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Tank Tear Item

Elite4Runner··19 votes·9,541 views

No name in mind yet. (Just thought of this idea today)

item 3070 + item 3105 + 550g = 2500 total.

I'm not certain about the final price being correct for balance purposes, but I want the item to be affordable for supports

The passive does not increase the resistance stats in the same way that the other tear items increase damage stats. Instead, AWE diverts a percentage of post-mitigated damage received to the user's mana pool. This percentage increases based on the user's bonus mana.

If the user has no mana resource, or runs out of mana, they receive full damage instead.

Edit:

I did have an alternative in mind, and it actually occured to me that I didn't take into account there being an evolved form of this once tear reached +750.

I wanted to avoid stacking resistances before adding what amounts to damage resistance on top of it because I felt that would be unfair.

Someone has already suggested making AWE stack health based on mana. The component items might be different in order to make this make sense, but it is possible.

Then when the item evolves, it gains an active that diverts a portion of damage received to mana. Since this would be a temporary active effect with a cooldown, the percentage could be much larger.

Edit 2: Archangle's Staff changes 'Mana Charge' so that it generates +8 mana instead of +4, upon mana expenditure.

Manamune changes 'Mana Charge' to +5 upon mana expenditure and basic attacks.

I would make this item change 'Mana Charge" generate +8 upon mana expenditure while in combat with enemy champions or from spells that heal/shield/buff allied units (other than yourself), but still only +4 otherwise.

53 Comments

saltran16 votes

Ezreal with 3 item 3070 items [sg-ezreal]

Killer of Night93 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal with 3 item 3070 items [sg-ezreal]

Hope the rework will gut this iteraction.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

What "interaction" lmao he's just the spammiest champion in the game. In many cases, he uses Q just as often as auto attacks

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Doubt it. They focused in the roadmap more about how his W is boring and how he needs graphics and VO to better stress out he is explorer thematically. Didn't see them mentoining Q in any way. So it remains game-breaker. Likely just new W ability, new effects and new VO.

DerMangoJoghurt6 votes

Taric I'll take three

Jobriq5 votes

Instead, AWE diverts a percentage of post-mitigated damage received to the user's mana pool. This sounds like unkillable Ryze waiting to happen. It would probably be better if it just gave health like Singed 's old passive. Although between item 3001 and item 3024 upgrades, most tanks don't really need more mana items. It would be interesting to run on Blitzcrank though since his passive scales with mana.

Champion Skin2 votes

{quoted}

Instead, AWE diverts a percentage of post-mitigated damage received to the user's mana pool. This sounds like unkillable Ryze waiting to happen. It would probably be better if it just gave health like Singed 's old passive. Although between item 3001 and item 3024 upgrades, most tanks don't really need more mana items. It would be interesting to run on Blitzcrank though since his passive scales with mana.

Ehh it wouldn't really help Ryze that much?

If it diverts 10% of post-mitigation damage then all it does is increase Max HP by 10% as long as you don't run out of mana (and Ryze usually don't have that much HP)... 10% is just an example I don't know what number would be balanced

And if did work like Singed old passive THEN it would make Ryze unkillable since then he would gain 25% of mana as Health (and Ryze have a lot of mana)

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

I was spit-balling an idea like this a couple weeks ago on some random thread, and had landed on mana getting converted to health.

I like the idea of mana being used to mitigate damage, but I think there's no way to make that balanced and feel good. If it's too strong, you just won't ever take full damage, and if it's too weak, you won't have any mana left for spells. That creates a bit of a balance issue imo.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Good point. I have made a few adjustments to the original post, and the overall concept. Making the damage redirection an active could help to allow the effect to be more powerful because the effect is gated by a duration and a cooldown.

I think I would honestly like to see it have a long up-time, maybe it could be extended by remaining in combat, or in combat with enemy champions.

