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The creep nobody talks about: Defensive Creep.

ModCaptainMårvelous··16 votes·3,644 views

When people talk about creep, it's always the same topics: Damage creep. Complexity creep. Mobility creep. etc etc etc. Same topics, tired and true. What nobody talks about, however, is defensive creep.

"BUT TANKS ARE IN THE WORST SPOT THEY'VE-"

Cut it out. Tanks are not nearly as bad as boards makes them out to be. Especially not in pro play, where coordination is highest. That said, "defensive creep" isn't just self preservation but also ally preservation.

#Defensive Creep on solo-characters.

Straight-up: Defensive items are better now than they've ever been. "BUT TAN-" No. Not tanks. Everyone. Mages have access to better protective items than they've ever had without having to dip too far outside of their pool. Things like Protobelt, Abyssal Mask and Seraphs are all better at keeping mages alive, not to mention Aftershock letting them tank absurd amounts of damage while going ham. Tanks can dip heavily into early game itemization that benefits in the long run rather than just falling off and tanks in general have more HP now more than ever. Fighters still get great items like Steraks (more on that) or self-sustain (More on that too.)

Most characters also have access to some sort of buyable shield regardless of position, from PD to Steraks to Maw. If shields aren't your thing, you also have access to a bevy of sustain choices like Death's Dance, Ravenous Hunter, Overheal and all sorts of potions and trinkets ill-gotten from Klepto. With mana regen being higher (which is better for tanks and low-mana classes more than mages), you're more liable to spam spells and benefit from healing abilities.

And of course we have characters and champions. Champions with massive amounts of defensive abilities on low CDs like Irelia and Fiora. Sion, who single-handedly raised the bar for what it means to be a tank. Champions like Xin Zhao getting reworked to block more damage than they ever could. More spammable heals, shields and defensive cooldowns. It's telling when Vi, one of the most offensive-minded divers in the game, had her defenses buffed over her offenses.

But they're not the main offenders.

#Defensive Creep on Supportive Characters

Back in the day, the most protective character you could get is Janna. A champion who literally invalidated melee characters. Alternatively, Shen: An ultimate with a massive cooldown that will summon your very own personal Shenpai ninja body guard along with a big, fat, disgusting shield.

These days, those characters are often long forgotten by the two biggest criminals in the tanking world: Braum and Tahm Kench.

Braum is literally the ideal tank, creating a massive barrier between your squishies and your enemies. He can eat skillshots and projectiles with his W on a moving body that can stick to a target, far better than the oft complained about Yasuo, while providing self-damage reduction when you do hit that shield. Braum's concussive blows also make it hell for anyone who does get close. He has peel just a bit shorter than Janna's while having the benefit of being massively tanky. It's extremely telling that the only champion who could top Braum in terms of pure defensive utility is...

Tahm. Fuckin'. Kench. The king of invalidating plays. The utter bane of existence. A champion who can utterly negate a pick, CC or otherwise. A champion whose existence is a get out of free card against pick comps. This champion was the only thing that could top Braum's 24/7 bodyguard play by being the ultimate in "protect this idiot" technology. He's a champion like Soraka: A pick that makes others hate the game because they didn't play around the eight second cooldown. Windwall you can bait out and force on a 20-something CD. You can't exactly play around Tahm eating your enemy unless you have a DOT.

This, of course, doesn't account for the mass of supportive itemization buffs. Knights Vow. Athene's Grail. Redemption. Iron Solari. Mikael's. Don't think I haven't forgotten about items that lower active item CD that make these items even more common. Not to mention the support item changes which give supports more sustain in lane and more ways to remain in lane to further buff their adc. The fact is that it has never been easier to keep a subpar player alive if you know what you're doing because of just how many ways there are to keep them out of the fire.

Shoutout to Runes too. I see you over there.

#Why it matters

One of the things I've come to find about being a QA tester is that the root cause is what you want to find more than anything. Everyone likes to complain about damage but nobody complains about durability or ally protection. Besides the obvious answer of "Because boards greatly favors tanks and supportive characters" (Hell, Braum was the #1 most popular champion in a survey done on Reddit between EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE CHAMPION back in 2016 or so), the reasoning is that defensive creep is much more subtle than any sort of other creep.

Everyone will call out when a champion has 2-3 dashes. Nobody says anything when honeyfruit can keep a champ going with lane priority. Everyone will call out when a champ has %HP True damage on a random timer. Nobody says anything about them being able to parry all damage for a second at a consistent, fixed rate. Everyone will call out when damage is too high. Nobody says anything when this damage was a direct response to prior metas.

It's telling that the Season just before "THE DAMAGE CREEP" hit full swing we had an incredibly play-it-safe meta of protective supports healing and buffing the shit out of ADCs, leading to deathball comps. Even now, in the "biggest damage creep wave ever", you're more liable to see a champion like Urgot (Tanky DPS), Aatrox (Big healing slobberknocker of a champ) or Sion (What you find when you google "Meatwall") than a pure high damage champion like Zed or Yasuo.

But most of all: Ignoring it won't fix anything. If you nerf damage and defense stays the same, you end up with the same situation: Giant long-ass games with zero skill involved of champions trading simplistic trade patterns with no real repercussion. Then you lead to Riot having to buff damage to deal with this insane durability. Then the cycle repeats over and over. If you really want to see change, cut down on protective items and nerf supports who can babysit champions. Give real drawbacks to an ADC being out of position rather than having a Rakan charm, dump redemption on them and then chain-CC while a quarter of the damage you deal goes to him.

