New Karma Players Need to Understand Why Old Karma Was Better

Winterkill··7 votes·2,608 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59mZOi0NBc

I know New and Support Karma players are very stubborn and do not want anything to be done to her. What you guys need to understand is that, despite the constant removal of actual gameplay identity abilities by Developers, Karma is nothing without her number buffs. If I champion has to be buffed so much for the past 5 years, there is a problem with the work that was done on her. The proof is in the exact state of Karma right now. Yet again, Developers had to buff her numbers to get Karma to a place where she isn't oppressive in worlds and is still playable. How can Karma do that as a Mage when she is outclassed as a Mage and only has one damage move? How can Karma be a successful and Unique Support when the entire function of her Mantra E already exists in the game as item actives and there are Supports that outclass her? No matter how you look at this champion, the problems lie down to a gameplay identity level. Karma just gets outdone in everything she tries to do by other champions. Zyra does more damage and poke damage. Nami and Lulu are better at protecting their allies than Karma. Janna and Sona are better with CC and disengage than Karma. Karma is just really not good at anything and she isn't unique at all. The problem is she has NO gameplay identity to do that.

Karma's old kit she could deal damage with basic Q but in a fight also heal with Mantra Q if need be. Paired with her old Passive, Karma could make extremely tactful plays to bait enemies into fights. Karma's old W and Mantra W was by far better than the abused mess we have now. It is actually better than the new ally Mechanic that Mantra W will have, for similar over powered ally mechanics Ryze, Sejuani and Kalista have that puts them constantly in a nerfed state. Karma's E was protection but it also could deal damage with Mantra E. There was a damage component but also a protective component to Karma's basic abilities and Mantra abilities. Current Karma is 10x worse than old Karma because there is just one usage with Mantra now and it's just an upgraded version of the basic ability. Before there was her basic abilities but Mantra abilities that did the same thing but also added something unique to the Mantra like healing, damage, or more an ally function with CC. That's gone with Karma now and she is outclassed by so many champions that do her basic abilities and Mantra abilities much better.

What was unique about Old Karma is she was a champion that could combo different Mantra and basic abilities into one another. If she had this identity today, minus the passive, Karma wouldn't be as strong as a Soraka healing or Lulu protection. What Karma would be good at though is having the ability to combo a Q, healing Mantra Q, with a damage Mantra E to make flashy and interesting plays that no other champion could do. That is because she could use her Mantra to combo into different effects her Mantar abilities have with basic abilities.


The new rework Karma is getting more front loaded damage on to her Mantra Q that is blocked by anything first hit, will most likely be nerfed because of how powerful the new Mantra W will be, makes the explosion of Mantra Q useless now, and makes her even more unbearable to play against. The issue was never having the ability to damage as Karma. The issue was always the functionality of her only damage option and having only one damage option. Instead Karma could have a Mantra Q that is not inflated with so much damage, is ground targetted, and remove the healing from Mantra W and place it on the explosion of Mantra Q instead.

The Mantra W will be broken and dicate all future nerfs and complications with Karma. On top of that, the new Mantra W mechanic makes entirely no sense on a champion like Karma when it makes more sense on a champion like Zilean. For similair champions like Sejuani, Kalista and Ryze who all have parts of their kits that require allies to be useful and is overpowered in coordinated teams, Karma will have this new Mantra W that requires her to have an ally and use the new mehcanic in coordinated and useful teams. There is no and, if or buts about the ability. This ability will single handedly making Karma broken, unfair to play against, and dictate what is, again, nerfed on Karma. Karma will be in the never ending state Kalista, Ryze and Sejuani are in. Just give her an ally mechanic that has to deal with redirecting damage back at enemies from allies.

Mantra E is the most unorginal and bland excuse of an ability in the game. Meddler is very gunhoe on keeping this original and iconic ability on Karma, but he fails to see that is offers nothing else that another champion already does and what an item actives already does. Every champion can do what Karma's Mantra E does. Bringing back her old Shield Bomb is not the answer too. Shield Bomb was removed for no reason and placed on a new champion. It pains me to see something that was much better and more iconic on Karma taken away and put on something new and flashy. There are so many direction the Developers could take with Mantra E like a massive shield place don the floor that increases ally and Karma damage in the field, allowing Mantra E to only speed up allies but destoy, damage and explode all shields active on the field, or even use old Shield Bomb but sperate the stats of it so it does more damage when AP is buit but less strength of the shield if she doesn't build shield enchancing items. Remember, abilities that already exist in the game from champions and two item actives means that Mantra E is the best ability on Karma. It was also buffed and nerfed more than once for the past 5 years and remains the single reason why Karma is ever relavent in the game. If an ability has to be buffed to the point that it makes Karma relvanet in the game, there is a problem with the ability and kit.

14 Comments

Cygrid7 votes

100% agree.

old karma was the first champion i felt comfy play as agressive support, and in my opinion was the best for it.

i stopped with the rework.

next time i will share the best guide that explainedd me how to love old karma and why she was nice.

