These juggernauts are unfun

chipndip1·Sep 3, 2015·20 votes·1,755 views

These guys are way too strong. I can understand if one of these dudes were AHEAD and became unkillable wrecking balls of destruction, but holy hell...that shit happens when they're doing just "decent" or "ok". The amount of effort it takes in scratching these guys is immense, just as a standard tank, but they're tankier earlier and deal WAY more damage than tanks do. I used to ban Devourer jgs. Now I just ban Skarner/Garen every game. You can say "kite them", but that "solution" is lazy. These guys have tools to reach targets in one fashion or another, and unless your team is straight up stomping the opposition, you can't escape these guys forever. They're GONNA get their hands on someone, and due to their obnoxiously high damage output coupled with their obviously high defenses, they can straight up blow up anyone they get their hands on.

Like, what the hell outside of "kite kite kite" is one supposed to do with these mofos? Getting real sick of each patch making it harder and harder to vouch for the state of balance in this game.

39 Comments

Variks the LoyalSep 3, 20157 votes

"Kiting" is their weakness. If you're someone who can't kite, or struggles with kiting, then you'll have a bad time against juggernauts.

But if you're Lissandra or Kalista or Ezreal or Lucian, you'll have a leg up.

They're supposed to be able to blow up anyone they get their hands on. It's your job to prevent them from getting hands on anybody.

BakedLotionSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Kiting" is their weakness. If you're someone who can't kite, or struggles with kiting, then you'll have a bad time against juggernauts.

But if you're Lissandra or Kalista or Ezreal or Lucian, you'll have a leg up.

They're supposed to be able to blow up anyone they get their hands on. It's your job to prevent them from getting hands on anybody.

and they buy merc treads and your total cc duration is like 2 secs even with liss. Ezreal can't kite skarner, garen, or darius. He has one fucking blink. One. He has nothing else. He's not considered mobile anymore. Every champion kites way better than he does since he only has one escape while many other champions like vayne caitlyn(has cc on her escape) or lucian with his MS boost.

Once he presses E, he's done for. He has nothing left but triforce or iceborn proc which isnt even close to enough to stop them.

Variks the LoyalSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

and they buy merc treads and your total cc duration is like 2 secs even with liss. Ezreal can't kite skarner, garen, or darius. He has one fucking blink. One. He has nothing else. He's not considered mobile anymore. Every champion kites way better than he does since he only has one escape while many other champions like vayne caitlyn(has cc on her escape) or lucian with his MS boost.

Once he presses E, he's done for. He has nothing left but triforce or iceborn proc which isnt even close to enough to stop them.

Then clearly, you have a crappy Support.

BakedLotionSep 3, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Then clearly, you have a crappy Support.

you're not getting peel in solo queue.

Ariel the CruelSep 3, 20153 votes

Soraka I give out plenty of peels.

catman94Sep 3, 20151 votes

your clearly not using e correctly when running from a juggernaut you should do it over walls and make huge gaps of terrain. Also if your leaving your support behind to do some solo mission in a one v three that's you getting punished for your mistake not because their op. Also they're ment to be taken on by more than one person so trying to solo them with ez isn't the best decision.

FadedpfSep 3, 20151 votes

The main problem is for the tanks that have to take all of the fucking beating. Whats a tank to someone that does 3 times your damage, has anti tank tools in their kit, can soak just as much damage as you can and will shrug off your CC. So being a front liner against a juggernaut as a fighter or tank is complete hell, they will just destroy you while not dying and once you are dead your back line is also dead.

Variks the LoyalSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The main problem is for the tanks that have to take all of the fucking beating. Whats a tank to someone that does 3 times your damage, has anti tank tools in their kit, can soak just as much damage as you can and will shrug off your CC. So being a front liner against a juggernaut as a fighter or tank is complete hell, they will just destroy you while not dying and once you are dead your back line is also dead.

But what they cannot do is kill you in one rotation, and while they focus you, your team kills them.

