is the issue. I think the idea behind it is that it builds out of BFS which is extremely good to rush, and thus it HAS to be as expensive as the other BFS items or else EVERYONE would rush it. The issue with tear is that it doesn't offer any real pressure in lane. yes you can spam out spells...but honestly if you are good with mana management and aiming you can get away with not building a mana item in laning phase. I've learned to do that mid lane with Diana, by trading off mana+CDR for raw AP power.

I dont think the % return on ER is enough though. IMO it should have a charge system like item 3092 or really more like item 3401 . The problem with % mana return is that for 2% of say, 160 AD (Probably what you will be close to when you get ER) is a miserably small 3.2 mana. you could buy a item 1004 and have better mana sustain. even at 8% at 160 AD you get a whopping 12.8 mana back.

As I see it, ER should give mana back for damage dealt by ALL single target spells and auto attacks that hit nuteral/ enemy units, instead of just autos and onhits. You should be rewarded for hitting your skill shots as jayce or ezeral, and punished for missing, and maybe it needs a flat amount of mana return to go with it.

MatezoideJun 23, 20154 votes

A good point, but there are a few differences that explain the IE thing:

ADCs are encouraged to farm early game, more so than any other class.
ADCs are ranged. This means that even if an ADC is behind in lane, he can last hit effectively. While in top lane, if you are behind as a melee, you are gonna have a shitty time getting CS.
IE's passive is actually useful later in the game. If Essence were to be rushed, it would be finished by the time laning phase is over, which severely hurts it's use. IE, as an item, is far more relevant through every stage of the game.
There is no other item in the game that fills IE's niche, while Essence is generally inferior to other, similar items.
ADCs also get their own, personal slave to keep them safe and ward the area.

BFS rushing isnt quite as good top-lane because of it's cost and lack of a recipe. It means you literally need to back with at least 1550 gold.

While you try to get for that goal, you end up getting less wards and potions, while your opponent freely builds anything he wants. This isnt as much of a problem bot, where you are supposed to be farming, but in top it puts you into a severe disvantage.

Nobody rushes BFS top because of that. ADs that dont care for mana would much rather get a Brutalizer, Phage or Tiamat first.

FantasySniperJun 24, 20151 votes

Actually, it bases it off almost exactly like lifesteal, so dealing 800 DPS (Not unheard of at full build) means 16-64 mana per second, greatly outperforming the mana cost on spells by the time they come off CD.

Sire HippingtonJun 24, 20151 votes

just that by the time you get ER and need the mana sustain the most, you will have far less dps. With fullbuilt, most ADC really don't have mana issues unless it's a really drawn out fight, and with 800+ dps it isn't a huge problem if AAs are all that's left for you.

However, for any champ that dopesn't go for raw damage, it isn't really worth to even consider ER, and it doesn't give you great sustain by the time you'd need it most, which would be early-mid.

FantasySniperJun 25, 20151 votes

Unlimited mana is still plenty useful near the end of the game. Sivir, Ashe, Jinx, Ezreal, and even Caitlyn can blow their mana just poking. (Caitlyn's traps actually take a large chunk, too) They also rely on mana to make sure they can escape if they can't kite.

The problem with ER is that: to provide that resource to a playstyle balanced around the idea of having to sacrifice damage just to get to use their spells more often is pretty unhealthy. Early or even mid game, an item providing so much direct and indirect damage output without a limit is not balanced.

They could add spell-vamp, maybe. That way, most of what one is missing by using spells over basics is going to be replaced by having spell-vamp as well as lifesteal.

Sire HippingtonJun 26, 20151 votes

unlimited mana is nice, but it doesn't make up for the survivabillity a BT gives in the late. Adding Spellvamp would certainly help, but probably it would help to much. There isn't much that ER lacks to be viable, just a bit like a smoother built pather or good mana sustain from the moment you finish it.

SerBlaiseJun 24, 20151 votes

Yeah this item is meant to be for ad spell casters, so I feel like the reliance on Auto attacks is slightly misplaced. yes, ezreal and jayce do autos attacks, but you don't GET an ER to boost that part of your kit...you get it for the mana sustain. I'd like to see more emphasis on AD spell slinging instead.

Rew711Jun 24, 20151 votes

I always build ER. Its the first item I build on any ADC. I can seriously poke a lot of damage and turn around with some spells then regain mana and land some more spells. I also always get it on Jayce since he already has a mana regen passive that works wonders in farming. Ezreal doesn't need it if he's going AP, but if AD, I'd get it just for both the AD and mana regen. People should try it more.

