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Removing crit would make this game SO much easier to balance

Emerald Fang··3 votes·1,509 views

Crit destroyed the entire AD meta, now the game is in serious fucking trouble because half the champ pool is useless and half are necessary picks.

Just remove crit, remove storm razor, give all items bonus AD, and change kits.

(It’s obviously not that simple sure) but if riot did this for s9 it might just work. Crit could be a feature of ONE item. For example, infinity edge could have a passive that « gives a 25% chance to crit for 150% damage . » Other items would give attack damage or attack speed. The zeal items, instead of CHC, would give either some bonus AD or passives that increased damage a bit. Overall AD damage would be toned down a bit and crit wouldn’t be abused.

And while you’re at it, you might as well reduce Duskblade and Ghostblade AD to 30 from 55 because the fact that they’re lower than every other AD item and still the biggest problems in the game really says something.

Ideas:

item 3072 +120 AD item 3031 +130 AD, Every 4th attack crits for 150% damage. item 3508 +100 AD/300 mana/10% CDR item 3812 +120 AD, heal % reduced to 10% item 3095 +100 AD, new passive "consecutive attacks against the same target stack a bonus [10 - 20] (+10% AD) physical damage per attack, capped at 6 stacks. Lasts 3 seconds (12 second cooldown upon stack removal). Not classified as an on-hit effect (old passive is duskblade 2.0 and probably should be scrapped). And non-crit stuff:

item 1042 +12% AS + 8 AD, price upped to 400g item 1051 +10 AD, passive "basic attacks bleed the enemy for 15 (+15% AD) over 3 seconds," price upped to 600g item 3086 +15% AS + 20 AD, price upped to 1400g item 3094 +30% AS + 60 AD, 2700g, (optional) new passive "At 100 charges your next two attacks will gain +100% AS and can exceed the attack speed cap. The second attack doesn't apply on-hit effects and deals 25% reduced damage. item 3087 +40% AS + 50 AD, 2700g item 3046 +50% AS + 40 AD, 2700g item 3085 +70% AS (revert possibly?), new passive "Increases AS cap by 0.5," 2700g

Non-crit: item 3147 +30 AD, +20 Lethality, revert this shit (attack puts a mark on a champion, after 4 seconds it deals 20% missing HP) item 3142 +30 AD, +20 Lethality, gain +30% MS for 4 seconds (more burst MS).

Champions: Yasuo Instead of double crit chance, gain a bonus +40% AD from all items, runes, and masteries, capped at (flow shield amount / 2). It sounds broken but it really wouldn't be, it's similar damage to double crit chance. Q damage reduced to 40 (+85% AD).

Tryndamere Rage gives him up to 35% bonus AD depending on how full it is. 1 to 1 damage as before (since 35% crit is essentially +35% damage).

Ashe Basic attacks slow by 15% for 1 second and apply "Chilled" for 3 seconds. If the target has "Chilled" they are slowed by 25 (+4 per 100 bonus AD)% for 1.5 seconds (decaying) instead. W applies Chilled.

28 Comments

Jamaree4 votes

I don't think having to adjust literally every crit based ADC would make the game easier to balance.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

There is a difference between being tediously hard and being actually hard in general, removing crit and balancing adcs to perform without that extra stat would be tedious but not as hard as it is to actually balance them now.

Jamaree1 votes

I don't think that is true.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

Jax with item 3047 when dodge was an rng mechanic is a good example of hard to balance.

Just make adcs scale more linearly and rely less on rng, the main reason why this wont happen is because they are more reliant on auto attacking than using spells and auto attack fights are usually won by whoever is fed....the rng and slow scaling is the dampener on snowballing when in reality, riot should be alittle bit more generous with their actual abilities, they don't have to be ad casters but they shouldn't be stat sticks either.

The op isn't wrong, the game would be easier to balance, but it would be very different and it would require a lot of changes to go into that direction.

Jamaree2 votes

They would have to scale them really high then since most ADC abilities lack real amounts of power that the abilities of other champions have.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEpz2ZU3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T06:50:45.797+0000)

There is a difference between being tediously hard and being actually hard in general, removing crit and balancing adcs to perform without that extra stat would be tedious but not as hard as it is to actually balance them now.