Defense needs to be looked at because otherwise we'll just dip back in Season 7, then back to Season 8, and over and over til the heat death of the universe.

34 Comments

Done2514 votes

The difference is that defensive creep slows down fights and allows for tactics other than suicidal 5v5 death ball crash dives in mid lane.

Offensive creep means Ezreal WEQ gunblades over a wall at you to proc Muramana four times in 0.25 seconds and you die instantly.

Same for Rengar's leap out of stealth, or Zed/Talon/Fizz ruining your day with instant burst.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that defensive creep slows down fights and allows for tactics over than suicidal 5v5 death ball crash dives in mid lane.

Offensive creep means Ezreal WEQ gunblades over a wall at you to proc Muramana four times in 0.25 seconds and you die instantly.

Same for Rengar's leap out of stealth, or Zed/Talon/Fizz ruining your day with instant burst.

This is false.

Defensive creep slows down fights, yes, but the end result is that tactics go out the window. There is no punishment, no "strategy", and no actual thought put into these fights. Tank metas are slow, brainless matches of attrition where the winner ends up being who can outstat who. This myth that "Tank meta fights are big brain!" needs to be dispelled because they are poison to strategy, not a buffer to it.

Comparatively, while you can argue it, damage metas actually require MORE strategic play. Because the punishment threshold is so high, it means there is less room to make mistakes. Every move, cooldown and tool must be used sparringly. It's also why damage metas upset lower-tier players the most while conversely they love tank metas the most: Punishment is highest in a damage meta, meaning their blatant and frequent mistakes are punished. Punishment is lowest in tank metas, where a player can dive 1v5 and get out with 1/2 HP get little-to-no punishment for bad plays that are frequently made.

Both can be a problem but we need to get rid of this myth that tank metas are high strategy. They're just problematic for different reasons: One can be too punishing while the other is not punishing enough.

Paroe10 votes

{quoted}

This is false.

Defensive creep slows down fights, yes, but the end result is that tactics go out the window. There is no punishment, no "strategy", and no actual thought put into these fights. Tank metas are slow, brainless matches of attrition where the winner ends up being who can outstat who. This myth that "Tank meta fights are big brain!" needs to be dispelled because they are poison to strategy, not a buffer to it.

I hope you realize that this isnt true and hasnt been true for years. Tanks get %HP damage for a reason nowadays - your chicken little argument is... Galling, to say the least.

Comparatively, while you can argue it, damage metas actually require MORE strategic play. Because the punishment threshold is so high, it means there is less room to make mistakes.

No. Have you not been watching professional play?! Damage metas are STAGNANT metas because if you make one misplay you tend to lose the game. There is a REASON ultra safe laners are the norm in pro play lately.
Why do you think Ezreal, Vayne, and Lucian are popular? Its because they are incredibly safe champions who CAN misplay and still come out alive.

Both can be a problem but we need to get rid of this myth that tank metas are high strategy. They're just problematic for different reasons: One can be too punishing while the other is not punishing enough.

You need to drop your bias against defense first and realize that slower metas have more room for error, more room for thought, and in the current runes and itemization enviornment will never devolve into your chicken little doomsday wet noodle fight.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

I hope you realize that this isnt true and hasnt been true for years. Tanks get %HP damage for a reason nowadays - your chicken little argument is... Galling, to say the least.

Tanks get %HP damage so they can itemize purely defensive and still deal damage...or well, that used to be the case. Now you have tanks with both good damage and %HP damage. Unless we're going to say Sion deals zero damage.

No. Have you not been watching professional play?! Damage metas are STAGNANT metas because if you make one misplay you tend to lose the game. There is a REASON ultra safe laners are the norm in pro play lately.
Why do you think Ezreal, Vayne, and Lucian are popular? Its because they are incredibly safe champions who CAN misplay and still come out alive.

Gonna need you to slow your roll there. 2018 had the highest diversity of champions picked in pro play. This was, of course, back in the meta where damage was even higher. Of course the obvious argument is "But SINGLE PLAY DOESN'T COUNT", which also makes prior seasons less diverse.

Apparently you haven't been keeping up with pro play because your argument is factually incorrect.

You need to drop your bias against defense first and realize that slower metas have more room for error, more room for thought, and in the current runes and itemization enviornment will never devolve into your chicken little doomsday wet noodle fight.

Again, wrong. Slower metas are the crux of Season 4-6 slow, stall-out metas. Games lasting 50+ minutes with tiny amounts of kills on both sides, no team able to make a pick because of how easy it is to get out. Baron dances lasting almost half an hour as teams clear vision, put vision down, then clear it again.

Meanwhile, in this meta, we have both slow and fast paced games. We have games where there are legitimate choke-out strategies and well-defined play. 2018 was a year where every region brought their own style of play and actually had variable strategy rather than a singular, correct strategy. This meta, factually, is more diverse, more strategic and offers more creative play.

All that said, I am in agreement that the current runes/itemization will prevent chicken noodle fights. Sadly, with the rising cry of tank players and Riot's insistence on nerfs over buffs, we might very well dip back into the dark ages of small brain high durability metas...which, again, will eventually lead to a high damage meta to combat overwhelming tanking. Unless Riot does a bang-up job with their itemization pass. That'd be nice.

BenLegend4431 votes

{quoted}

This is false.