Cygrid2 votes

found it. thanks to the writer that perfectly understood karma technical and best team support.

https://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/the-comprehensive-karma-72191

meteorbreaker4 votes

I do not think that all the work that is being done now on Karma is interesting. Her one-sidedness is very, very obvious.Her early poke (r+q) and shield ms( r+e) in lategame remains the same. I think it is worth changing her gameplay, can remove the massive shield or change her early poke(r – q combo). The old Karma was an authentic champion, strange and misunderstood, but it was unique and at the same time there was more flexibility in her gameplay.

Moody P3 votes

Old karma was one of the most toxic kits in the game

Stop asking for its return, you're the only ones who want it

Icy Hot Shoto2 votes

Isn't Riot giving her back her old w though? Unless they changed their minds, seems like even Riot thinks some parts of old Karma were better.

Moody P3 votes

No, this is a new effect entirely

Winterkill3 votes

Not really. There are a ton of players that want it back or want more damage options on her kit.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HBjtwRHi,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-14T12:43:29.566+0000)

Old karma was one of the most toxic kits in the game

Stop asking for its return, you're the only ones who want it

It is a tiny, tiny echo chamber of delusional people who think that a kit that virtually no one played was the best thing ever in every way and very popular ("a ton of players that want it back" LOOOOL), and they also apparently perpetuate flat-out falsehoods like "new Karma only has one damage move." No amount of discussion or logic will ever convince them otherwise.

KFCeytron2 votes

Look, no one played old Karma, and I stopped reading your wall of text when you said she (referring to NEW Karma, for those who can't read) "only has one damage move." She has two damaging abilities, and the mage with only one damaging ability (Zilean) is fine.

Cygrid2 votes

{quoted}

Look, no one played old Karma, and I stopped reading your wall of text when you said she "only has one damage move." She has two damaging abilities, and the mage with only one damaging ability (Zilean) is fine.

3 damage abilities. eventually 4 because cdr of the q (4sec in late game). and you healed and shielded at same time. it's crazy : it is old karma.

old karma stays in the race at late game when zilean don't.

KFCeytron2 votes

{quoted}

3 damage abilities. eventually 4 because cdr of the q (4sec in late game). and you healed and shielded at same time. it's crazy : it is old karma.

old karma stays in the race at late game when zilean don't.

The OP's claim was that new Karma only has one damaging ability. This is false. Her Q and W are damaging abilities.

No one played old Karma. That kit wasn't "better" by any means. It was so bad that Karma got removed from the free rotation.

Zilean's late game damage and utility are fine.

Cygrid1 votes

{quoted}

The OP's claim was that new Karma only has one damaging ability. This is false. Her Q and W are damaging abilities.

No one played old Karma. That kit wasn't "better" by any means. It was so bad that Karma got removed from the free rotation.

Zilean's late game damage and utility are fine.

please read the guide i shared previously. that's explain more about old karma.

they're a lot who were playing old karma. i don't know where you see she got removed from free rotation.

it was a technical char, hard to play but very nice and efficient after trial. just not for newbies.

KFCeytron2 votes

{quoted}

please read the guide i shared previously. that's explain more about old karma.

they're a lot who were playing old karma. i don't know where you see she got removed from free rotation.

it was a technical char, hard to play but very nice and efficient after trial. just not for newbies.

This is patently false. Old Karma had a play rate near zero, and was indeed removed from the rotation. References 1 (highlight from that: "falls off like a stone lategame due to 2 damage spells, no ultimate. No, W dosen't count as a damage spell." - hmm, doesn't sound like "old karma stays in the race at late game" to me), 2, 3, and more if I wanted to spend more than a minute on this.

Cygrid2 votes

{quoted}

This is patently false. Old Karma had a play rate near zero, and was indeed removed from the rotation. References 1 (highlight from that: "falls off like a stone lategame due to 2 damage spells, no ultimate. No, W dosen't count as a damage spell." - hmm, doesn't sound like "old karma stays in the race at late game" to me), 2, 3, and more if I wanted to spend more than a minute on this.

Thank you for references . you are true, it seems karma was not into rotation since 2012.

but in other hand, your links don't mean that it was because she was bad , as old Karma wasn't the only to don't be into rotation too. Look fo exemple Evelynn : she wasn't too, seemed in prior to be reworked, but anyone here that remember the old evelynn will then remember the 30/0 she could do in a game , and how hard it was to check her invisibility and trap her.

In my opinion she - old Karma - was just not easy to play for new comers, not like others champions. This and the fact she needed to be played as AP to be a good support : if you look the guide i shared, you'll see a build that remember any AP mid.

Actually old karma was a AP-bot : support very good when played as AP, because she didn't need object's help to support well and quickly. she got all for her ( team heal , shield, team quickness, team slower, 3 crazy damages), all operation was just in movement and where to place her , as Orianna for exemple.

Please, i gently and politly insist : sincerely check at the guide i shared. Take time to read it , look at the advices, objects to buy, early/mid/late game play. be sincerely honest about how to read and then please check back your feelings.

oh , and : you said W doesn't count and it is the mistake a lot of people does. I played old karma as my main for a year or two, and i can assure you W was in the combo to harass and kill ( with a mob , a flare , or another heroe ) . especially in bottom lane.

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