I can say the same thing for AP or resistances, or pretty much any stat and you will see pretty fast how that logic falls flat on it's face

Tahminatrix 1 votes

The fact that you compared crit to ap and resistance is pretty silly....

Youre comparing a 3 way multiplier (atk speed ad crit) with a 2 way (resistance and hp)and a 1 way (ap with the situational 40% buff from death cap)

Its easy to for riot to balance ap, alittle harder to balance resistance and hp (either tanks are useless or they are op, look at the tank metas and 0 tank metas)

And this 3 way stat group is the hardest of them all...

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEpz2ZU3,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-18T07:03:48.275+0000)

The fact that you compared crit to ap and resistance is pretty silly....

Youre comparing a 3 way multiplier (atk speed ad crit) with a 2 way (resistance and hp)and a 1 way (ap with the situational 40% buff from death cap)

same logic applies. I can remove AP and just rebalance everything to be AD... no more AD/AP disparities. I can do the same with resistances and just flat out remove one of them and just rebalance everything. It would do the exact same thing as removing crit and rebalancing everything that has to do with crit with something else

Tahminatrix 1 votes

Good, glad you are finally agreeing with me and you never opposed my statement about it being harder with a 3 way multiplier....

Idk why youre on about making the game too simple, all im saying is riot might have bit off alittle more than they can chew with crit, idk why you want to make all the stats ad, that sounds so dumb, riot is doing a good enough job at balancing 1 and sometimes 2 way stats...

Alittle sad that you are apparently downvoting me despite unknowingly supporting / staying neutral to me, maybe you should get some rest. [slayer-jinx-catface]

/end sarcasm...now you know how I feel

Seriously if you are going to argue against me then atleast know what you are arguing against...I never said you cant do that with any stat I only said that 3 way multiplier is harder to balance than anything else you mentioned....

Literally nothing you said countered my argument of a 3 way multiplier being more difficult to balance than a 2 way,

Youre literally blowing this out of proportion talking about ap and resistances which arnt even hard to balance and there is no reason to make drastic changes to such stats.

Im talking about difficulty , this entire thread is about difficulty, and youre out in your own world saying any stat can be changed which is true but its completely irrelevant to the thread.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEpz2ZU3,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T07:12:46.553+0000)

Good, glad you are finally agreeing with me and you never opposed my statement about it being harder with a 3 way multiplier....

Idk why youre on about making the game too simple, all im saying is riot might have bit off alittle more than they can chew with crit, idk why you want to make all the stats ad, that sounds so dumb, riot is doing a good enough job at balancing 1 and sometimes 2 way stats...

Alittle sad that you are apparently downvoting me despite unknowingly supporting / staying neutral to me, maybe you should get some rest. [slayer-jinx-catface]

/end sarcasm...now you know how I feel

Seriously if you are going to argue against me then atleast know what you are arguing against...I never said you cant do that with any stat I only said that 3 way multiplier is harder to balance than anything else you mentioned....

Literally nothing you said countered my argument of a 3 way multiplier being more difficult to balance than a 2 way,

Youre literally blowing this out of proportion talking about ap and resistances which arnt even hard to balance and there is no reason to make drastic changes to such stats.

Im talking about difficulty , this entire thread is about difficulty, and youre out in your own world saying any stat can be changed which is true but its completely irrelevant to the thread.

sorry but I think you are the one who bit more than he can chew with the entire game

Emerald Fang1 votes

Might be hard at first but after it's initially done, it's a lot easier to tweak one stat (AD) instead of crit and AD together.

Solicitude2 votes

I cant begin to imagine the massive number of adc mains that would come to the boards to cry if this would happen.

Paroe1 votes

@thread Crit as a basic stat should be removed, but crit in kits can stay. item 1051 ---> Removed item 3086 ---> 15% attack speed + 10AD

item 3087 ---> 40% attack speed +25AD item 3094 ---> 35% attack speed +25AD item 3046 --> 50% attack speed +25AD item 3085 --> 55% attack speed +25AD

item 3095 buffed up to 200% crit damage, crit scaling removed, price increased to 3200g. item 3031 can also stay, as the only additional crit item to support champions in the future who would get free flat crit.