Defensive creep slows down fights, yes, but the end result is that tactics go out the window. There is no punishment, no "strategy", and no actual thought put into these fights. Tank metas are slow, brainless matches of attrition where the winner ends up being who can outstat who. This myth that "Tank meta fights are big brain!" needs to be dispelled because they are poison to strategy, not a buffer to it.

Comparatively, while you can argue it, damage metas actually require MORE strategic play. Because the punishment threshold is so high, it means there is less room to make mistakes. Every move, cooldown and tool must be used sparringly. It's also why damage metas upset lower-tier players the most while conversely they love tank metas the most: Punishment is highest in a damage meta, meaning their blatant and frequent mistakes are punished. Punishment is lowest in tank metas, where a player can dive 1v5 and get out with 1/2 HP get little-to-no punishment for bad plays that are frequently made.

Both can be a problem but we need to get rid of this myth that tank metas are high strategy. They're just problematic for different reasons: One can be too punishing while the other is not punishing enough.

Karthus wants to eat as many skillshots as he can to die and nuke the enemy team. He wants to die lol.

Poske2 votes

No offense but this is bunch of nonsense

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

This is false.

Defensive creep slows down fights, yes, but the end result is that tactics go out the window. There is no punishment, no "strategy", and no actual thought put into these fights. Tank metas are slow, brainless matches of attrition where the winner ends up being who can outstat who. This myth that "Tank meta fights are big brain!" needs to be dispelled because they are poison to strategy, not a buffer to it.

Comparatively, while you can argue it, damage metas actually require MORE strategic play. Because the punishment threshold is so high, it means there is less room to make mistakes. Every move, cooldown and tool must be used sparringly. It's also why damage metas upset lower-tier players the most while conversely they love tank metas the most: Punishment is highest in a damage meta, meaning their blatant and frequent mistakes are punished. Punishment is lowest in tank metas, where a player can dive 1v5 and get out with 1/2 HP get little-to-no punishment for bad plays that are frequently made.

Both can be a problem but we need to get rid of this myth that tank metas are high strategy. They're just problematic for different reasons: One can be too punishing while the other is not punishing enough.

You are just wrong. Tanks can be outplayed. Tanks can be shredded down.

When damage is so high like it is now, you can’t outplay it. When I lose 1/4th of my hp to a stray ludens proc, I wasn’t outplayed.

What can you do to stop a tank. Hmmmm

Shred him Chain cc him Kite him Ignore him and get the threats Bully him early

What can you do to a burst mage? Burst them? Cc them. That’s all.

The counter to something should not be “can’t beat em? Join em!”

Paroe10 votes

So i had a piece by piece response all typed up... it got eaten, but i realized something. You hate tanks and... ... You hate protection. You also equate bruisers TO tanks despite them not being defensive champions in the slightest.

Your item complaints in shields - those are all fighter or bruiser items. Expensive. Outside an actual tanks effective reach. Your support item complaints - there are 0 items with item CDR. I dont know where you pulled that out of... but you should put it away. ENCHANTER support itemization is some of the best sustain support items in the game, and theyre cheap by need; supports dont make a lot of gold. TANK support itemization though? Complete. Garbage. Hugely ineffective considering their budget and requires a laners income to make work properly... Knights vow is barely an item, and you dont get it for the carry damage reduction. You get it for the carry sustain. Locket of the iron solari is only ever gotten by utility supports like thresh and rakan nowadays.

Ill finish off with your champion complaints here... Remember this because it is VERY true and you seem to have forgotten it: A tank even is a tank behind.

Braum: Hes what a tank should be, a champion who protects allies via interception. He is not better than yasuo as you imply, and while he does shine in protect the marksman comps... In this meta where damage is cheaper than defense a support tank is a backline tank forced to protect the carry.

Tahm: You seem to think tahm kench is a walking zhonyas? Yes he can protect people, thats WHAT A TANK DOES. do you just want to want to right click everyone to death all the time?!

Rakan: Hes not a defensive champion. Hes an enchanter. His job is to heal, shield, and CC. Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu ALL do the same thing BETTER.

It seems as though youre in the camp of "i should be able to deal all the damage" and "this game needs less defenses so i can do more damage". You, sir, are in the wrong camp. Period.

Damage in this game needs to be reduced so that the meta isnt stagnant. Marksmen in this game need to be reworked as a whole so that the meta doesnt mean "who deals with marksman the best". Assassins in the game need to be reworked so that theyre not hyper mobile.
AD bruiser itemization needs to be toned WAY down, AP bruiser itemization needs some buffs on the AP front. AP itemization in general needs some flat AP buffs.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

{quoted}

You also equate bruisers TO tanks despite them not being defensive champions in the slightest.

Incorrect. I have no problems with tanks. I don't mind tanks being played. Some of my most played champions are Sejuani, Naut, Zac and Blitzcrank. What I do have a problem with is the double standard given to tanks vs. damage dealers that is currently going on.

I also have no problem with protection. Notice how I didn't bring up Taric despite him having arguably the strongest team-wide defensive tool in the game. That's because he has an immensely low mana pool and has a cost for the durability he can bring...much less so than other characters. Also, fighters/bruisers ARE defensive champions. They're not tanks, as you said, but they do dip into heavy defensive itemization because they have to stay alive. So right away, your main point that I hate tanks is moot.

Your item complaints in shields - those are all fighter or bruiser items. Expensive. Outside an actual tanks effective reach. Your support item complaints - there are 0 items with item CDR. I dont know where you pulled that out of... but you should put it away. ENCHANTER support itemization is some of the best sustain support items in the game, and theyre cheap by need; supports dont make a lot of gold.

