THANK YOU PRAISE RITO!

Mira Arya Enthe·Nov 19, 2016·7 votes·1,686 views

http://i.imgur.com/Fo3EJ3M.jpg

FINALLY! They fixed the damn TAG!

Only error is "Damage Physical" I vary between 40-60% magic damage and 40-60% physical damage depending on build and matchups.

42 Comments

LankPantsNov 19, 20163 votes

That's circle's a pretty accurate example of what Shyvana's current strengths are. She has OK damage and durability, but really shit all else. Her damage and durability are not a justification for picking her, she's in every way worse than a champ like Amumu or Hecarim and the only reason to pick her is if you enjoy her.

The fact that she only has 3 ticks on the circle while most meta junglers have 5 or so is completely correct. She's an outclassed champ and her changes on the PBE do not address this.

Mira Arya EntheNov 19, 20164 votes

Go ahead, play Amumu. Whenever I face him his complete lack of damage and the fact that I don't buy AD making his E passive worthless, I walk all over him. You literally just show up wherever he ganks, in his jungle, at his dragons and punch him to death. He has no effective counter for Shyvana other than relying on his team, and everyone can/cannot rely on their team just like everyone else.

I do far more damage than Hecarim by mid/late game. He has more ganking power. But I can kill him. I also clear jungle fast which means more gold too. Split push better. Team fight worse.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 19, 20162 votes

This.

She's also an effective counter to junglers who stack health like Zac.

Her E passive lets her shred him.

LankPantsNov 19, 20162 votes

Do you know who else is an effective counter to health stacking junglers? Amumu with his W. That's a really poor counter to my argument.

Hell, Zac is an effective counter to health stacking junglers. Sejuani is too. So is Mundo. The best counters to health stacking junglers are health stacking junglers. Well the best after Elise and Lee Sin anyway.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 19, 20162 votes

Okay. That's true.

But Shyv does her health shredding on hit. This is faster tham amumu's ticks.

Combined with her W giving her more damage on her AAs, unless the amumu builds AP there is no way he can even come close to her damage output.

There is no doubt he brings more utility to a team, but she brings more damage. Mixed damage as opposed to amumu's almost solely magix damage.

LankPantsNov 19, 20162 votes

He has no effective counter for Shyvana other than relying on his team, and everyone can/cannot rely on their team just like everyone else.

He can avoid her, it's not that important anyway because what I'm talking about isn't Amumu VS Shyvana in a game, it's choosing between the two. Amumu doesn't lack damage, champ.gg has him listed at within 1k damage of Shyvana per game. Amumu's damage shouldn't really be in question though, considering he has two pure damage abilities. If Amumu lacks damage that means that both Despair and Tantrum must be atrociously undertuned.

Whenever I face him his complete lack of damage and the fact that I don't buy AD making his E passive worthless

You misunderstand Amumu's E passive. Simple logic needs to be applied here. If you deal 10 damage and it gets reduced by 2 you deal 8 damage, 80%. If you deal 100 damage and it gets reduced by 2 you deal 98 damage, 98%. Amumu's E counters AS stackers, not AD stackers.

He has no effective counter for Shyvana other than relying on his team

Shyvana has no counter to Amumu other than relying on her team either. If he ever catches you in ult WTF can you actually do. You can't attack a target even if you were in ult, it's an entangle so it denies you that ability and unlike almost every other jungler in the game you actually don't have options to deal with an Amumu engage. You don't have a CC to slow him down and let your team position outside of his ult. You don't have a way to dodge out of his ult and kill him like a Yi or Nocturne does. You're entirely at the mercy of your team in an Amumu engage.

I do far more damage than Hecarim by mid/late game.

I've legit never seen a Shyvana outdamage a Hecarim mid-late. He has insane Triforce Synergy. That alone makes his damage higher than Shyv's. Shyv has slightly higher targeted damage if Hec only goes one damage item but Hecarim just spews damage everywhere. If Hec goes double damage he tends to outdamage any reasonable Shyvana build in even single target situations. In teamfights Rampage, Cinder and SoD just deal too much AOE damage for Shyv to keep up.

Split push better.

Splitpushing junglers without TP is a terrible idea. You inherently leave Baron or Dragon open and leave your team vulnerable to 4v5s. Shyv can't instakill towers like a Yi could either. It's too risky to be relied on IMO.