Or, if they try to pass you to get to your backline, you CC them, while the backline kites and kills them.

chipndip1Sep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But what they cannot do is kill you in one rotation, and while they focus you, your team kills them.

Or, if they try to pass you to get to your backline, you CC them, while the backline kites and kills them.

Only one that can't kill someone in one rotation is Skarner. Garen can, Darius EASILY can since he's by far the most offense-oriented of the juggernauts, and Morde's rotation consists of a possible 9X damage dick slap so that'll obviously put someone in the dirt. Wouldn't underestimate the type of damage potential Riot threw on these guys.

DeaerasSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Kiting" is their weakness. If you're someone who can't kite, or struggles with kiting, then you'll have a bad time against juggernauts.

But if you're Lissandra or Kalista or Ezreal or Lucian, you'll have a leg up.

They're supposed to be able to blow up anyone they get their hands on. It's your job to prevent them from getting hands on anybody.

I played Lucian vs Garen and even with 30% CDR and a blue buff with Nami speeding me up the Garen managed to catch up to me after 6 seconds of kiting, silence me and then proceed to kill me in 1.5 seconds.

PhifeSep 3, 20152 votes

unless its garen or skarner, they can catch up to you no matter what.

catman94Sep 3, 20153 votes

Kite garen ?.? Am I the only one not grasping that. I feel as if kiting Garen is nearly impossible and then you do come close to killing him he just runs away with a million movement speed. the other juggernauts are manageable except Garen.

Singing LarkSep 3, 20151 votes

Kiting Garen is like trying to engage on a Janna.

Nope.avi

TorkonSep 3, 20151 votes

Good god is this a fucking MOBA or has League ascended to some shitty WoW format. Why the fuck would there be an entire character class that blows everything up and insanely hard to kill, so you just have to "kite them".

Shroom JunkieSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Kiting" is their weakness. If you're someone who can't kite, or struggles with kiting, then you'll have a bad time against juggernauts.

But if you're Lissandra or Kalista or Ezreal or Lucian, you'll have a leg up.

They're supposed to be able to blow up anyone they get their hands on. It's your job to prevent them from getting hands on anybody.

oh yeah forgot melee champs can kite owait

DWT12345Sep 3, 20154 votes

Better than the assassin meta

HaIlMonitorSep 3, 20152 votes

Maybe for ADC mains lol. You can build to fight assassins at least. Items like item 3157 item 3155 item 3140 help vs most of the assassins and can save you. How do you stop Garen from Running at 600 MS next to you. Hitting Q, E for one second, R done. Oh yeah and he ran past your whole team and still have 75% hp... So much fun.

Very Hard EngageSep 3, 20152 votes

"save you" isn't the same as being able to outplay or kill them. it might save your hide from the dive that they're doing under your turret. but they'll just try again in ~15seconds, where your actives still wont be off CD and i guarantee they wont fail next time as they've already done quite a bit of damage and you're low or forced out entirely.

the only surefire counter to assassins is the friendship circle. "come on team, lets all join hands now"

HaIlMonitorSep 3, 20152 votes

Yeah and ADC's able to 2-3 shot squishies Vayne Draven with self peel with no checks are any less fun lol. Get real. And which assassins are you talking about? Talon takes 30 seconds with full CDR, Zed is longer. Most team fights are less then 10 so how "Save you" not an outplay? It makes it so they waste there full rotation into you and are now standing in the middle of your team as a squishy assassin.

Zed in Every game is 100x better then Vayne Garen Gangplank in every match.

Baron of BreadSep 3, 20151 votes

item 3144 item 3022 item 3044 item 3142 item 1300

Items for your kiting needs.