Yasuo ---> Double crit passive reworked into flat crit based on flow (1% critical strike chance per 2% flow). critical strike chance will stay after the shield is popped until the shield is gone. Ashe ---> Ranger focus adds 2/4/6/8/10% critical strike chance per stack

Anyone else need mentioning?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

@thread Crit as a basic stat should be removed, but crit in kits can stay. item 1051 ---> Removed item 3086 ---> 15% attack speed + 10AD

item 3087 ---> 40% attack speed +25AD item 3094 ---> 35% attack speed +25AD item 3046 --> 50% attack speed +25AD item 3085 --> 55% attack speed +25AD

item 3095 buffed up to 200% crit damage, crit scaling removed, price increased to 3200g. item 3031 can also stay, as the only additional crit item to support champions in the future who would get free flat crit.

Yasuo ---> Double crit passive reworked into flat crit based on flow (1% critical strike chance per 2% flow). critical strike chance will stay after the shield is popped until the shield is gone. Ashe ---> Ranger focus adds 2/4/6/8/10% critical strike chance per stack

Anyone else need mentioning?

good job on destroying every single crit based champion

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

good job on destroying every single crit based champion

Like what? Marksmen?

I can pull up some math that shows you they dont need it, give me a few days and ill have recent screenshots too. Changes proposed buff marksmen DPS, increase their overall AD, and in the case of Yasuo and ashe, give them additional stats needed to function without a full blown rework. I especially like the ashe change; it makes her Q a choice rather than a button press.

Emerald Fang1 votes

These buffs aren't enough...

Also you'd be buffing full AD items like: item 3072 +120 AD item 3031 +130 AD, Every 4th attack crits for 150% damage. item 3508 +100 AD/300 mana/10% CDR item 3812 +120 AD, heal % reduced to 10%

item 1042 12% AS + 8 AD, price upped to 400g item 1051 +10 AD, passive "basic attacks bleed the enemy for (+30% AD) over 3 seconds," price upped to 600g item 3086 15% AS + 20 AD, price upped to 1400g item 3094 30% AS + 60 AD, 2700g item 3087 40% AS + 50 AD, 2700g item 3046 50% AS + 40 AD, 2700g item 3085 70% AS (revert possibly?), new passive "Increases AS cap by 0.5," 2700g item 3095 idk how to balance this shit lol And non-crit stuff: item 3147 +30 AD, +18 Lethality, revert this shit (attack puts a mark on a champion, after 4 seconds it deals 20% missing HP) item 3142 +45 AD, gain +30% MS for 4 seconds (more burst MS)

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

These buffs aren't enough...

Also you'd be buffing full AD items like: item 3072 +120 AD item 3031 +130 AD, Every 4th attack crits for 150% damage. item 3508 +100 AD/300 mana/10% CDR item 3812 +120 AD, heal % reduced to 10%

item 1042 12% AS + 8 AD, price upped to 400g item 1051 +10 AD, passive "basic attacks bleed the enemy for (+30% AD) over 3 seconds," price upped to 600g item 3086 15% AS + 20 AD, price upped to 1400g item 3094 30% AS + 60 AD, 2700g item 3087 40% AS + 50 AD, 2700g item 3046 50% AS + 40 AD, 2700g item 3085 70% AS (revert possibly?), new passive "Increases AS cap by 0.5," 2700g item 3095 idk how to balance this shit lol And non-crit stuff: item 3147 +30 AD, +18 Lethality, revert this shit (attack puts a mark on a champion, after 4 seconds it deals 20% missing HP) item 3142 +45 AD, gain +30% MS for 4 seconds (more burst MS)

so... you want to end up breaking every single non AD crit champion just so that crit based champions aren't useless? seems to me like this would just cause even bigger balance issues

Tahminatrix 2 votes

that small amount of ad will never make up for all the damage that was lost....lol

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEpz2ZU3,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-08-18T07:34:30.465+0000)

that small amount of ad will never make up for all the damage that was lost....lol

I dont think... you understand the point of removing crit. Its meant to be a nerf that redefines the class into DPS, not burst per second 1v9 omgwtfbbqsaucetreefrog.