Champion Skin1 votes

You could also use the solution item 3042 uses in that it only works when above 20% max mana so it will pretty much always leave you with enough mana to use your abilities for a while

Binding a lot of the power to an active effect is also possible though at that point since the passive effect likely wouldn't be strong enough to ever drain your mana enough to matter you might as well make the active effect scale with your max mana rather than having it drain your mana

Or you could also just have it as toggled ability allowing the player to choose if they value durability or mana more (sometimes durability can be more useful/important than using your abilities)

Champion Skin1 votes

Not necessarily so? The best way is to just make the effect cheap so you can have it at a low % and thus not drain all the mana while still being well worth it and you should also probably include some active effect like item 3040 which gives you a much bigger protection that uses your mana but is temporary

You could also solve it by making it a toggled effect (you can choose to burn all of your mana to gain durability or you can turn it off if using your abilities is more important and you are low on mana) or an effect that turns off when at low mana (like item 3042 mana to damage only works when above 20% max mana)

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, I could get behind those ideas, I suppose.

I would still rather have the stats, which I feel like is just better clarity for you and opponents and also has better counterplay. You can tell when an opponent has a huge health bar; little harder to account for damage reduction when you're trying to evaluate mid-combat.

SugeMinPikk2 votes

Wasn't that singed's old passive?

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Yeah, suppose it was.

I still like it as a finished item idea. Not sure it's as good as a champion passive. But now that Singed can't double down on it, might as well add it to an item, right?! :P

Hibeki3 votes

item 3110

Elite4Runner3 votes

Frozen Heart is more of a tank item that gives mana and and CDR. The Aura that reduces enemy attack speed is one of the major aspects of the item, making it good for countering ADC's

The way I am seeing the item that I am trying to provide damage resistance for utility focused champions. That isn't to say that tanks can't fall into that category, but in order to stack tear, the champion will need to utilize a lot of spells. Frozen Heart would be a good item to combo this item with.

This actually reminds me that I was thinking of adding a portion to Mana Charge for the base form of this item where it generates +8 mana when casting spells while in combat with an enemy champion.

Hibeki3 votes

Its the higheest armor item in the game on top of that. Tanks do not need the item you are proposing

Elite4Runner2 votes

As I said, it isn't meant to be a primarily tank item, but an off-tank, or support tank item.

This isn't an attempt to replace Frozen Heart. It's a very different item.

Hibeki1 votes

But theres no way to make this item decent as you are proposing without a tank buying this every time.

Elite4Runner1 votes

All tear items need other mana items in order to be more effective ... so ..?

Waffle Champion1 votes

Champions like Taric will build Frozen Heart/Zeke's Convergence and still take a tear ASAP in lane. It would be nice if the investment in the tear actually went to ANYTHING.

flibitydoo2 votes

You know that item 3010 would probably break this tank tear item right? You can't "divert dmg taken to mana" but also "damage taken becomes mana" at the same time.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eternity doesn't affect how much damage is taken. So the effects aren't mutually exclusive.

The recursive stacking could be solved by giving both passives the same name.

Elite4Runner2 votes

Why not?

So they work together. Most likely the actual balance would still result in the player losing health and mana, but their overall effectiveness would be greater, which is generally the point of sustain items.

Why shouldn't items synergize with other items?

crippler381 votes

Because anyone who buys Rod of Ages would buy this item as their defensive item probably. So they'd get a ton of EHP and have a lot of mana from two items while still getting a solid chunk of damage.

I don't know if they can get a ratio that'd be good, especially since worse mana costs is what I imagine is how characters with sustain are able to be forced out of lane.

EDIT: I do want to point out that I'm no balance expert, I'm just a bit wary that the synergy might make Rod of Ages users have too much tankiness for two items.

KFCeytron2 votes

The OP just describes the item without describing the need for it, and I don't think there is one. There are already enough tanky mana items. The whole reason Ryze has mana scaling is because he was considered a mid-range mage who needed to gain offensive stats while building defensive items, which often include mana.

