Reducing Assassin damage to Tanks and Juggernauts would improve the over-the-top feel of game damage

Hexs Fortune·Dec 13, 2018·13 votes·6,860 views

Reduce assassin damage to tanks and juggernauts during the early game, the period before they can typically start stacking resistances

Reduce assassin damage to tanks and juggernauts during the late game, the period when assassins start purchasing percent pen on top of their flat pen and rendering resistances obsolete

These two conditions allow for stronger counters to assassins, which would play a role in reducing the current over-the-top feel of game damage.

This would also add a true distinction in the durability of tanks and juggernauts compared to their mobile bruiser brethren who often use the same items.

35 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerDec 13, 20188 votes

So how do you plan to nerf just the assassin damage to them then?

LTK KoRoDec 13, 20184 votes

By removing duskblade and halving electrocute damage-Boards, probably

22 Caliber RifleDec 13, 20182 votes

Duskblade is both a unique and main item for most assassins. If you wish for these changes you would most likely nerf duskblade slightly and in my opinion revert electrocute but with less damage

crazÿDec 13, 20181 votes

[deleted]

22 Caliber RifleDec 13, 20181 votes

I feel that's what I said but if you say so. A down vote was very unnecessary. Not gonna lie, assassins are not in a good spot atm especially in low elo queue and sometimes in higher elo and I do mean AP assassins. The akali changes are also very needed and are top priority for changes. Nerfing AP assassins which are considerably weak is a stupid idea but it won't affect akali's current power. She needed a must needed change since her rework and players do not like her anymore, its the same for Irelia.

She is too powerfull even though shes being nerfed plenty of times although it doesn't make up for milking the champion for money especially with Akali. Back on topic. Irelia is soo strong that people consider her a no skill champ which even I agree. She deals billions of damage and is hated for that.

crazÿDec 19, 20181 votes

so only weak ap assassin akali? and irelia she is not assassin

Janna Me FiddleDec 13, 20185 votes

Because Zed can practically miss half his skills and still kill you with a duskblade/electrocute/R pop.

Rengar can one shot again, which has no counter play if your summoner 4 is on cooldown or you don't have a item 2420 or item 3157 handy

Kayn is literally just hitting one ability and R to blow people up.

Shaco is one shotting as well from duskblade/dark harvest procs by just walking up while invis and backstabbing.

3 of the 4 you listed at least can be countered, Akali being the outlier because "muh true stealth"

crazÿDec 13, 20182 votes

but you can counter zed if you have a supp Janna Alistar and more all other champions there`s armor items for like what you said for mage and adc item 3157 item 3026 so assassin they failed to kill mage or adc sometimes after they missed ability and their team killed that assassin but assassin mages have so much mobility and they can become invisible and untargeted and most ap assassin they have AOE

Janna Me FiddleDec 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

but you can counter zed if you have a supp and more all other champions there`s armor items for like what you said for mage and adc so assassin they failed to kill mage or adc sometimes after they missed ability and their team killed that assassin but assassin mages have so much mobility and they can become invisible and untargeted and most ap assassin they have AOE

With the damage tuned as high as it is now, you can't.

Hell, shyvannas freaking E pokes are taking huge amounts of health off, that's how over the top the damage is right now.

crazÿDec 19, 20181 votes

im not talking about poke lol its about assassin how you can protect your adc he can get lifesteal and theres items MR for adc. you want for every single support in this game heal and shield and use cc and tanky in this game. so it`s about game play [sg-ahri-2]

TheSingularityDec 14, 20181 votes

It isn't unique, it's a stat check like most other items.

It requires nothing extra, you play as normal.

items with actual actives are unique

The EcdysiastDec 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So how do you plan to nerf just the assassin damage to them then?

Easy. Add a unique Chrysalis-like effect to armor/MR items. Something that reduces incoming ability damage from an attacker if it's done in a ~4 second burst.

Solves the issue without effecting duelers or marksmen.

Doge2020Dec 13, 20187 votes

Nerfing assassin damage or damage in general to tanks and juggernauts during the late game I agree with. But not the early game part.

the early and mid game times are when assassins are the best, they have to snowball to get a good mid game and a not that shitty late game. In the early game all of the tanks and juggernauts haven’t built a lot of resistances yet. The tank and juggernauts weakest states are usually the early game, at this point the tanks don’t have enough resistances and health to easily survive in all-in’s and juggernauts, on top of the low amount of resistances and health, don’t have their damage items to reliably fight. Assassins are supposed to take advantage of this time to snowball and get a lead on their lane opponents, no matter if the enemy laner is a tank, squishy, or juggernaut. The assassin is supposed to use their early game-mid game power and powerspike points to get try and get ahead to win the game. If the assassin can’t do this then he has failed and his/her team will most likely lose.

By nerfing the assassins early game damage (in general or just against tanks/juggernauts) you would unbalance the game and make assassins even more shit. Then assassins would be so bad that juggernauts would again see a ton of play in mid where they can dominate against assassins.

saltranDec 13, 20185 votes

You may think that I'm biased as a Zed/Talón main but I honestly think that assasins as a class dont need nerfs, they are on a pretty balanced state right now.

Yes, Akali is a mess (Thank you CT) but that's not a problem of all assasins.

Moody PDec 13, 20185 votes

Akali is the best designed assassin in the game

saltranDec 13, 20184 votes

This account it's just a smurf, in reallity I'm not an ADC main that plays immobile adcs but an evil assasin main that plays Zed buying Hexdrinker so I'm immune to the poor mages that go out of mana after casting 2 spells.

Please Riot: Remove lethality, also StormR and create a item that combines item 3285 and item 3157 so I can play like a manaless champ, have burst, waveclear, the safety of stasis and armor.