While you are right that there aren't any items, there are runes that lower item CDR. Most supports take these because of how many actives they have. Also: "These are all fighter/bruiser items" is again incorrect. Phantom Dancer is not a tank/brusier item. Hexdrinker/Maw sees play on a variety of champions. Seraphs is not a tank/bruiser item. There is a shield item/defensive item for almost every flavor of champion in the game.

If tank itemization was also as bad as you say it is, you'd see supportive tanks seeing less play. Yet you don't, because those champions have powerful innate kits on top of having great items to build. You're also incorrect in supports "not making as much" as other classes. The monetary gap between a Season 9 support and a Season 3 support is like comparing a mansion to an outhouse.

Ill finish off with your champion complaints here... Remember this because it is VERY true and you seem to have forgotten it: A tank even is a tank behind.

A tank should not be a tank if behind. Is an ADC an ADC if they fall behind? No. They're a detriment. They're not carrying the game. They cannot do their job. Again, a double standard: If an assassin falls behind he shouldn't be able to do anything because he missed his window. If a tank falls behind he deserves to be able to still do his job because tanks need special status.

Yes, Braum is the ideal tank. He's also the most problematic one because of how ideal he is. Yes, Tahm is a walking zhonyas. That's not what a tank does. And Rakan is absolutely an initiation tank. He has a playpattern very similar to other offensive champions: Dive in, snare/CC as much as possible. It's why Rakan best runes are defensive ones.

This is the problem with your entire argument: You assume Braum/Kench/etc. doing these things is fine and "what an ideal tank should be" despite the fact that they're the reason why defensive tanking has fallen away in favor of offensive tanking: You're not going to do anything better than Braum/Kench without grossly pushing the boundary of the supportive tanking tree.

It seems as though youre in the camp of "i should be able to deal all the damage" and "this game needs less defenses so i can do more damage". You, sir, are in the wrong camp. Period.

Again, wrong. It's like you completely glossed over my points and only saw "I HATE TANKS RAW RAW KILL ALL TANKS". My point is not "the game needs less defense", my point is that "Defensive creep is often overlooked and a huge part of the problem when it comes to damage". Again, you're one of those people I pointed out in my conclusion: Nerfing damage will not fix defensive creep, which will cause damage creep to rise again, which in turn creates the cycle we're currently in now.

If you want to see real changes to the game, you need to dis-spell the double standard that tanks are not part of the problem, because they absolutely are. Supports as well but then you get the hybrid of tank supports which are routinely massive problems. (Alistar is still a pick ban champ despite retaining his kit since season 1).

Kazekiba4 votes

An ADC can absolutely do their job if they're behind. Can an ADCarry melt towers and dish out extreme DPS from a huge gold deficit if played well, protected, and untouched? Yes.

Can a tank eat CC and lock down priority threats long enough for the ADC and midlane/jungle to win a fight or take objectives if theyre behind? The answer is no. Tank items do not lead to more effectiveness at buying more tank items, they just make it more of a struggle to deal with you as the game progresses. But if you're 18 minutes into your build, 25 minutes into the game? You're a minion.

Can we PLEASE go back to the other IE, delete Stormrazor, return Spear of Shojin to the item that it never was, revert the Vayne buff, keep the Ezreal nerfs/Tear changes, bring back Banner of Command before they ruined it....

Open bot lane up to mages. Put attack speed back on Youmuu's so ADCs can buy it. Ezreal and Tristana won't want it, but good. They shouldn't. They don't need move speed or armor pen to do their jobs, they have reposition tools for kiting/chasing already.

The ONLY time a tank meta is bad is when Soraka is also good at the same time because that leads to 2 tanks + control mage + and a Soraka, so poke is completely worthless

pickcollins1 votes

An ADC can absolutely do their job if they're behind. Can an ADCarry melt towers and dish out extreme DPS from a huge gold deficit if played well, protected, and untouched? Yes.

This is how you know someone has never played ADC. Most ADCs already suffer from pathetic early games for any particular reason and if they don't get fed in their weakest point in time, they'll either be anywhere from mediocre to useless for the rest of the game.

BenLegend4433 votes

{quoted}

Can an ADCarry melt towers and dish out extreme DPS from a huge gold deficit if played well, protected, and untouched? Yes.

This is how you know someone has never played ADC. Most ADCs already suffer from pathetic early games for any particular reason and if they don't get fed in their weakest point in time, they'll either be anywhere from mediocre to useless for the rest of the game.

Caitlyn is good early game. One of the best ADCs actually

pickcollins1 votes

Ok where to begin.

"Can an ADC dish out extreme damage when behind" no. Play an ADC and let the mid laner farm you for 10 minutes straight, then try to get back into the game. You're paper thin and going for so much as a caster minion will get your health bar disemboweled on the spot. If you've ever played Vayne, Jinx, Miss Fortune, Jhin, or Kai'sa you would understand that.

"Caitlyn is good early game" Have you played the champ...like....at all? As someone who plays Caitlyn to the point where she's my #2 most played champ (gotta love Jinx tho), her early game hinges on her range. That's it. Her damage is pathetic, and so is her AS. Yes you can get the cheeky headshot in to help, but more often than not if they have an aggressive support, good luck. Especially if yours is a potato. Caitlyn doesn't do anything aside from fire a peashooter for the first few minutes of the game. If you close the gap on her to negate her range Advantage literally every ADC has the edge on her.