Elite4Runner3 votes

I have actually found that getting too in depth with descriptions about why I think something should be done actually decreases the likelyhood of people reading the post. In fact, the edits I added to the post have put me over the point where I think posts should be, and since I did so I feel like the amount of comments and upvotes have decreased. I obviously can't prove that this is the specific reason why, but it seems to be a pattern based on my previous posts. The fact that it has already received upvotes has really helped in general though.

As for the "need" for the item. .. I feel like it would be pretty arrogant of me to try and claim that the game is so broken without this item. Do I think it could be useful to some and maybe not to others? Absolutely. Is it essential to anyone? No. .. But along the same lines, why does the game need to have Iceborn Gauntlet and Frozen Heart, .. they are similar enough to one another. They offer very similar stats. They are certainly utilized in different ways by different champions, and the unique passives that they offer make them different enough to fit into a place within the game. The same can be said for many other items in the game when compared. So I don't think it is really a fair question or expectation for me to have a convincing answer to.

I also hope that many people take posts like these as nothing more than ideas that are nearly impossible to have any sense of balance without extensive alpha and beta testing, which the average player simply can not do. The basic stats, recipe, gold cost and efficiency are easy enough to figure out, but all of the ways that those stats could impact the game is literally impossible for us to consider.

Personally, I am throwing this idea out there in hopes that someone might help me to identify things that I might not have thought of, and if the community agrees with the concept enough to get some upvotes, .. then maybe it will get the attention of someone at Riot. Honestly, I would never expect that something I have suggested, and I have suggested many things, would make it into the game in any way that is 100% unmistakably derived from my suggestion, .. but what it all really comes down to is that the activity of thinking of things that might improve the game is fun for me.

Side note: As far as things that I suggested that might have been taken and added into the game goes. .. The only thing that I do remember suggesting before it hit the PBE was the way Kled and Skaarl's health was displayed separately in the health bar. I obviously can't be sure that it was literally my post that fed the idea to Riot. It is entirely possible that they already had the idea or that it was someone else's post that they actually saw. If you would like to see the actual post, here it is. 24 upvotes and 69 votes in my favor in the poll currently. This post was made a few days after he first hit the PBE and the health was displayed this way the day before he hit live servers.

KFCeytron2 votes

{quoted}

I have actually found that getting too in depth with descriptions about why I think something should be done actually decreases the likelyhood of people reading the post. In fact, the edits I added to the post have put me over the point where I think posts should be, and since I did so I feel like the amount of comments and upvotes have decreased. I obviously can't prove that this is the specific reason why, but it seems to be a pattern based on my previous posts. The fact that it has already received upvotes has really helped in general though.

As for the "need" for the item. .. I feel like it would be pretty arrogant of me to try and claim that the game is so broken without this item. Do I think it could be useful to some and maybe not to others? Absolutely. Is it essential to anyone? No. .. But along the same lines, why does the game need to have Iceborn Gauntlet and Frozen Heart, .. they are similar enough to one another. They offer very similar stats. They are certainly utilized in different ways by different champions, and the unique passives that they offer make them different enough to fit into a place within the game. The same can be said for many other items in the game when compared. So I don't think it is really a fair question or expectation for me to have a convincing answer to.

I also hope that many people take posts like these as nothing more than ideas that are nearly impossible to have any sense of balance without extensive alpha and beta testing, which the average player simply can not do. The basic stats, recipe, gold cost and efficiency are easy enough to figure out, but all of the ways that those stats could impact the game is literally impossible for us to consider.

Personally, I am throwing this idea out there in hopes that someone might help me to identify things that I might not have thought of, and if the community agrees with the concept enough to get some upvotes, .. then maybe it will get the attention of someone at Riot. Honestly, I would never expect that something I have suggested, and I have suggested many things, would make it into the game in any way that is 100% unmistakably derived from my suggestion, .. but what it all really comes down to is that the activity of thinking of things that might improve the game is fun for me.