Mira Arya EntheNov 19, 20162 votes

You don't know wtf a Shyvana is. Her damage isn't from AD at all is the point. Her E gives her % on hit magic damage, her W gives her flat on hit magic damage, and she buys on hit damage. His E passive does nothing to that.

If you don't even know the basic sources of her damage, I can't expect to have a serious conversation as you know nothing about the champion to begin with.

LankPantsNov 20, 20162 votes

You don't know wtf a Shyvana is. Her damage isn't from AD at all is the point. Her E gives her % on hit magic damage, her W gives her flat on hit magic damage, and she buys on hit damage. His E passive does nothing to that.

His E damage does the exact same thing to every single auto attack in the game. If you attack for 10 it's -2-10. If you attack for 1000 it's -2-10. If you attack for 50 physical and 50 magic it's -2-10.

The reason why Amumu's E passive is good against Shyvana is that it reduces her AA damage by 10 every time she attacks. If you attack 10 times he reduces 100 damage, it doesn't matter if your damage is split, the physical portion of your attack is reduced by more than someone who attacks less.

If you don't even know the basic sources of her damage, I can't expect to have a serious conversation as you know nothing about the champion to begin with.

Son I almost definitely know more about Shyvana than you. I've been playing her since her release at least a little. I don't play her much now because she's pure garbage, after the PBE changes she'll be borderline unplayable.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

The reason why Amumu's E passive is good against Shyvana is that it reduces her AA damage by 10 every time she attacks. If you attack 10 times he reduces 100 damage, it doesn't matter if your damage is split, the physical portion of your attack is reduced by more than someone who attacks less.

You're completely leaving out her magic damage.

The point of her post was to remind you that since she does more magic than physical damage, and according to the wiki Amumu takes reduced physical damage from attacks. Shyv honestly couldn't care less. Her max health magic damage wouldn't be reduced in the slightest.

Her point is that she can counterjungle Amumu so hard because she can outduel him and take his camps. This is the point here. You can't stand there and tell me Amumu can outduel Shyvana.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

I'm not completely leaving out her magic damage, it just doesn't matter. If Shyv's autos dealt 100 Phys damage Amumu's passive would reduce them to 90 damage. If Shyv's AAs deal 50 phys and 50 magic Amumu's passive reduces to 40 phys and 50 magic, 90 damage.

The only real factor in the value of Amumu's passive is the total damage dealt and the AS you have. It's going to be a similar reduction to your total damage as long as you deal some physical damage on your AA. Because Shyvana tries to attack fast she procs the passive repeatedly, giving Amumu his E faster and running into higher levels of flat damage reduction.

Her point is that she can counterjungle Amumu so hard because she can outduel him and take his camps.

Amumu clears faster and healthier than Shyvana currently. Good luck counterjungling him, it's not as easy as just walking in on him. His team should also have an advantage collapsing on you, that's why counterjungling with no escape is a terrible idea. I'm marginally more afraid of a Sejuani counterjungling me than a Shyvana because she actually has an escape.

If you want to talk about actual counterjungle champs currently it's 100% Lee Sin. He's a better duelest who clears at the same speed as Shyv with more HP and has an escape. He also manages to do more in the late game since he doesn't just get kited 24/7. If what you're valuing is early game invades Lee Sin is just a 100% better choice.

You can't stand there and tell me Amumu can outduel Shyvana.

Straight up, he can. In the early game Amumu shits on AA champs because you lose so much damage attacking into his E passive and reset his E repeatedly. Into the mid/late game one of Amumu's most popular items is Abyssal Sceptre, which pretty much allows him to completely handle everything that Shyvana can do. I'd bet on Amumu over Shyvana in most even 1v1s currently and there's no question that Amumu's more useful for literally everything else.

I'm also not just saying this out of hatred for Shyvana or something like that. I like Shyvana, I play Shyvana, I want her to be good. She's just not right now.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20162 votes

Shyvana's damage is from her E, W, Bloodrazor, Titanic Hydra, Wit's End, or whatever other on hit items she builds. Not her AD. His reduction doesn't touch her.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

Does Shyvana deal more than 10 Physical damage? If the answer is yes then Amumu's E passive is the same against her as someone who deals the same amount of pure physical damage as Shyvana's combined phys/magical damage.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

Um. Quick question.