Mellow RushJun 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Essence Reaver is that the item has no idea what it wants to be.

Yup. It's an item for AD Casters, who need mana to use their abilities, but who need to auto attack to get that mana back. At some point it simply becomes more efficient to buy homeguard boots and just recall if you really want to fill your mana bar.

What Essence Reaver needs isn't a new build path necessarily, but rather it needs to give mana back when dealing AD damage period.

MatezoideJun 24, 20151 votes

Good call, i forgot about that part.

Yet another advantage for Muramana. You actually get extra mana regen (As opposed to Essence, which is Passive-only) and is rewarded for actually using abilites.

ProfDrDeathJun 23, 20157 votes

ER's quintessential problem is in the fact that item 3072 , the item it shares its build path with, is simply stronger in almost every situation.

And a crappy buildpath it is, too, with not only one, but two major gold expenses (building BF and completing the item). On an item you'd want ASAP to make use of its power as soon as possible.

Three ways it could be improved, imo:

Add to the recipe, and keep the +50% mana regen increase. Would explain where the mana component and the CdR come from, give a useful item for laning, and not too harshly impact its effects as a combined item.
Alternatively, increase Lifesteal to 15% or so. To make it more competitive with BT.
Third way would be to add a passive that improves its Lifesteal by 1% for every 5% HP you're missing. Essentially, making it fill-up item for both HP and mana, and set it apart from Bloodthirster as a keep-you-topped-with-some-extra item.

WillHealForHonorJun 22, 20156 votes

Nah man u need to return mana on spells not on aa.. Because the item is for poke imo.. And if u poke ur not en aa range.. And when the fight breaks out the poke is done.. So the extra mana doesnt matter imo..

Laughing FishJun 22, 20152 votes

Exactly. I think it should return mana on all physical damage.

Sightless66Jun 23, 20151 votes

Well, they wanted it to be an ADC item, and if they were going to make it work on all physical damage, then they'd have to rebalance it around the mana hungry assassins who may like the item more than the AD caries. It might still be the best path to take the item in, but it would be a pretty strong failure of the goal of increasing ADC item choices.

OyddAWqJ5rJun 23, 20152 votes

It was actually meant to be an AD caster item for champions like Jayce and Pantheon, which includes AD caster-based ADC's such as Ezreal and Corki.

It was made moreso for those mana hungry assassins like Talon more than it was made to be an ADC item for someone like say Jinx.

Sightless66Jun 23, 20152 votes

When they released the item, they talked about it being an option for champions such as Graves, Lucian, Corki, Ezreal, even Caitlyn or Draven (not for every ADC obviously, but for every caster or mana reliant ADC before any non-ADCs). They said that they had the mana return as a percentage of autoattack damage because it would limit how effectively certain AD casters could use it, because they would do a much lower percentage of their damage as autoattacks and would therefore get less mana sustain from the item. Heck, they actually introduced it as part of the 4.10 update to ADC itemization, with the stated goal of improving ADC item choices. Riot wanted it to be more effective for someone like Graves or Lucain than it would be for Talon. They failed because the item is poorly design, but that was their goal.

So, they didn't make it for Talon or Pantheon. They made it for ADCs. That it is more effective on Talon or Panthon than on ADCs shows how badly they screwed the design up, even though it isn't good on them either.

DurzakaJun 22, 20155 votes

Exactly, it is an item that exists to solve a problem that no one actually has. So no one is going to build it.

YakshaJun 22, 20155 votes

Or they could just let it rot in the store until they make a champ that can use it efficiently Kind of like Kalista with Hurricane

RueianJun 22, 20154 votes

Jinx rockets are free GP likes the item Ez likes the item

It is just under tuned so it doesn't replace BT

MyozthirirnJun 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Or they could just let it rot in the store until they make a champ that can use it efficiently Kind of like Kalista with Hurricane

Kayle used hurricane too.. until she got nerfed to trash

Painted CeltJun 23, 20154 votes

I feel like Essence Reaver needs a more convenient build path. AD casters tend to peak midgame, and investing in an Essence Reaver feels quite gimping. I would like to see the BF Sword replaced by a Brutalizer now that Brutalizer no longer builds into Black Cleaver. Some AD could be removed from the Essence Reaver to balance out the addition of flat Armor Pen from the Brutalizer component. I don't think any other change would be necessary.

item 3508 = item 3134 + item 1037 + item 1053 + 333g (Total Cost 3,345g; up from 3,200g) Essence Reaver ~~+80~~ ⇒ +70 Attack Damage +10% Life Steal +10% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Passive: Restores 2% to 8% of the damage dealt by basic attacks as Mana. This effect increases based on missing Mana. *NEW* UNIQUE Passive: +15 Armor Penetration

(Armor Penetration: Physical damage is increased by ignoring an amount of the target's Armor equal to Armor Penetration.)