There's more to suggesting items than throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. If you don't think it's even fair to expect a justification for this item, why even post it publicly? I don't even know what else there is to discuss (on a discussion board, mind you) about a potential new item. Who would buy it, why they need it, why it makes the game more fun/balanced/balanceable, etc. Were you expecting suggestions of balance tweaks, like "I think it should be 2550g instead of 2500g"?

The first question to answer with a suggestion like this is "why?" and you not only don't have an answer, you're upset about it being asked.

Elite4Runner3 votes

"I don't even know what else there is to discuss"

That is interesting because other people are finding things to discuss, and the concept seems to be received fairly positively in general.

Can you honestly give a reason for why any specific item "needs to be in the game"?

It provides stats that have good synergy with many champion's kits and other item sets...

Why do you think I need to have all of the answers? Why can't a good idea come from "just be throwing shit at a wall"?

I even literally said in the very first line of my original post that I thought of this item today, .. and it was honestly only a few minutes before posting.

A large part of the reason that I posted the idea was just to get it in a form that others can comment on and something that I can come back to later ... So that I don't forget the idea myself.

Do you expect every post to come to you in APA format with spreadsheets and a flowchart??

Get over yourself.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

"I don't even know what else there is to discuss"

That is interesting because other people are finding things to discuss, and the concept seems to be received fairly positively in general.

Can you honestly give a reason for why any specific item "needs to be in the game"?

It provides stats that have good synergy with many champion's kits and other item sets...

Why do you think I need to have all of the answers? Why can't a good idea come from "just be throwing shit at a wall"?

I even literally said in the very first line of my original post that I thought of this item today, .. and it was honestly only a few minutes before posting.

A large part of the reason that I posted the idea was just to get it in a form that others can comment on and something that I can come back to later ... So that I don't forget the idea myself.

Do you expect every post to come to you in APA format with spreadsheets and a flowchart??

Get over yourself.

Some people are discussing balance tweaks, and you refuse to discuss anything else, particularly the elephant in the room of "ok sure but why?". It's not hard to make an item with a bunch of good stats. It is hard to justify adding an item into the game, and sometimes Riot even removes items that seemed justifiable but were actually bad for the game.

I didn't say you need to "have all the answers," so that's a strawman.

Giving a topic just a few minutes of thought before posting is a reason for being unprepared to discuss it, but it's not a justification. Maybe you could put just a little more effort into your posts?

You can write down notes to yourself in a variety of ways, including sending yourself an email, writing it down on a piece of paper, and more.

I didn't ask for spreadsheets and a flowchart, so that's a strawman as well.

By your own admission, your post is low-effort and poorly thought out, and you didn't actually want to talk about it or see any criticism of it. That is a low-quality post, which is all on you and no one else. Responding to basic, courteous criticism with nonsense like "questions aren't fair" and "get over yourself" is not a good way to improve the quality of your post.

Bisaknosp1 votes

would be abused by ezreal

Modl Ryden l1 votes

We could bring back the old Singed Passive where you can bonus health based on your bonus mana.

I'd also someday like to see a champ (mainly a tank) that uses Mana as a health resource. They could have a piss-poor base health stat but it's because their mana is soo high.

For those of you familiar with Maplestory, the Magic Shield skill diverts damage to MP from HP, in LoL's case your Mana takes the hits for you before your HP does and your skills still use Mana.

ForFoxSakes1 votes

What tank needs that kind of mana? They cant even spam enough to have it stack

Elite4Runner2 votes

Tank supports

Or rather, supports who need to be "more tanky"

Veraska1 votes

What if a percent of mana spent is refunded as a shield, like a morde passive but instead of dmg gating its mana gating (multiple little shields for spammable spells/toggles, bigger shields for larger cd spells)

Builds out of tear and aegis and offers no combat stats, i could see someone like amumu wanting that

Maybe ryze just breaks defensive mana scaling tho

Waffle Champion1 votes

And it could also replace Face of the Mountain's old Shield Battery effect so that supports don't have to feel sad about that anymore.

kile1471 votes

You mentioned price and balance, we can give this an estimate based on gold efficiencies. Your item is about 100% gold efficient once fully stacked (2550/2500), not counting Awe Passive. That's not terrible but considering the work/wait that you have to go through it's probably not good enough. Looking at a similar item Archangel's is about 112% efficient by similar metrics (3580/3200). I would recommend dropping the price on it by about 200 gold to make it about 110% gold efficient.

