Long Death Timers Actually Extend Pro Games

atomicwit·Feb 19, 2016·108 votes·3,156 views

Since one teamfight is GG, they are playing SO INCREDIBLY RISK AVERSE! Instead of fighting, they dance around each other for 15 minutes because they're terrified of having a single mistake decide the game.

I like the tension it creates but I think it must be terrible to play them. Even with a massive gold lead, you know that one screw up is GG. Check out the last SKT loss. They failed to end and then the enemy team just walked through mid to get every turret and end the game. This was despite having to face super minions.

27 Comments

AMYS GRAVEFeb 19, 201648 votes

Long death timers and nerfed vision has lead to the super safe play. But riot isn't doing shit about it because they wanted more exciting games and are ignoring the fact that their changes did the opposite.

AnidanFeb 19, 20169 votes

This is opposed to the polar opposite wherein it was the Vision Wars, and everyone was super safe because vision was goddamn everywhere.

That happy medium that existed for a bit was nice.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 19, 20169 votes

Sweepers that could target stealth champs and pink trinkets were a wonderful thing.

Thin AirFeb 19, 201616 votes

I think it's pretty ridiculous. I don't see how it could have been thought that making LESS information and harder punishment for mistakes would make for more exciting game. You want to know what happens when you make it easier to punish for mistakes? What we have now. DotA 2 from what I've seen is the same way because of how hard you get punished for dying. Their games are an ETERNITY and it feels like almost the whole game players are split pushing, carries are farming and supports are walking wards. Literally. That's the way League is now except supports aren't walking wards. You just see people getting tons of CS and each team dancing around each other.

It just baffles me that thinking that harder punishment would make teams want to be more risky and take more chances. That makes absolutely zero sense to me. On top of that Riot even made towers super squishy too so they die super fast as well!

BRBGTGBOWFLEXFeb 19, 20161 votes

Less information does make better games.

Before there was too much ability to massively control vision and then slowly strangle an opponent.

Now the issue is more about death timers than vision. Also the low interaction tower-trades which are the worst.

A5W9VPIhgQFeb 21, 20161 votes

I think its harder to play a good chess game blind.

BRBGTGBOWFLEXFeb 21, 20161 votes

That's one of those things that sounds smart but falls apart on analysis.

It's not a great analogy, since Information is not an game element in chess whereas it is in League of Legends. There is no fog of war in chess and fog of war or lack of information is an important part of League of Legends.

It's impossible to play a good poker game when you can see all the cards and providing full vision in poker would eliminate everything that makes that game interesting, remove the psychological/probability dimensions, and turn it into a game won or lost on cards dealt alone.

In Season 3 we had the Ward Bot Support meta and teams overpowered other teams with full vision. In Season 4/5, the winning team would strangle the other team with vision and make the game entirely one-sided.

Vision needs to be a conscious strategy and decisions need to be made based on available information. Making information too complete removes strategic options and harmed League of Legends.

A5W9VPIhgQFeb 22, 20161 votes

you also give a bad analogy, you are implying that league cannot be interesting when there is less fog of war. you think more options = better gameplay, and we both know thats not always true

you state that in season 4/5 winning team would strangle the other team with vision, but thats been like that since season 2 and probably before then. its a mechanic that would help the winning team, just like everything else if you are winning. (you also strangle the other team with, gold,xp,towers,presence)

you say there was to much ability to strangle an opponent. but isn't that true for both sides? you want less vision but even though season 6 has 2 types of wards that can stay in the game for ever, its still less vision then there was in season 2/3

honestly, I would recommend more vision, simply because there's a chance of people using maphacks in league, more vision would even out that playing field.

KarKzzFeb 19, 20165 votes

Late S5 was awesome to play. And nothing that the bans couln't take care of.

But since the S6, bruisers are out of control, most mid and top picks are early champions with low counterplay, most of them are bruisers, even AD assassins mid that get shitton of Arpen while building like bruisers. There is so much things to ban that it's hard to decide. Most of the people i know stopped league, or reduced their play time a LOT. They used to play at least 3 game / day.

kaltenashesFeb 19, 20164 votes

Immortals had a pretty fun game against Cloud 9 and thats all, the rest of the games are boring just like in soloq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdF1K9DRbco

at least Riot is happy with death timers "have this free homeguard and enjoy watching ~~ playing~~ the game"

iainB85Feb 19, 20164 votes

These low KDA, tower trading, farm fest games are incredibly boring to watch. I haven't watched much live LCS because of it. If there happens to be one actual exciting game the entire day then I can just catch a rebroadcast of that one. Not sitting through hours of PvE League of Legends gameplay, sorry.