Chuck CharlesSep 3, 20153 votes

the biggest issue I have with the current juggenauts is not their inherent tankiness or synergy with the fighter items. its that their dmg is honestly insane and it creates this weird issue where you absolutely have to focus them down or you lose the fight...but might lose fight anyway because you can no longer focus the backline. The fact that this happens with or without a lead is kind of depressing. there have been games where I've been losing by almost 20 kills and I see we have a darius on our team and I stay calm. "he will carry me". and sure enough. he can almost 1 v 5....not quite. but almost. and with us there we win fights incredibly easy because they had to literally burn everything to get him. that applies to most of the juggernauts. darius is particularly broken right now, garen not as bad but still too strong.

Slamurai JackSep 3, 20153 votes

You guys wanna know how to beat Juggernaughts? Play a control mage like Viktor Anivia Malzahar Lissandra Veigar Cassiopeia Azir and laugh when they try desperately to push through all of your CC and AOE damage. Spoiler Alert: They can't if you aren't massively behind.

67chromeSep 3, 20152 votes

Like, what the hell outside of "kite kite kite" is one supposed to do with these mofos?

Same thing your supposed to do vs. anything else that cases troubles in a game. Use problem solving skills.

But to put the problem into context, look at it this way: Bruisers, Assassins, and Mages all deal essentially the same damage, and differ by their survival mechanic to last long enough to deliver there payloads.

Bruisers use Defense, Assassins use Mobility, Mages use Range. And light-fighters use a combination of defense and mobility, marksman a mix of mobility and range.

Defense, Mobility, and Range are counter-weights to one another.

If someone is really tanky and you aren't, chances are you're more mobile and/or have better range than them though. Which is one major reason to simply resort to "kite them" as a simple, solid foundation to run with and use as a springboard for other tactical maneuvers.

With 100+ champions it's not like there's a lack of specific mechanics and plays to deal with tanky DPS either, but with 100+ champions: you're looking at a pretty basic solution if you're limiting your problem to an entire archetype.

chipndip1Sep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Same thing your supposed to do vs. anything else that cases troubles in a game. Use problem solving skills.

But to put the problem into context, look at it this way: Bruisers, Assassins, and Mages all deal essentially the same damage, and differ by their survival mechanic to last long enough to deliver there payloads.

Bruisers use Defense, Assassins use Mobility, Mages use Range. And light-fighters use a combination of defense and mobility, marksman a mix of mobility and range.

Defense, Mobility, and Range are counter-weights to one another.

If someone is really tanky and you aren't, chances are you're more mobile and/or have better range than them though. Which is one major reason to simply resort to "kite them" as a simple, solid foundation to run with and use as a springboard for other tactical maneuvers.

With 100+ champions it's not like there's a lack of specific mechanics and plays to deal with tanky DPS either, but with 100+ champions: you're looking at a pretty basic solution if you're limiting your problem to an entire archetype.

Here's the thing: These guys aren't "bruisers", they're "juggernauts".

Their weakness is that they don't have too much in the way of catching people (speed boosts in some fashion, and for Darius a pull), but they're EXTREMELY tanky and do A LOT of damage on one target at a time. They run into someone, blow them on their ass, and run into the next one. Kiting them is the only plausible counter-play people offer, but these guys still have movement buffs (and in Darius's case, a small pull, making him the easiest to kite, but given his kit, he does by far the most damage). You can't kite someone that buffs their movement towards you unless you have a means of re-slowing them or re-speeding yourself up on a cd that's as generous as their buff, which isn't always the case on every champ. To boot, these guys move faster than a good deal of squishy back line champs, and you can't kite someone that moves faster than you naturally without some sort of distraction. So in a 5v5 scenario, your team either has to dump all their shit on the enemy juggernaut, leaving the enemy back line champs to throw all their shit on your team more intelligently and thus destroying your team, or you try to put all your shit on their back line, but that leaves the juggernaut to straight up screw over that one motherfucker he decided shouldn't be playing League today, and that makes the fight an instant 4v5.

The problem is that unless your team is straight up AHEAD and keeps the enemy juggernaut down and out over the course of the whole game, there's too much control of how team fights go given to the juggernauts.

67chromeSep 3, 20151 votes

Here's the thing: These guys aren't "bruisers", they're "juggernauts".