BenLegend4432 votes

{quoted}

Ok where to begin.

"Can an ADC dish out extreme damage when behind" no. Play an ADC and let the mid laner farm you for 10 minutes straight, then try to get back into the game. You're paper thin and going for so much as a caster minion will get your health bar disemboweled on the spot. If you've ever played Vayne, Jinx, Miss Fortune, Jhin, or Kai'sa you would understand that.

"Caitlyn is good early game" Have you played the champ...like....at all? As someone who plays Caitlyn to the point where she's my #2 most played champ (gotta love Jinx tho), her early game hinges on her range. That's it. Her damage is pathetic, and so is her AS. Yes you can get the cheeky headshot in to help, but more often than not if they have an aggressive support, good luck. Especially if yours is a potato. Caitlyn doesn't do anything aside from fire a peashooter for the first few minutes of the game. If you close the gap on her to negate her range Advantage literally every ADC has the edge on her.

Her early game is good because of her range. She can bully people by poking their health bar when they last hit. The thing about lower elos is that they straight up don't care and just go for you. That is why in the chaos of soloq she seems bad. Play with your range intelligently. 650 aa range is loads more than the 575 most have. Skillcapped Challenger shows that she is viable higher up. Mobalytics ranks her B tier(which is fairly good btw)You are supposed to poke, which is different than say, Kai'Sa or Vayne's playstyle. I think the type of play you're looking for is the MSI highlight ones. Where the bot lane tower dives the other. Cait has to poke them down. To try and play her like Jinx(rockets everywhere, anybody?) is not a good idea. She isn't meant to be that way.

Btw, the "let the enemy farm you and see how you do" scenario applies to everyone. If Karthus lets people farm him, he can't delete you with the R key.

Iota Theta3 votes

A tank even is a tank behind.

A tank should not be a tank if behind.

I think you may have misinterpreted the wording. They aren’t saying a tank is still a tank if behind. This is actually true, as it currently feels terrible if you can’t get your defensive items and so you can’t properly do your job (I’ve been flamed on Amumu because I got set behind in jungle and couldn’t get my items, and my ally said “And here I was told a tank can still do their job even if set behind).

The first line is saying that if a tank is going even, then they’ll be considered behind, much like the casters say with Jayce if be goes even in lane when you pick him to bully. Essentially, as it is, a tank needs to get ahead early in order to properly tank.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HE5QZwEr,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-04-11T20:03:33.136+0000)

I think you may have misinterpreted the wording. They aren’t saying a tank is still a tank if behind. This is actually true, as it currently feels terrible if you can’t get your defensive items and so you can’t properly do your job (I’ve been flamed on Amumu because I got set behind in jungle and couldn’t get my items, and my ally said “And here I was told a tank can still do their job even if set behind).

The first line is saying that if a tank is going even, then they’ll be considered behind, much like the casters say with Jayce if be goes even in lane when you pick him to bully. Essentially, as it is, a tank needs to get ahead early in order to properly tank.

Indeed. Because offense outscales defense so much, a tank even is behind because they arent effective unless theyre at least an item ahead. Once team fighting starts if anyone is ahead of that tank, they get blown up as well.

item 3075 item 3068 item 3047 item 3065 beats item 3071 item 3053 item 3047 and item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 But loses to item 3053 item 3071 item 3161 item 3047 and item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 item 3006

Rock MD5 votes

{quoted}

Ill finish off with your champion complaints here... Remember this because it is VERY true and you seem to have forgotten it: A tank even is a tank behind.

And they can still set up with good cc even if they're 0/5.

Malphite that's 0/5, 40 cs down? Still can land a game winning ultimate.

Sej that got outjungled by Kha'Zix all game? Still can lock him down for the team.

Tanks have a 1-2 item time to shine in terms of raw 1v1 potential but after that their capability to 1v1 anything should be limited for how much teamfight power they pack. Also, if they're good at the 1v1 then bruisers lose their place again.

Braum: Hes what a tank should be, a champion who protects allies via interception. He is not better than yasuo as you imply, and while he does shine in protect the marksman comps... In this meta where damage is cheaper than defense a support tank is a backline tank forced to protect the carry.

jfc. I've said it 1000x times but Braum is literally the best support in the game. He provides so much to his team. He's got great setup, phenomenal peel, he's extremely tanky, there's a reason he's the most picked support of all time in competitive. Yasuo shows up for a couple patches, probably because Riot broke crit items, and then falls off again. Yasuo MIGHT be a better champion in solo queue right now but Braum will always be a top 3 support.

Tahm: You seem to think tahm kench is a walking zhonyas? Yes he can protect people, thats WHAT A TANK DOES. do you just want to want to right click everyone to death all the time?!

Tahm completely warps the game with his W. He's been destroyed one piece of his kit at a time, because the spell is so disgustingly powerful. We're now left with a champion with a 45% winrate because he just can't exist outside of pro play and it's fucking sad. I would love to nerf that ability into the ground if it means Riot would put more power back into the rest of his kit.

Rakan: Hes not a defensive champion. Hes an enchanter. His job is to heal, shield, and CC.

.... moving on.

Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu ALL do the same thing BETTER.

Sona, Soraka, Karma, and Lulu can't engage from a full screen away.

It seems as though youre in the camp of "i should be able to deal all the damage" and "this game needs less defenses so i can do more damage". You, sir, are in the wrong camp. Period.