Traditionally, a marksmans role is to take objectives and siege; This is true for most MOBA's based on DotA or warcraft. In league of legends, they compete with burst mages as gattling cannons. That... Simply isnt okay.

When crit was introduced it was needed - marksmen mains had a valid point that they didnt feel useful. AD at the time was much lower, as was Attack speed. Crit was introduced as a way to fix that problem without just adding more AD. Crit was so strong, they added dodge as a sable counter. Crit was the lesser of two evils. Nowadays, a full build marksman is over 350AD with 1.8ASP. Back then you got 250 with 1.5ASP; You dont need a highschool education to know that the stats we have today mean marksmen do a WHOLE lot more damage, making crit an unneeded stat.

By removing crit, adding a small amount of AD, and buffing attack speed we create a situation where marksman get ~400AD, ~2.0ASP, and if they opt for storm razor they still get that burst damage they need to turn fights in their favor. Yes its a nerf, but its a badly needed one for game health that would riot to tone down AD casters like assassins across the board. It would also let tanks feel like they do a job, instead of getting bursted in 3 seconds by 700 pre-mitigation damage point and click nukes every 0.2-0.5 seconds.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

I dont think... you understand the point of removing crit. Its meant to be a nerf that redefines the class into DPS, not burst per second 1v9 omgwtfbbqsaucetreefrog.

Traditionally, a marksmans role is to take objectives and siege; This is true for most MOBA's based on DotA or warcraft. In league of legends, they compete with burst mages as gattling cannons. That... Simply isnt okay.

When crit was introduced it was needed - marksmen mains had a valid point that they didnt feel useful. AD at the time was much lower, as was Attack speed. Crit was introduced as a way to fix that problem without just adding more AD. Crit was so strong, they added dodge as a sable counter. Crit was the lesser of two evils. Nowadays, a full build marksman is over 350AD with 1.8ASP. Back then you got 250 with 1.5ASP; You dont need a highschool education to know that the stats we have today mean marksmen do a WHOLE lot more damage, making crit an unneeded stat.

By removing crit, adding a small amount of AD, and buffing attack speed we create a situation where marksman get ~400AD, ~2.0ASP, and if they opt for storm razor they still get that burst damage they need to turn fights in their favor. Yes its a nerf, but its a badly needed one for game health that would riot to tone down AD casters like assassins across the board. It would also let tanks feel like they do a job, instead of getting bursted in 3 seconds by 700 pre-mitigation damage point and click nukes every 0.2-0.5 seconds.

and your definition of "dps" is "barely do anything unless you spend 20 seconds attacking someone repeatedly"? because tell me why would I pick any of those champions now when they barely do anything at all? might as well pick Azir or Ryze or anything that is actually a DPS champion and not a "I do no damage at any point in the game because my main stat is now gone and somehow 50 more AD is going to compensate what is essentially almost triple that amount in terms of damage"

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

and your definition of "dps" is "barely do anything unless you spend 20 seconds attacking someone repeatedly"? because tell me why would I pick any of those champions now when they barely do anything at all? might as well pick Azir or Ryze or anything that is actually a DPS champion and not a "I do no damage at any point in the game because my main stat is now gone and somehow 50 more AD is going to compensate what is essentially almost triple that amount in terms of damage"

You dont really think much of DPS, do you? Or understand the role of the marksman class. That lack of understanding is shared by riot i think, and its led to marksman being broken for a very long time. The recent nerf was a whiplash for many too... Because they were relatively balanced for the first time in over five years.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

You dont really think much of DPS, do you? Or understand the role of the marksman class. That lack of understanding is shared by riot i think, and its led to marksman being broken for a very long time. The recent nerf was a whiplash for many too... Because they were relatively balanced for the first time in over five years.