Regarding the passive, I feel like HP or actual resistances would be better since generally if you build Tear you want mana for your spells, not to protect you. Also, keep in mind that Riot has been specifically pushing for mana regen to be the stat that supports build, not raw mana. For this reason this item would probably be more used on tanks, who tend to have some Mana issues but don't necessarily want AP or AD.

Alternate with HP:

item 3070 + item 3105 + 350 = 2300 Gold

30 Armor 30 Magic Resist 250-1000 mana based on tear stacks

Unique Passive: Awe - Grants health equal to 15% of maximum mana. Refunds 15% of mana spent.

Unique Passive: Mana Charge -Grants +6 maximum mana on spell cast, mana expenditure, or auto attack. (Max 3 times per 12 seconds)

A similar one that I came up with awhile back that gave armor instead, and hoped to solve the problem of mages not having an armor option to rush that helped them sustain mana, and tanks not having as many Armor+AP options as Armor+AD:

item 3070 + item 3191 + 950 = 2900 Gold

60 AP 30 Armor 250 -1000 Mana Based on tear stacks

Unique Passive: Awe - Grants armor equal to 2% of maximum mana. Refunds 15% of mana spent.

Unique Passive: Mana Charge - Grants +6 maximum mana on spell cast, mana expenditure, or auto attack. (Max 3 times per 12 seconds)

Elite4Runner2 votes

I like your Seeker's option. I would point out that Seeker's has 30 armor at base, but stacked to full capacity would actually put it at 45 armor. With this in mind, a player who purchased Seeker's before Tear could theoretically lose armor when they upgraded. I expect that this might have been a typo or an oversight on your part but it would need to be accounted for.

kile1471 votes

Someone actually brought it up last time I posted the idea. The 15 extra armor would come from the awe passive. It's not really feasible for it not to give at least 15 armor, because even assuming you are using a champion with really low base mana (Kalista has the lowest at 232 at lvl 1) and farm directly to get the item as fast as possible (without buying tear first and generating extra mana stacks), you should be high enough level for your base mana+250 from base item mana to give you 750 mana total, which is the point at which the passive gives 15 armor.

So to answer your question, I thought about it, but I honestly am not sure it's actually even possible. I didn't think it was worth hindering clarity to name the exception though. If it was technically possible I would anticipate adding a basic, undocumented check condition to make sure that it gave at least 45 armor. Good catch though!

Edit: Thought I should mention, that the reason I did it this way instead of just adding the +15 onto the base of the item is because I would have to nerf the Awe Passive ratio to keep the same overall value on its own. This in turn would actually result in an overall nerf, because this item would be fantastic when stacked with other mana items (ROA+IBG yes please), and nerfing the Awe passive would hurt that interaction.

kile1471 votes

I actually just looked into champion mana pools even more.

Kalista is not actually the worst case scenario here. Despite having the lowest base mana in the game, her respectable growth of +35 per level does her some favors.

Twisted Fate has the lowest base mana in the game at level 18 (656), and has the lowest mana growth as well (+19/level). In this niche case of TF not having manaflow, building a Seeker's, then building it straight into my item I would say that it is actually possible to lose armor in the exchange, because his base mana combined with tear base mana would not equal 750 until he a reached level 9! Once again, this is a pretty remote possibility, but it would probably be worth adding a undocumented condition to cover it.