When was the last time you played Shyv?

I just played her and tore through the jungle, and I'm not evem that good.

There is no feasible way Amumu can clear faster than shyv, especially because Shyv has a spammable W MS boost and doesn't run OOM in the jungle.

Also she can clear pretty healthy as well, you jusy have to play her right and build the right items.

Also Shyv buys wits end, which shreds MR and builds up her own MR, so yes, She can beat up Amumu.

I kinda get you not hating on Shyv just to hate on her, but i want to know when was the last time you have played her, becuase you seem to have forgotten her raw damage potential.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20164 votes

Ignore him, he has a 30% win rate and 10 games on Shyvana. No wonder he thinks she is garbage...

I have a 61% win rate with 70 games this season. And Raiku whom is my friend and has 500+ mastery points on Shyvana has a 61% win rate with 112 games on her this season. I'd much rather trust our info.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

You have a good point. Though I can bet this is probably a boards account of his...

But seeing as he got so many things wrong about Shyv in the few things he said about her, I think i can safely ignore him.

One of the first things I remembered when I read that Shyvana guide was that Amumu was easy pickings lol.

Oh yeah, I've seen that Raiku guy on the boards. He is quite knowledgeable on things Shyv.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

Raiku is a gold Shyvana player with over half a million mastery points on her. The only reason I don't recommend him when people need info on Shyvana is his builds are too rigid(he knows it). He loves damage on Shyvana, even when it isn't optimal. Which is fine, he makes it work.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

The fact that you think gold is impressive is kinda sad. Mid gold is probably the point where players stop sucking, maybe I'm wrong and it's even higher, who am I to say, I'm honestly not that great.

And I'm posting on my main, I just don't play Shyvana that much. A 30% winrate at 10 games is -3, that's a tiny amount of losses more than wins. 10 games is such a tiny and irrelevant sample size.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

So why do you think you can definitively say she's trash if you don't play her enough to learn her properly?

Raiku KawisaNov 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HNuW8Nzb,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-20T05:36:06.594+0000)

Raiku is a gold Shyvana player with over half a million mastery points on her. The only reason I don't recommend him when people need info on Shyvana is his builds are too rigid(he knows it). He loves damage on Shyvana, even when it isn't optimal. Which is fine, he makes it work.

You not wrong XD but it has not done well for me recently so I'm going to need to not go heavy on the dmg.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

There is no feasible way Amumu can clear faster than shyv, especially because Shyv has a spammable W MS boost and doesn't run OOM in the jungle.

Have you ever tried starting blue on Amumu? He can easiliy clear the jungle at breakneck speeds right now, his single monster camp is slower than Shyv but he kills Wolves and Krugs equally as quick and blows Raptors up faster than any other jungler.

I kinda get you not hating on Shyv just to hate on her, but i want to know when was the last time you have played her, becuase you seem to have forgotten her raw damage potential.

I've played her a couple of times this season, but I don't really like playing her right now. With Bloodrazor being literal guttertrash She kind of doesn't have a good item to build. I actually prefer Cinder on her right now, after the changes on the PBE I'm 100% confident that Cinder>GA will be the way to go.

Also she can clear pretty healthy as well, you jusy have to play her right and build the right items.

Her clear certainly isn't healthy. She's one of the few junglers who can't clear at full HP even if you go ultra conservative on Runes and Masteries and start with 3 pots. Shyvana just has no sustain, you take a ton of damage at chickens and red because those camps do a ton of damage.

Also Shyv buys wits end, which shreds MR and builds up her own MR, so yes, She can beat up Amumu.

Wit's is super situational even on champs who it's 'good' on. Buying Wit's let alone rushing it down is risky as hell. It's normally better just to buy a Maw or SV.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

Have you ever tried starting blue on Amumu? He can easiliy clear the jungle at breakneck speeds right now, his single monster camp is slower than Shyv but he kills Wolves and Krugs equally as quick and blows Raptors up faster than any other jungler.

No, in fact I should time clears in custom games to settle this.

I've played her a couple of times this season, but I don't really like playing her right now. With Bloodrazor being literal guttertrash She kind of doesn't have a good item to build. I actually prefer Cinder on her right now, after the changes on the PBE I'm 100% confident that Cinder>GA will be the way to go.