ItsCalledALanceFeb 19, 20164 votes

not to mention its boring as shit to watch.

they are literally doing NOTHING but bobbing an weaving for 20 minutes straight.

oh look another LCS game with 400 farm on everyone, and NOTHING ELSE!

Starfish HFeb 19, 20163 votes

I honestly like the idea of one mistake costs the whole team in LCS. However, this is sorta over doing it with literally one mistake at 15 min and the enemy wins. If it was like 30 then yeah be my guest that's great.

Occams RaiserFeb 19, 20162 votes

this doesn't seem right. One mistake could be an aced team fight. Or it could be one death witch at 15 is meaningless with most teams. outside of high MMR. People get an advantage and go for first drag instead of taking two mid turrets.

TotalisFeb 19, 20162 votes

I TOTALLY disagree. First off, these past few weeks in LCS the games have been ending much quicker. Last season a game that starts at 5:00 would be lucky to start at 5:30. Now it's closer to 5:20. Games have been ending quicker, and two (or three) weeks ago Dash even mentioned on Sunday that Saturday was one of the quickest finishes in LCS history. Statistics have shown that games are ending much quicker this season in pro play around the world. So I REALLY don't know where you got any of this.

GenghisEmoFeb 20, 20162 votes

They do end quicker. But they are more boring.

TotalisFeb 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

They do end quicker. But they are more boring.

C9 vs IMT was one of the most exciting games i've ever seen

GenghisEmoFeb 20, 20162 votes

the only good game of S6.

S4 and S5 have exponentially more exciting games by now XD

TotalisFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the only good game of S6.

S4 and S5 have exponentially more exciting games by now XD

Thats just a difference of opinion. Personally I think the games have been more exciting this season. The last two seasons were all 40 minute long games where 30 minutes was spent clearing wards and teams staring at each other until 1 got an engage they were looking for. Far too often the only time teams clashed where when they were contesting baron or dragon. I kid you not, I distinctly remember multiple games where teams only had teamfights at dragon and baron pits.

This season they find more picks, move faster, fight faster and end faster. I like it more this way.

GenghisEmoFeb 20, 20162 votes

By more picks i only see "one pick" and then it snowballs into an Ace and gg. One death or two and 2 mid towers down, possibly even free drag and a 3rd tower.

Not really exciting.

Back then, S5, you fight pretty much all the time. Idk why you didnt notice the 3 man tower dive before ppl got their ults. The invades. The jungle ganks, counter ganks, tps, counter tps, were awesome. Yes tp was too game changing, but it was exciting. Now you dont see things as much, too risk averse.

Only tension is present, but the tension from before is gone.

EDIT: Even the Chinese, who were doing flashy plays and risky stuff all the time have toned it down so much they try to copy EU Lane Swaps and Tower Shoving (which is a great tactic, but Chinese have yet to do it right or efficiently that it is a pain to watch). Now you get First Blood far into the game, which is at odds to how it use to be in S5.

You would think the best of the best Koreans would also be as exciting, but when i do happen to watch it, it isn't as exciting anymore. Sure i dont fall asleep while watching it like say Chinese LCK, but not as exciting (now i watch LoL on Twitch on TV to fall asleep when i cant sleep XD).

TotalisFeb 21, 20161 votes

you and I clearly remember season 5 differently. "you fight pretty much all the time", now im sure youre bullshitting me, cause this never happened, except in Korean games. Teams RARELY fought in season 5, except a small trade 2 for 2 or 2 for 3 or something like that every now and then, followed by one teamfight in the end. Teams fight way more now and that Im sure of.

And the tp's were exciting you say? sure as hell weren't for me. Teleport was prioritized way too much, and the only time anyone actually did anything was with a tp play. It was BORING

GenghisEmoFeb 21, 20161 votes

And Tp plays were often.