Fun fact though, if Galio or Fidd cheated the item in at level 1, they would still get the proper combined base armor value. With a base mana of 500 (highest int he game!), they would immediately upon building this have 750 mana and thus get the full 45 armor.

The Soulforged1 votes

MoM in league!

Elite4Runner1 votes

I'm actually not sure what you are referring to by "MoM"

Maw of Malmortius? What about it?

The Soulforged1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually not sure what you are referring to by "MoM"

Maw of Malmortius? What about it?

It's a term from Path of Exile. https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Mind_Over_Matter

Paroe1 votes

@thread

What if tank-oriented tear item had an HP threshold? Say... Its normal effect was 10% of mana gained as adaptive resistances, and it had a 4000HP threshold effect that also gave 25% of max mana as base HP?

LuvGunn1 votes

I really dislike the OP but I have thought of getting a tear as tanky supp before... How about a item 3070 that, once fully stacked, converts to a Mana-item 3083 of sorts. It provides very little on combat stats but offers CDR and mana... Could easily see this being bought on champs like Nautilus , Ryze , Anivia more so for utility than for DPS. Maybe something like only up to 50% mana or some other such mathematical nonsense but the essence would be that you have this eternal blue buff at the expense of your other items that COULD have provided damage, shields, health, armor etc.

If priced correctly I could see it being a great supp item for the CDR and mana-regen.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I really dislike the OP but I have thought of getting a tear as tanky supp before... How about a item 3070 that, once fully stacked, converts to a Mana-item 3083 of sorts. It provides very little on combat stats but offers CDR and mana... Could easily see this being bought on champs like Nautilus , Ryze , Anivia more so for utility than for DPS. Maybe something like only up to 50% mana or some other such mathematical nonsense but the essence would be that you have this eternal blue buff at the expense of your other items that COULD have provided damage, shields, health, armor etc.

If priced correctly I could see it being a great supp item for the CDR and mana-regen.

Mana battery; 1800g item 3070 +item 3114 + 250g

+100% mana regen. +250 mana. Unique passive: Haste Unique passive; Awe Unique passive - mana battery; taking damage grants 1 mana. At 750 mana transforms into mana manipulator.

Mana manipulator; +1000 mana +100% mana regen Unique passive: Haste Unique passive: Awe Unique passive: mana manipulaton; grants mana regen equal to 1% of your missing mana. Unique active: Manastorm; toggle; Consume 2% of your maximum mana per second to deal 1% of your maximum mana as magic damage in a 400 range area.

JAYCCCCCCCCCCCCE1 votes

Tanks dont really need a tear item. They mostly always have mana on them, its not like theyre poke champs trying to use their abilities whenever possible Nidalee Jayce Xerath Ezreal etc. Plus some of their items give them more than enough mana to last them a while: item 3001 item 3025 item 3110 item 3800

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

Tanks dont really need a tear item. They mostly always have mana on them, its not like theyre poke champs trying to use their abilities whenever possible Nidalee Jayce Xerath Ezreal etc. Plus some of their items give them more than enough mana to last them a while: item 3001 item 3025 item 3110 item 3800

And when that mana runs out, what then? Tanks generally have high mana costs and few reliable ways to get their mana back.

JAYCCCCCCCCCCCCE1 votes

When that mana runs out? Bud there are plants in the river that give mana, theres a scuttle in the river that gives mana, theres a blue you could take that refills mana. Otherwise just back and refill mana.

Tanks have high mana costs? Maybe early game yeah but everyone does, mid-late game tanks rarely have to worry too much on mana.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

When that mana runs out? Bud there are plants in the river that give mana, theres a scuttle in the river that gives mana, theres a blue you could take that refills mana. Otherwise just back and refill mana.

Tanks have high mana costs? Maybe early game yeah but everyone does, mid-late game tanks rarely have to worry too much on mana.

They still do because their mana regen is low. High costs + low base regen = you run out eventually, usually after one or two team fights. And those plants are usually better served on other members of your team.

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