Juggernaut is exactly the same thing as a bruiser. It's tanky DPS, the Barbarian class, a Fighter/Tank.

To boot, these guys move faster than a good deal of squishy back line champs, and you can't kite someone that moves faster than you naturally without some sort of distraction. So in a 5v5 scenario, your team either has to dump all their shit on the enemy juggernaut, leaving the enemy back line champs to throw all their shit on your team more intelligently and thus destroying your team,

They're not faster if you slow them down. And slows are really easy to itemize for.

More importantly - the AoE bombardment in a typical team-fight will pretty much insure any melee that isn't Zed levels of mobility is going to be outright slower than a back-line champion.

Most Juggernauts are actually pretty terrible team-fighters. Where a typical fighter shines is in a 1v1 fight, in a 5v5 most are generally "eh" unless they have flawless timing and positioning.

Also - most fighters are amazing 1v1 champions. 5v5ing dramatically amplifies how useful range and CC are. 1v1 does not. Closing ~550 range in a 1v1 is a completely different scenario than doing so in a 5v5.

chipndip1Sep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Juggernaut is exactly the same thing as a bruiser. It's tanky DPS, the Barbarian class, a Fighter/Tank.

They're not faster if you slow them down. And slows are really easy to itemize for.

More importantly - the AoE bombardment in a typical team-fight will pretty much insure any melee that isn't Zed levels of mobility is going to be outright slower than a back-line champion.

Most Juggernauts are actually pretty terrible team-fighters. Where a typical fighter shines is in a 1v1 fight, in a 5v5 most are generally "eh" unless they have flawless timing and positioning.

Also - most fighters are amazing 1v1 champions. 5v5ing dramatically amplifies how useful range and CC are. 1v1 does not. Closing ~550 range in a 1v1 is a completely different scenario than doing so in a 5v5.

They aren't fighters, they're "juggernauts". The reason why the community is in distress right now is because Riot tried to half-ass a new class that takes the best aspects of tanks and assassins and throws them onto champs with little disregard of class balancing up until this point.
You can't kite someone with a speed buff unless you have an ability to negate this buff on a cd that is as generous or more generous than the speed buff you're escaping. Not everyone has a roll like Vayne's. If these guys are designed to blast through your front line (or even just to your front line) and just start deleting people one at a time, how can you stop these guys if they take no damage while dealing huge ass chunks of damage back?
Unlike fighters that suck in team fights, these guys are SO DAMN TANKY yet SO DAMN POWERFUL they can run in like a tank and delete someone like an assassin. Hell they can run in like a tank and delete your freaking tank if things are aligned just right. That's how they were designed. The best cc is death, and instantly removing someone from play is, in and of itself, very powerful. Assassins are usually squishy for this reason, but these guys are intentionally made to be tanky, yet powerful. There needs to be more counter-play to this mindset other than "kite them". These guys got the power of end-game Nasus without the extreme amounts of farming Nasus has to do to hit that power level. They also build stuff like Dead Man's and Swift Boots to gain even more speed. Seriously...like what does one even do to these guys unless they're straight up losing from the start?

TavishSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They aren't fighters, they're "juggernauts". The reason why the community is in distress right now is because Riot tried to half-ass a new class that takes the best aspects of tanks and assassins and throws them onto champs with little disregard of class balancing up until this point.

You can't kite someone with a speed buff unless you have an ability to negate this buff on a cd that is as generous or more generous than the speed buff you're escaping. Not everyone has a roll like Vayne's. If these guys are designed to blast through your front line (or even just to your front line) and just start deleting people one at a time, how can you stop these guys if they take no damage while dealing huge ass chunks of damage back?