The Level 2 or 3, 3v1 and 4v1, tower dives were also often.

You think there was no fighting, but there was. Reason was simple, there was vision of the enemy team more often than not for both at first. So you saw "enemy jg elsewhere, let's dive" and then as one team got more vision they would do some other crazy shit. Now you see a dance until one mistake costs you the game. Back then, you can mess up and still come back. Now you mess up once and lose.

Enemy ganking, tp into it. Enemy ganking, counter gank. Counter tp. Sick Azir plays. etc. Now there isnt a point for the most mechanically demanding champs to be used. No need for flashy plays. Just sit back, stay safe, peel for that one dude, and win the fight. Which is so generic. Before you protect 3 carries, now it seems you only protect one (FNC's play to defend Rekkles was the only thing they needed to do). While before you had midlane to worry about, adc to aid, and top was even able to carry. Now the only time you defend top, is Fiora carries (cause jaugernaut is just so freaking powerful).

Had IMT been in S5, i honestly think games would have possibly been more exciting, but lucky them that it is a snowball meta more than ever before and having two of the best Koreans in IMT just gives them free wins this meta, as before it was more teambased even with the best players out there).

Minion wave manipulation would have offered some funny Soaz-xPeke backdoor-gating plays. So great combacks or offered a better chance at punishing a Dragon call, or a bad baron call. Now waves push themselves, offering a really bad, hard to come back, scenario that is rarely ever overcomed. There is no tension anymore, you know when someone will win. No real point in seeing the game. Or if both are even, the last five minutes go bad for one team, and there, it is over from a single mistake and super long deathtimers. 50 or 60 second deathtimers at 26 and 28 minutes? From one teamfight?

When you think "more fights" you mean, more tilting losing teams. They lose the one team fight, now they are desperate to delay the inevitable.

The days of fighting all the time for drag, baron, manipulating waves, gates, backdoors, strategic outplays are over. Now we only see get lucky, be mechanically superiour in one big fight, or be better than your opponent (cause we know RNG is the least skilled team, while IMT is the best), get the win.

No other things need be involved. Just 3 factors. In S5 and S4, you could be worse as individuals and somehow out outmaneuver your foe, and still somehow pull it off. It didnt happen all the time, since teams were still inexperienced and still made bad calls, but it did happened often enough you loved rooting for the underdog. Now there is no point for the undredog.

Now the game wins it for you more than before in Pro level play. There is little room for anything else.

I loved seeing a 3 man towerdive early in the game. Now ppl stay away from defending towers, unless they are losing already and are getting desperate. Now i just see 4 on one team rushing to shove a tower (top or bot tier one), then they switch to the opposite side to do the same. Both times, uncontested. As before, it was contested by non-EU and most NA teams (while LCK and LPL seemed to contest it more, now they too dont want to contest towers, they just allow a tower to be lost, to gain a tower, as in S5 and 4 you shove one tower down while attempting to defend the other).

GenghisEmoFeb 20, 20162 votes

Games are boring right now. Some tension yes, but they dont want to fight anymore. S4 and S5 had sone great freaking matches, yes some were boring but i was hooked most of the time. Now they r quite boring

Occams RaiserFeb 19, 20161 votes

i like high death timers. I don't die that much and I like the ability to capitalize off stupidity. I consider it a failure if I die more than 6 time per game. the only Exception is having double the kills. In that case 10 is too many.

Jet SettFeb 20, 20161 votes

SKT LOST!?!? WHHAAAAAAAAAAT!? No but seriously, I was under the impression by the community that SKT was literally invincible.

Hyrum GraffFeb 20, 20161 votes

Ghostcrawler has responded to a comment like this. Source.

We have found it increasingly difficult to encourage pros to play aggressively instead of conservatively. Playing more conservatively frequently seems like the only response. For example, if champions are worth more gold, pros play conservatively because they don't want to give that gold to the other team. If champions are worth less gold, pros play conservatively because there is no reason to risk an early kill. :(

We do worry that towers may be a little weak, at least for pros, and we're discussing if there is a change we can make that doesn't affect the non-pro scene as much. We'd also love to discourage lane swapping, but it's challenging to do that without something really heavy-handed.