Fuck I'd rather be in a camp with this guy than some goon who thinks Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu are better champions than Rakan. You literally don't know the role you main and think because you can't utilize it it's weak.

Damage in this game needs to be reduced so that the meta isnt stagnant.

Do you have proof damage is stagnating this game? Because the most stagnant this game got was season 7, where almost no toplaners and jgs were viable, and they all ran Gargoyle/Locket, 3 mids were viable (Orianna, Malzahar, Galio), adc was reduced to late-game scaling crit champs, and bot lane was only enchanters.

Marksmen in this game need to be reworked as a whole so that the meta doesnt mean "who deals with marksman the best".

That's going to happen EVERY SINGLE TIME there is a role where you're looking for late-game dps. Do you think that you can nerf or rework them into not being the center of games?

Assassins in the game need to be reworked so that theyre not hyper mobile.

Kk let's just remove fundamental parts of gameplay because you don't like being punished for getting caught out.

AD bruiser itemization needs to be toned WAY down, AP bruiser itemization needs some buffs on the AP front.

AP bruiser itemization doesn't exist and Riot is working on that.

AP itemization in general needs some flat AP buffs.

Maybe some buffs to DRing since Cpot is bar none the best starting item but would be nice but why would you just tack on flat AP when you have a number of champions that absolutely destroy the game with their damage? WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT DAMAGE CREEP AND THEN BUFFING THE HIGHEST AOE CLASS IN THE GAME???

and I get it, it's tiring to see the same champions over and over again, especially when class is geared to only punish mistakes you make.

But you really have to see the double standards. I'm sure if I went in and complained about tanks you'd tell me that I just need to play better.

Kazekiba7 votes

Yeah we don't have 2180 HP locket shields hitting 5 people, while also passively giving them +30 MR.

Braum's W is vastly worse than Yasuo's and know why? The very thing people ask for changes to balance Windwall the most, or at least 2nd/3rd most. Braum can only negate one missile. ONE. And then his W just absorbs it, but it doesn't outright erase it from the game. Yes, Braum can move. But Braum can also be CCd during it. Braum can be pulled away by a Kench, by a Thresh hook. Braum can be killed by a Jinx ult hitting the wall.

Yasuo can't. Yasuo won't get hit by that SMDR, he won't be hooked. being eaten by kench doesn't erase the wall's presence by any means.

And yeah we have Gargoyle stoneplate, which I'm somewhat surprised you didn't mention. Death's Dance, which just buys you time it doesn't actually save you, can also hurt your recall timings. Though the buff to applying to True damage too is perhaps a bit over the top.

The reason you don't see Zeds in pro play is because his lane is too dependent on the Jungler not letting him lose his lane, bot lane not warding or playing correctly, and most importantly - The game ending quickly before Zed can be sufficiently slowed down. by the time ADCs can pick up GA and everyone's Stopwatches come online, Zed is just ... gone.

The reason for 2018's diversity is not the high damage of Season 8. It had a lot to do with the overhaul of pro's drafting model (and 10 bans) along with massive class changes in 8.11 and the fallout patches afterward. By the end of the season, it had devolved into the most repetitive matches in LCS history. Aatrox Every. Urgot Single. Braum Game. Kaisa Had. Lucian The. Lissandra Same. Alistar Champions. JarvanIV

D357R0Y3R4 votes

Braum negates one projectile and then forces all projectiles to hit him instead of his allies with 40% damage reduction + the fact that he's tanky af

wrong and wrong

Nyarlathοtep7 votes

This shit again.

Tanks are not nearly as bad as boards makes them out to be

Yeah not really. According to opgg, the first tank (based on tier) is poppy (30) with 49.35% wr. Alternatively the first tank with the best wr is sion with 49.92%. (all these for top ofc) At jungle rammus and nunu boost a wr above 50% and they are quite high in the tier list.

Especially not in pro play

Pro play is a different environment. Pro play is not the same as soloq. Period.

Mages have access to better protective items than they've ever had without having to dip too far outside of their pool. Things like Protobelt, Abyssal Mask and Seraphs are all better at keeping mages alive,

Wait wait WAT? The only defensive items mages have are seraph's (that is gated behind stacking as such a small portion of mages can stack it fast enough) and zhonyas. Protobelt offers 0 defensive stats (outside of hp but that hardly increases durability without a hefty amount of resistances) and abyssal is useless on mages that dont hug the enemy (aka EVERYONE even battle mages arent that close).

not to mention Aftershock letting them tank absurd amounts of damage while going ham

Well this is what happens when damage creep is so damn high. In order to avoid getting bursted you invest into defensive shit. Plus, its riot's fault for not making aftershock scale exclusively with defensive stats.

tanks in general have more HP now more than ever

Im pretty sure tanks had more hp in the past.

Fighters still get great items like Steraks (more on that) or self-sustain (More on that too.)

Well to be fair, when damage creep increases, so does defensive creep (in theory at least). Thats a simple action-reaction.

Champions with massive amounts of defensive abilities on low CDs like Irelia and Fiora.

Low cd? Wtf. Irelia's w is on a 20-12 cd. And fiora's w is on a 24-16 cd. At late game yeah it might be lower but thats a whole different matter (cd creep to be precise). 20 and 24 sec cd is hardly low.

It's telling when Vi, one of the most offensive-minded divers in the game, had her defenses buffed over her offenses.