Unlike fighters that suck in team fights, these guys are SO DAMN TANKY yet SO DAMN POWERFUL they can run in like a tank and delete someone like an assassin. Hell they can run in like a tank and delete your freaking tank if things are aligned just right. That's how they were designed. The best cc is death, and instantly removing someone from play is, in and of itself, very powerful. Assassins are usually squishy for this reason, but these guys are intentionally made to be tanky, yet powerful. There needs to be more counter-play to this mindset other than "kite them". These guys got the power of end-game Nasus without the extreme amounts of farming Nasus has to do to hit that power level. They also build stuff like Dead Man's and Swift Boots to gain even more speed. Seriously...like what does one even do to these guys unless they're straight up losing from the start?

Or randuins, so if they get within range of autos for like one second, you are going to stay in auto range.

Jungle Lux GodSep 3, 20152 votes

To be fair, high damage and high defenses are the only reason these champions would be even remotely viable to compensate for them having low mobility and low range.

Otherwise, {insert name of juggernaut here} wouldn't wouldn't really be able to do anything IF they reached their target. If I'm playing an immobile melee champion with no gapclosers against a ranged champion that can kite me for an extended period of time, I better be rewarded for getting into range of said ranged champion, and most juggernauts didn't have that kind of reward before.

Balance-wise, yes, they might be a bit overpowered, but by all means these juggernauts should have high damage and high defenses because they essentially don't have anything else.

ValyrianBladeSep 3, 20151 votes

I agree entirely.

I've vouched for a long time that the number of bans (6) is more than enough because champions are much more balanced than they have been in the past and there aren't any 'broken OP' champions or 'mandatory first pick or bans'.

I can't say that anymore.

Mordekaiser is the worst for this, with Garen right behind him. I honestly find to manage against Skarner but he's still overtuned.

I've NEVER in about 16 months of playing League seen a major update to 4 champions so rapidly followed by 90% of my games having all 4 of those champions banned (and the other 10% the banners are smart enough to realize Darius wasn't overtuned and just ban the other 3). At least Blue side is banning them too, it'd be horrid if Blue, knowing they get first pick, made Red ban all 3.

If the balance team keeps this stuff up, I'm going to have to hop the fence on that bans issue...

Kiting isn't even a solution for ANYONE. I mean, give them a Nautilus ally who can targeted ult-knock-up on you, and you're dead against these guys regardless of how well you can kite.

ButterBladesXSep 3, 20151 votes

play singed and gg Singed

RossizzleSep 3, 20151 votes

No idea why people complain about Garen.... He's literally got the same rotation to catch people before the changes.

chipndip1Sep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No idea why people complain about Garen.... He's literally got the same rotation to catch people before the changes.

Cause now he's still incredibly tanky, but has more damage than before. New juggernaut-specific items like these item 3742 item 3053 give crazy bonuses to these guys as well.

Silents429Sep 3, 20151 votes

You can say "kite them", but that "solution" is lazy. These guys have tools to reach targets in one fashion or another, and unless your team is straight up stomping the opposition, you can't escape these guys forever.

Oh my god this burns to read.

chipndip1Sep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh my god this burns to read.

Thanks for disregarding everything in this thread, let alone that quote, except those two sentences. I'm not gonna bother typing it again and again just because you can't read it.

Silents429Sep 3, 20151 votes

That you can't do basic gameplay mechanics, and consider it "lazy"

I did read the entire thing, this part just sticks out as your problem, if you can't kite you are going to have a bad time. They have the same weaknesses before, Garen especially since his weaknesses are easier to exploit.

HaIlMonitorSep 4, 20151 votes

If things like Kiting, Group vs 1 (Oh he is balanced bring 2 people to kill him the 3 of you should be able to do it.) , and chain CC are the answers to the problem then the champion should be looked at. Stutter stepping is much harder then what is required for garen to do to RUN at you, and if you mess up once he wins the duel. Oh yeah and let me stutter step all these guys as Rengar LOL

Silents429Sep 4, 20151 votes

You tried playing an assassin against Garen you deserve your fate.

HaIlMonitorSep 4, 20151 votes

Oh let me rephrase that then if you are a smart ass.

"Oh yeah and let me stutter step all these guys as any melee champion"