Worth a try, eh?

Celeste BenalJun 23, 20152 votes

This idea is not without merit.

Occams RaiserJun 23, 20152 votes

another item that can't be balanced

AbyssphereJun 23, 20152 votes

There are a catalog of problems with it but the main one is that it's an item that's massively oriented towards the early game but CANNOT realistically be completed at that point because even ADCs that cast a lot need the Infinity Edge rush. If it had a mini version of itself in its build path then I could see people delaying their Edge by a bit to get the mini Reaver, then combine that to Essence Reaver instead of Bloodthirster later on, but right now it just makes no sense to build it at any point in the game because by the time you can afford to build the item, you no longer need it.

Particularly the fact that it's a lifesteal item greatly hinders it. Bloodthirster is generally bought third or even fourth and by that point your mana is quite simply not an issue, so if you buy B.F. Sword and Vamp Scepter it's very difficult to convince yourself to combine those into Essence Reaver rather than Bloodthirster, which is soooooo much better at that point in the game.

IMO it needs significant work or it may as well be deleted. There's very little about the item that's actually right, but a near endless list of stuff that's wrong. I can think of very few items that are as badly designed as this.

PartholonianJun 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

because even ADCs that cast a lot need the Infinity Edge rush.

ISTM that this is the real problem. No one item should be 100% mandatory first item for an entire class, and yet, it pretty much is. That's what shuts out other itemization options.

And then it constrains champion options too. The few whose kits work really well with BOTRK... are hardly played at all, because they don't abuse IE well enough. AD casters in general get IE if someone plays them at all, but aren't as good with it as autoattackers like Jinx, so you don't see them as much.

IE needs a nerf to open up other itemization paths for marksmen. There's little prospect for changes to ER itself to improve anything until that happens.

AbyssphereJun 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

ISTM that this is the real problem. No one item should be 100% mandatory first item for an entire class, and yet, it pretty much is. That's what shuts out other itemization options.

And then it constrains champion options too. The few whose kits work really well with BOTRK... are hardly played at all, because they don't abuse IE well enough. AD casters in general get IE if someone plays them at all, but aren't as good with it as autoattackers like Jinx, so you don't see them as much.

IE needs a nerf to open up other itemization paths for marksmen. There's little prospect for changes to ER itself to improve anything until that happens.

Agreed 100%. Even if Infinity Edge was changed so that it was a strong third to fourth item (like Deathcap for mages) that'd be a massively healthy change. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure how they can do that, it'd probably need changes to the critical strike system.

Champion SkinJun 24, 20151 votes

Well it might be better if it gave 20% CDR as then it would at least give more damage/utility (Steroids and or utility abilities)

like having Sivir ult or Ashe ult on a lower cooldown would be rather significant as they are very potent abilities which has the ability to turn the game around

However they generally don't have a good way of getting CDR and it usually isn't worth the damage loss The only possibilities are Ghostblade item 3142 Essence Reaver item 3508 and Lucidity boots item 3158 And non of them are all that great or optimal (Ghostblade is actually good if the fights are short and you have the activate)

And even then Bloodthirster would likely be better because of it's sustain and survivability (from the life steal and shield)

TransgressorJun 23, 20152 votes

Nobody cares what the pros pick. The item has fundamental problems that have nothing to do with its pickrate by pros. The whole playerbase has issues with it, which have nothing to do with a ridiculusly small percentage of well organized groups of players which play under different circumstances.

atomicwitJun 23, 20156 votes

You don't understand. The pros not picking it isn't what makes ER unattractive. The pros don't pick it because there are better choices. We look to pro play because the items they choose generally reflects well on their strength. They can demonstrate how obscure items and champions can be strong in certain niches or compositions. No one has taken up that mantle for ER even though we've seen everything from jungle TF to mid Hecarim and Irelia.