Maybe her dmg was oke and her durability was weak? (a real question, i know nothing about vi)

He can eat skillshots and projectiles with his W on a moving body that can stick to a target, far better than the oft complained about Yasuo,

On the other hand yasuo's windwall can negate everything and protect you and your team from any effect as long as its a projectile.

Windwall you can bait out and force on a 20-something CD. You can't exactly play around Tahm eating your enemy unless you have a DOT.

Wait wat? So you are saying you can bait windwall and force it to go on a 20 (26 to be precise) yet you cant do it on tahm? And why exactly? You cant threaten his adc and thus force him to devour him? And if you can play around windwall's cd then you can definitely play around devour's cd too. Its on a 28 sec cd, which starts after the ally has when out.

, the reasoning is that defensive creep is much more subtle than any sort of other creep.

And less harmful to overall experience. You dont have to react to a fed rengar. And there is no fun whatsoever when there is a fed assassin around.

But most of all: Ignoring it won't fix anything. If you nerf damage and defense stays the same, you end up with the same situation:

Alternatively, if you nerf both damage AND defense, chances are that we will have the same shit. For example, Champ A has an hp of 1000, ad of 100 and 100 armour. After this nerf, he will have 500 hp, 50 ad and 50 armour (another example you can see is at WoW Battle for azeroth). So is there a difference? No ofc not. Defensive creep will exists as long as damage creep exists. The only thing such a nerf will do is lower creeps a bit. But it will still exist and be problematic. We wont be complaing about rengar dealing 1000+ dmg. We will be complaining about him dealing 500+ dmg.

Pandemic Punch7 votes

Tanks have been the worst class in the game since conqueror came out. Statistically speaking and practically speaking. They barely survive only a few matchups top lane, and they struggle in the jungle. The only tanks that are doing ok from the jungle are the ones that had their DAMAGE buffed. Not their defense.

disregardable4 votes

The game has been too fast for like 6 years. They try to add an inch of counterplay and you call it defensive creep.

Moody P4 votes

I think the problem lies in riots obsession for visibility. Simple stats and auras that could just give defense or regen have been shuffled out of the way for flashy but short lived bursts of defense. Fighters are squishier than ever over the course of a game, for example but they get that really BIG shield from Steraks now, so they get a nice little window where they have a huge buffer to either win the fight or die anyway.

The issue with Braun Tahm and other defenses (including on tanks), IMO is that they're generalist defenses almost all of the time. They protect against everything and anything short of true damage, which is still blocked by shields. I think of their defenses had been more specific against certain attacks (e.g armor, on hit reductions, magic shields etc( the arms race of defense and offense would not have gotten near as bad

I have long argued that we should be more accepting of auras and a return to simplicity.

KFCeytron4 votes

It's currently pretty common to kill or be killed in a fraction of a second. This necessitates good macro play at the cost of invalidating micro. When Diana can pop WRQR from over a wall and kill you in 0.1 seconds, the only way to avoid such a fate is to ward, stay with your team, buy GA, and so on. If you don't do those things, and she gets to you, there's no button you can press or decision you can make to change the outcome at that point. The game is more fun when macro and micro both matter for both teams.

As it stands, offense is totally invalidating defense in more situations than some players are comfortable with, Tahm W (which starts with a 28-second CD when used on an ally compared to a 26-second CD for Yasuo's W) notwithstanding.

Also, putting assassins into a PvP game is a terrible idea, and pitting melee characters against ranged characters is a recipe for disaster.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Problem is riot's been catering to marksmen & assassins more than any other class for the past few years, and it's obvious when they've hybridized offensive items to have significant durability; something they said in the early years would be a bad idea because it would become a horrendous balancing nightmare, and abusive on any champions with built-in safety nets. item 3812 item 3814 item 3026 item 3109 item 4026 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3161 item 3053 item 3072 item 3091 Not to mention in the class reworks of season 6 & 7, tanky items across the board got nerfed, and have stayed that way since. Defencive creep has been skewed to favor offensive champions.

nm10103 votes

One man has a rusty knife and a different man is wrapped in a thick padding. Eventually the man with a knife can injure the man with padding, but it will take a long time. This was season 4.

Then after damage creep started we saw the man with a rusty knife given a handgun instead. The man with padding was not going to live long against bullets.

Nowadays the man has been given a shotgun, but the other man's padding has been upgraded to a bullet proof vest and helmet. This doesn't make him immune to bullets, but if he gets hit in the right areas he can mitigate the damage.

Damage has still outclassed defense by a large margin, but certain items/runes, if used correctly, can increase lifespan.

Its All Skillzz4 votes

{quoted}

One man has a rusty knife and a different man is wrapped in a thick padding. Eventually the man with a knife can injure the man with padding, but it will take a long time. This was season 4.

Then after damage creep started we saw the man with a rusty knife given a handgun instead. The man with padding was not going to live long against bullets.

Nowadays the man has been given a shotgun, but the other man's padding has been upgraded to a bullet proof vest and helmet. This doesn't make him immune to bullets, but if he gets hit in the right areas he can mitigate the damage.

Damage has still outclassed defense by a large margin, but certain items/runes, if used correctly, can increase lifespan.

i feel the man with a rusty knife was given a bazooka and the guy in padding was downgraded to toiletpaper, this is how it felt to play during most of s8. and then it shifted to padding guy getting rid of his defense and opting to get a rusty knife and the person who struck first won.