Wut? You played her a couple of times and decided she was trash?

That's like saying Azir is trash (pre-nerfs) after you played him 10 times and fed all 10 times.

Also if you think you can build GA right after Cinder and be K, then you don't know how to build Shyv,

Her clear certainly isn't healthy. She's one of the few junglers who can't clear at full HP even if you go ultra conservative on Runes and Masteries and start with 3 pots. Shyvana just has no sustain, you take a ton of damage at chickens and red because those camps do a ton of damage.

I went through this jungle with shyv and only backed to get items. It's not hard. You just start with item 1039 and some potions to get you started. You can easily do a full clear nice and healthy.

Wit's is super situational even on champs who it's 'good' on. Buying Wit's let alone rushing it down is risky as hell. It's normally better just to buy a Maw or SV.

Incorrect. Wit's end is a fantastic item on Shyv. It provides:

Attack speed, which Shyv loves.
MR, which Shyv loves.
Bonus Magic damage on-hit, which Shyv loves
Steals MR from attacked enemy on-hit, which makes Shyv overall hurt more and take less magic damage the longer the fight goes on.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20162 votes

It's sad that you aren't a Shyvana player and still know a lot more about her than he does. Claiming with his 10 games and 30% win rate to play Shyvana.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20162 votes

Learned from the best. ;D

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20162 votes

http://roadtomastery.azurewebsites.net/ go to tier 5 win rates x) Shyvana is #4 when being played to 'fullest potential' she has the 4th highest win rate in LoL.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20163 votes

Nvm you have a 30% win rate and 10 games on Shyvana. No wonder you think she is garbage...

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

I mostly play Shyvana top as a back-up, back-up champ. I only play her in rare cases where both Irelia and Akali get banned out. Sometimes I pick her jungle in the even rarer case that Sejuani is picked or banned away from me. Of course I don't have that high of a winrate on her, she's something like my 4th resort.

I have a 61% win rate with 70 games this season.

You have a 61% winrate in Silver. That's an important caveat. Shyvana is inherently better in lower tiers where people don't bother to help their junglers or peel properly. Get up to high gold/plat level where I've spent most of my games playing and players actually punish Shyvana. You don't just get free reign over what ever the fuck you want.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20163 votes

Her MMR is gold. Just like yours.

Also there are Diamond + players that play Shyvana and have over 55% winrates.

This is also important. It seems that the inherent disadvantages that Shyv faces in high elo can be worked around.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

Her MMR is gold. Just like yours.

Her MMR is Silver 3. She plays against some golds in Flex Queue because Flex has garbage match making. I played with a Diamond and a Bronze in the same game, do you want to draw a conclusion from that too?

Also there are Diamond + players that play Shyvana and have over 55% winrates.

There's Diamond + players with a 55% winrate on Aatrox. Some players are incredibly good at a champ, that doesn't make the champ good.

This is also important. It seems that the inherent disadvantages that Shyv faces in high elo can be worked around.

The fact is, if you learn Lee Sin, Hecarim, Elise or any other meta jungler to the same level you'd be up about two tiers just off the back of that.

I feel like you misinterpreted my original argument, it's not that Amumu or Hecarim will straight up beat Shyvana, rather that they are always better picks than Shyvana.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

http://roadtomastery.azurewebsites.net/ go to tier 5 win rates x) Shyvana is #4 when being played to fullest potential she has the 4th highest win rate in LoL.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

You have a lot of blind faith in a site that just throws a percentage at you. I don't know some very important factors here, how many games do these players have on average? What patch is this on? These are the big two for me.

You can reach rank 5 mastery without without winning a game, you can reach it in 10 games. Rank 5 mastery is a really bad qualifier of skill. Guess what? I have rank 6 mastery on Shyvana, I'm closer to qualifying for this set than you are, considering I'm almost in the rank range for it (although I'm not on the right server).

Didn't you say I was a bad Shyvana player before? According to what you're saying here I'm playing Shyvana "to her highest potential".

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

It's Tier 5 summoners... as in top tier players... Not mastery 5 champion.

And Champion GG backs up their statistics.