Oakleaf RangerDec 13, 20181 votes

Your thinking too small.

How about this item 3040 and this item 3157

LTK KoRoDec 13, 20182 votes

What about item 3157 and item 3089 , we could give it a fancy name like Zhonya's Ring or something like that

Slythrin UmbreonDec 14, 20181 votes

why not all 4?

CeazaruDec 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFIbLWEH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-13T16:23:12.721+0000)

Akali is the best designed assassin in the game

Akali has one of the most anti fun kits in the game. Don’t try To bring win rate. Her win rate is low for the same reasons Yasuos is low because players that don’t know how to play her use her.

SSW TalonDec 14, 20181 votes

The only anti fun part of Akali is her true stealth I'm just mad that Riot wanna keep it.

Dr DogDec 13, 20185 votes

how are you gonna nerf only assassin dmg to only these champions then? not that assassins are even that amazing rn in fact most of them arent good at all currently unless they're in the jg

Oakleaf RangerDec 13, 20184 votes

So you to remove the only part of the game when assassin's have a realistic chance of killing tanks?

Because assassin's aren't killing tanks in the late game on their own.

The Great DivideDec 14, 20184 votes

To be fair - assassins shouldn't be going for tanks in the first place....

And to be fair on the to be fair, any competent assassin wouldn't be in the first place, so I don't quite get the OP either. (I normally don't see assassins burst tanks ever - it's normally irelia, jax, yi, etc that blow through them, but their kits are more suited to do so)

Oakleaf RangerDec 14, 20181 votes

Unless tanks are overextended, assassins still have trouble one shoting tanks in the early game unless already snowballing.

And the main reason I even bother trying to kill or actively bother to try to kill one is in order get a hunter stack since pretty much every assassin goes in domination.

After the early game and getting that stack I don't bother anymore unless I'm making a pick with my team because my damage alone is usually not going to be enough.

ShaydroxDec 13, 20184 votes

As a Talon main I can tell you I typically don't even bother tossing spells onto a Sion as I feel like I'm not even tickling him. I feel damage in general is too high, but I don't think this particular part is the real issue tbh.

Stray KatDec 13, 20182 votes

Agreed. I'm a Diana 1-trick, and my least favorite thing to see is tanky picks on the enemy side. If I can't burst them, I can't win.

Hell, a squishy mage can survive an assassin with just RoA+defense boots as long as they don't play it badly and the assassin isn't already fed.

Though, I also don't agree that damage is too high generally. I think damage is unbalanced in some situations, but that can't really be solved in a constantly updated game. Can't just "get it balanced" and leave it that way, like you can for a console game that doesn't have bi-weekly updates and constant new content.

Moody PDec 13, 20183 votes

But then we just get tank meta

Defense and its counters need a big scale overhaul

Daddy AntsDec 13, 20183 votes

Assassin's are meant to be countered by Tanks but shit like Zed Talon Rengar can shred a tank no problem...

?XD

SSW TalonDec 14, 20181 votes

Talon can't shred a tank unless it's A: early game and the tank has no tank items or B: he is like 2+ items ahead of everyone else. Rengar can duel some tanks, sure Zed could when he still built BoTRK but now he also has to either be ultra ahead or the tank has to have no tank items for him to be capable of deleting them.

You might be able to argue these 3 with LDR and BC in an isolated 1v1 might be able to shred quite a number of tanks, but what AD champ with both of those items wouldn't?

LovelleDec 13, 20181 votes

The crazy early game damage is my main issue.

Trundle Nealy every single game I lose with him (and in general) is due to dying to crazy burst and getting snowballed/stomped on before I get the chance to complete 1-2 items. I can do well if I can make to mid game without getting snowballed on, but generally the game is decided in the first 10 minutes.

The nerfs to pillar don't help either, making it impossible to catch these mobile damage-stackers out and punish them, even if they're over-extended.

Now I hear they're nerfing tiamat, which is going to do nothing to the champioms that rush warrior and/or pure damage items. Trundle has no choice but to rush tiamat and sit on it, as his mana costs are high and he has no reliable way to clear waves on his own. It's not like itemization offers him any decent alternatives either.

Hawthorn TreeDec 13, 20181 votes

assassins have never really been strong after Riot took away Brutalizer and LW. Even when Lethality was batshit OP, the ones who really benefitted were fighters like Wu and J4. I don't see any reason why they would make the game feel overwhelming tbh...

Bob the ToastrDec 13, 20181 votes

Ha, then there's 142 champions that need to do less damage to tanks...

...because everyone's basically an assassin now lol

2Charmnot2CharmDec 13, 20181 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H36OexcVmVA

If i can do this vs champs that deal more damage than assassins and are better suited for long drawn out fights how the hell are you dying to assassins?

The game did not change that much from this point of time when it concerns tanks vs assassins so again, how are you losing 1v1 fights vs assassins?

Assassins do not have any consistent dps, it is all burst damage they deal which is easily countered by building items that have BOTH HP and damage type resistance. Hell they don't even have percent HP damage which is needed to deal with tanks, only one that does have that mechanic is Red form
The majority of the assassins have absolutely no sustain in their kits, they can not afford to stay in long drawn out fights because they have no way to recover back any hp the are missing in their kits (they need to build for it and building such items is a luxury).

You have to be playing tank supports, cause there is no way in hell you should be losing 1v1 fights to assassins period.

Done25Dec 13, 20181 votes

The easiest way to nerf assassin damage to tanks would be to revert the flat and % penetration changes from years ago. Make it so that flat applies before % instead of how it currently is. This will lower the power of Lord+Lethality against armor stackers.