VoraciousX2 votes

I agree for the most part(mainly about supports), but one thing I majorly disagree with is that mid laners have good defense. I want old Banshee's back, and I want old Abyssal Scepter back, and I want old GA back. Also Abyssal Mask only works on like 3 mid lane champions. Banshee's sucks having damage added on to it. It was better as a full defensive purchase because the passive sucks ass, making the entire item suck ass unless the passive blocks the exact thing you want it to. Zhonya's is the only good DEFENSIVE item and it's not because of it's defenses, it's because it has a powerful active. Seraph's Embrace hasn't changed, but no one seems to build it outside of the normal users, Cassiopeia, Anivia, etc. Protobelt is a few hundred HP, but nothing special and no other defensive stats to go with it.

I miss actually building ONE full defensive item on champs by end game. Building FULL damage is a little TOO frustrating. It's why I actually build Spirit Visage on Kat now. Much better than Banshee's Veil even with it's passive, the health and heal buff help quite a bit. Banshee's just needs a revert, and I'd love for a lot of other items to be reverted as well(Athene's, Abyssal Scepter, GA).

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

I agree for the most part(mainly about supports), but one thing I majorly disagree with is that mid laners have good defense. I want old Banshee's back, and I want old Abyssal Scepter back. Also Abyssal Mask only works on like 3 mid lane champions.

Abyssal was too strong, yet even in its current incarnation it's powerful. Zhonyas is also bar-none the best defensive item in the game and the gold standard for defensive items for damage classes. If any other class would take it, everyone would take Zhonyas. Mage items also allow for the greatest double-dip in terms of defense and offense, itemization that bruisers wish they could partake in, making almost every class of mage good in some capacity: Short range battle mages (Lissandra, Ryze), medium range mages (Swain, Neeko), close range dive mages (Galio, LeBlanc, Karthus) and even some stall champs like Anivia.

Again, it's a myth perpetuated by boards that mages are in some crippled state when in actuality mages haven't truly been bad since about Season 3 or 4.

VoraciousX2 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal was too strong, yet even in its current incarnation it's powerful. Zhonyas is also bar-none the best defensive item in the game and the gold standard for defensive items for damage classes. If any other class would take it, everyone would take Zhonyas. Mage items also allow for the greatest double-dip in terms of defense and offense, itemization that bruisers wish they could partake in, making almost every class of mage good in some capacity: Short range battle mages (Lissandra, Ryze), medium range mages (Swain, Neeko), close range dive mages (Galio, LeBlanc, Karthus) and even some stall champs like Anivia.

Again, it's a myth perpetuated by boards that mages are in some crippled state when in actuality mages haven't truly been bad since about Season 3 or 4.

I never disagreed with zhonya's being the strongest defensive item in the game, but it's not because of it's ACTUAL defenses, it's because of it's active. Outside of it's active, it's mediocre at best. This is exactly why Banshee's sucks ass. The passive is crap, and the stats are mediocre. They just wanted to make it similar to Zhonya's, but ended up making it terrible. It needs to be a pure defensive item again, and then maybe I would think about actually building it at some point. Abyssal Mask is built by very few champions who can use it. Some champions(like Kat) could use it, if it wasn't like 50% mana/mana sustain. You're not gonna survive very long with 45 armor, or 60 MR, especially without health, but the items that give health generally give mana or mana sustain, outside of like...2?

BenLegend4432 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal was too strong, yet even in its current incarnation it's powerful. Zhonyas is also bar-none the best defensive item in the game and the gold standard for defensive items for damage classes. If any other class would take it, everyone would take Zhonyas. Mage items also allow for the greatest double-dip in terms of defense and offense, itemization that bruisers wish they could partake in, making almost every class of mage good in some capacity: Short range battle mages (Lissandra, Ryze), medium range mages (Swain, Neeko), close range dive mages (Galio, LeBlanc, Karthus) and even some stall champs like Anivia.

Again, it's a myth perpetuated by boards that mages are in some crippled state when in actuality mages haven't truly been bad since about Season 3 or 4.

Assassins can take the defensive items and ruin your day. Akali takes Zhonyas and with rank 5 shroud 45% cdr,she can have literally 22.5 seconds of invuln/invis. Zed/LB/Talon messes up and they walk away with like 50 hp. Zhonya to negate any finisher ult that comes after them. Kai'Sa can also take Zhonyas(or any defensive item with any type of offensive capability). It's annoying.

Saezio2 votes

This is bullshit.

There is straight up 20+ characters you can't build defence against and not die within 5 seconds. Tanks should be allowed to tank if they forego all offence and want to be a meat shield. If you think a tank can do that right now, you are more naive than Forest Gump.

Linna Excel2 votes

Talked about defensive creep, didn't talk about yasuo's windwall or the crazy mobility his E provides. All you had to do was YASUO REEE!!! and you would have gotten 100 up votes.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

I think the biggest problem with the thread is you are complaining about defense when most people are complaining about offense being too high. I'm not sure there's too much damage in the game but you are going against the grain. Another issue is you are picking on TK and Braum, both low win rate champs with TK being the worst support and the worst champ in the game. TBH he does deserve being the worst champ simply because he is one of the most anti-fun champs in the game. I think that if you mentioned that part of the reasons they have to be so bad is that they've got too many tools in their kit and are too good in pro play because of it, you'd have gone a little further.

I think another issue is a part of defensive creep is in response to the damage creep over the years. These things are an arms race and you really should look at both of them together.

uNhoLeee1 votes

agreed.

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