45% win rate at 1-5 games, 55% at 125+, it doesn't go higher than that, but it is the same trend. She does great in experienced hands. Because while mechanically easy her strategy, game knowledge and design are hard to master.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

And Champion GG backs up their statistics.

If you know where to look they tell you the number of games played, times each matchup was played, builds, runes masteries ect. It also tells me the patch, which is kind of super important.

It's Tier 5 summoners... as in top tier players... Not mastery 5 champion.

No, it's not. It's based off of tier 5 masteries, otherwise the Lee Sin percentage makes no sense, it already makes no sense for the current patch but suggesting that the top X% of Lee Sin players fail to achieve a 50% win rate is complete bull shit. Even last patch Lee broke a 50% winrate after about 15 games.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20161 votes

Her normals mmr is silver becuase she almost always plays ranked now.

Her ranked mmr is gold, in case you didn't check that.

It makes the champ good for them, and when their teammates and enemies see them play those champs they are freaking glad they have been nerfed. Shyvana isn't even a bad champion, she was just in a sort of limbo after her core items were removed or nerfed after she was.

I feel you don't know the power of a Shyvana main, and that's fine. Just don't act like you can definitely say if a champ is garbage. She is in a bad spot but she isn't garbage.

Really? Becuase if your team already has plenty of CC than picking Amumu would be a relative waste as opposed to Shyv who has massive damage and can take advantage of the cc.

Hecarim can just plain be counterganked.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

Her normals mmr is silver becuase she almost always plays ranked now.

Her ranked mmr is gold, in case you didn't check that.

Ranked MMR is S3, when you click 'show MMR' on OO.GG that shows your ranked MMR, go check what OP.GG says when you try to check MMR for a player with no ranked played and only normals. Even look at what it says

http://imgur.com/a/mXEZr

'The average MMR for silver 2 is... In what world is that talking about normals?

I feel you don't know the power of a Shyvana main, and that's fine. Just don't act like you can definitely say if a champ is garbage. She is in a bad spot but she isn't garbage.

I'm also not an Aatrox main and I know he's utter garbage. I certainly have greater idea about Shyvana than Aatrox. Here's the real question, if you have to spam Shyvana for her to become average then is she a balanced champion?

Really? Becuase if your team already has plenty of CC than picking Amumu would be a relative waste as opposed to Shyv who has massive damage and can take advantage of the cc.

There's no such thing as too much CC on a team, there is such a thing as too little damage but Amumu generally brings enough damage for this not to be a huge issue anyway.

Hecarim can just plain be counterganked.

Far less so than Shyvana can. Counter ganking Shyvana basically assures that you win because she doesn't really have the tools to fight 2v2 and every other jungler brings CC.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 20, 20161 votes

Well that explains it, you checked OP.GG while I checked lol-mmr.com.

On that site it shows her ranked MMR as Gold. See?

http://www.lol-mmr.com/profilev2.php?summoner=Mira%20Arya%20Enthe%20&region=na

I'm going off her ranked MMR because she hasn't played normals in a while so that MMR wouldn't be up to date.

He's garbage in the wrong hands yes, but he can still do his job.

Also you can find Shyvana players in Master Tier and Challenger Tier. You won't find Aatrox there so don't compare them.

Amumu doesn't bring damage. He brings CC.

This is why good Shyv players don't gank, they countergank so they can't be counterganked because to countergank you have to gank a jungler when they gank.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/season-7-shyvana-jungle-total-guide-the-most-in-depth-427599 if you want to learn about Shyvana, this is the guide to start with. It's the most in depth guide I've ever seen for a champion. BTW, clearly explains why she hard counters Amumu(Which everyone except for you already knew.)

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

Literally cannot find a champion counter website that doesn't overwhelmingly vote that Shyvana counters Amumu.

LankPantsNov 20, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

Maybe you should look up actual statistics rater than just opinion. Champ GG suggests it's a fairly neutral matchup.

Mira Arya EntheNov 20, 20161 votes

Shyvana's win rate is shit in general. Champion GG doesn't account for this. Amumu's is positive. Which is why Shyvana is getting changes to make ehr meta again. However asking 4 different Shyvana mains, guides written by plat+ players and the general playerbase. ALL say she counters Amumu. She has always been one of his strongest counters. Even Champion GG lists her as his counter and him as being countered by her on their respective pages. Though champion GGs stats alone don't say much.