"I don't want the squishy damage class to deal any sort of meaningful damage"

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

"I don't want the squishy damage class to deal any sort of meaningful damage"

Because 350 damage with 1.8asp isnt meaningful.

Lets just... bump that up to 2.0 for maths sake, yeah? Its late. in 5 seconds without counting for additional effects...

  1. 700
  2. 1400
  3. 2100
  4. 2800
  5. 3500 Double that for crit.
    Now think of this; In 5 seconds most mages get about a rotation, maybe a rotation and one.

Using lux as an example... Passive: 190+0.2AP Passive: 190.0.2AP Q: 250+0.7AP E: 240+0.6AP R: 500+0.75AP Total: 1370+2.45AP 3500-1370 = 2130 2130/2.45 = ~870AP needed to match the burst of the afore mentioned DPS.

Marksman dont need crit anymore, its safe to remove the stat from items and use it in the future as a champion or item mechanic. Buffing marksman AD and ASP will let marksmen continue to do their huge damage and still feel good about it while giving them more opportunity to be outplayed WHILE increasing the general effectiveness of the item pools. Cant tell you how much id love more attack speed on some champs who dont build crit or on-hit. I miss Zephyr for that reason...

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Because 350 damage with 1.8asp isnt meaningful.

Lets just... bump that up to 2.0 for maths sake, yeah? Its late. in 5 seconds without counting for additional effects...

  1. 700
  2. 1400
  3. 2100
  4. 2800
  5. 3500 Double that for crit.
    Now think of this; In 5 seconds most mages get about a rotation, maybe a rotation and one.

Using lux as an example... Passive: 190+0.2AP Passive: 190.0.2AP Q: 250+0.7AP E: 240+0.6AP R: 500+0.75AP Total: 1370+2.45AP 3500-1370 = 2130 2130/2.45 = ~870AP needed to match the burst of the afore mentioned DPS.

Marksman dont need crit anymore, its safe to remove the stat from items and use it in the future as a champion or item mechanic. Buffing marksman AD and ASP will let marksmen continue to do their huge damage and still feel good about it while giving them more opportunity to be outplayed WHILE increasing the general effectiveness of the item pools. Cant tell you how much id love more attack speed on some champs who dont build crit or on-hit. I miss Zephyr for that reason...

"I don't want crit based champions to deal any sort of meaningful damage"

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

"I don't want crit based champions to deal any sort of meaningful damage"

... Did you miss the part where i used math to prove that marksmen do meaningful damage no matter what?

Is your concept of "meaningful" 2000 damage in 1.5 seconds?

Emerald Fang1 votes

Yeah, the numbers need buffs. I put some in my OP. Marksmen should be DPS but that's not enough.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the numbers need buffs. I put some in my OP. Marksmen should be DPS but that's not enough.

Wait wait wait... THose buffs in your opening post now... Why the frag would you have such high numbers? Thats at least item 1038 +item 1038 for just 80AD. Current big ticket AD items do NOT needs buffs. Removing crit and giving previous crit items a small amount of AD would be more than enough compensation.

With such high AD there wouldnt even be a point in getting rid of crit, and the astronomical gold costs of those items would make it so AD champions who use them dont come online until WAY late in the game. I mean... Youd essentially need an interim item made of two BF swords thats 2900g for 90AD and nothing else, JUST to make those numbers feasible. You might as well just suggest a DotA style upgradable item like Dagons wand or Necromancer tome that gives huge stats at its max stage.

ummyum1 votes

An adc in today's day struggle to survive with the current meta in today's tank, assassin meta. Removing crit means removing an adcs lifeline. It is also up to you as to whether if you choose the time to invest in that effort rather then forcing change on everyone. Sorry to say but I won't be playing adcs anymore if that ever happens riot, too much changing. I understand that yasuo and assassins are currently way too overpowered, but that does not mean it should be piled on other ads. People just don't want to admit that assassins need a nerf. Why would even you want to go for an ap mage when you have a cool dude shooting around almost 1 hitting everyone with an auto late game? Ap mages are useless now compared to an assassin. People always love to complain for change but never tell others why and what heroes they play. Be fair, Riot.

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