Wînter FoxJun 23, 20152 votes

Riot made a slew of terrible decisions with ER:

Increased the price, made it an ADC item with a component, and made it compete with
Never went through with the "Mini-reaver" change which was on the PBE
Screwed over who could use a niche AD caster item w/ a mana passive

ZylotheWolfbaneJun 23, 20152 votes

Personally I think that Essence Reaver's mana-reaving thing needs to work like Spellvamp does. Say like, 10% mana return of damage dealt from single target abilities, and auto attacks, then reduced effectiveness from AoE and DoT abilities. If it's JUST from auto attacks, it really doesn't benefit nearly as many people if it ONLY works on auto attacks, and even on those people, countless other items are better choices.

Champion SkinJun 24, 20151 votes

Why would you reduce the effectiveness of DoT abilities? They would pretty much do the same as single target abilties just that they would need more time before giving you much mana back

ZylotheWolfbaneJun 24, 20151 votes

I'm just going off of the way Spellvamp currently works. You could very well just have the full reaving on DoTs, but if you're just gunna make it like Spellvamp is now, they reduce it on DoTs. Dunno why, but they do.

Champion SkinJun 24, 20151 votes

Spell vamp has full effect on DoTs

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_vamp

"Damage over time abilities (DoT) apply full spell vamp. (e.g. Brand's Blaze and Malzahar's Malefic Visions)."

DrackolusJun 23, 20152 votes

It synergizes well with item 3042 , since the active takes from CURRENT mana, so the more mana you can sustain, the more damage you can do. Unfortunately, nice though that combo is, ER still just doesn't give you enough damage, and that extra damage you'd get from the passive only helps after you'd have spent a decent amount of mana. Also, it really only helps Ezreal .

decembraJun 23, 20152 votes

Reimagined, item 3508 could be the counterpart to item 3165 . Make it build from item 3134 + item 3114 , with a Grievous Wound passive and the same type of mana regeneration. I'm concerned that a bump to 20% CDR might be a bit much, but it does make more sense here than on item 3071 . The lifesteal should just be dropped.

Celeste BenalJun 23, 20152 votes

The mana return needs to be better. A lot better. I tried it on Corki because his mana pool is absolute dog-crap. ITs a nice sustain item on him. But its just too expensive for what it gives. Kind of like Spell-Vamp.

KazaLyn ShaoJun 23, 20152 votes

3200 gold. 'Nuff said. Why get it over BT which has more lifesteal and a way better passive? "Oh boy! A droplet of mana! Now if only I had that extra 10% life steal and shield..." It's worthless, and it costs an arm and a leg to complete. I could have complete BotRK by then and be wrecking face.

Sire HippingtonJun 24, 20151 votes

BotrK costs exactly as much(with a more convinient built path though) with 3200g, it's actually rather cheap compared to similar items.

Blue Moon WolfJun 23, 20152 votes

I would use it all the time, especially for mana hungry adc's like Sivir . but item 3072 is so much more useful and I only have enough room for one Item that costs over 3000 gold with lifesteal in it. quite honestly, it's only problem is . if it didn't exist, item 3508 would be used a lot more. this calls for one thing... an update for 's Icon :p

FantasySniperJun 23, 20152 votes

How about 20% CDR?

It's whole thing is being the caster-oriented poke-machine.

Or maybe something really crazy like building it out of Sheen?

DEmperor95Jun 24, 20152 votes

I think the best way to make the item an attractive choice vs similar items is by increasing the CDR it gives to 20%. I don't mind a bit less AD, less Lifesteal, or higher cost to balance the item.

DirkTarTarJun 22, 20151 votes

Agreed, ER needs a change, but I think it should just drop the whole mana recover thing altogether and become a different item of the same name...

Essence Reaver is one bad as fuck name...

The problem is, however, that anyone that would absolutely need an AD item to recover mana, that isn't an ADC already rushing IE or BT, is that they are already building tear to manamune, which mostly solves their mana issues.

You could, however, make the argument that Essence Reaver could be a great substitute for Manamune if it is buffed and tweaked to the right spot, which does seem like a plausible and realistic ideal.

Slamurai JackJun 23, 20152 votes

I personally get ER on Ezreal instead of Manamune. I hate having to concede the laning phase by getting a tear, and the poke isn't that much weaker than you get with Muramana. Plus you get another 10% CDR, which is a plus.

RangoTangoGankoJun 24, 20151 votes

Its a useless item that can use heavy over hall on to become great. not many adcs are focused on mana to like u just have to auto.

Jeanne fan clubJun 24, 20151 votes

The item is actually good on ADC Ezreal because of its cool down reduction, not to mention its synergy with the fully stacked manamune. (can't think of its name :P)