Because I'm not fond of that idea when all the gold is now being funneled into cannon minions. The gold changes really punish those who have waveclear problems, as well as anyone who falls behind.
And don't get started on "you shouldn't be missing CS", because even the pros miss by 1 HP sometimes. It's just that much more punishing now.
Krully34 votesgotta snowball dem lanes for quicker lcs game times
Khristophoros15 votesIt's really stupid because some champs are more affected by it than others.
Also it shifts too much focus to farming and wave timing to the point that it makes aggression less worthwhile.
Flawless Fetus5 votesMeh. Maybe. The flipside is it makes aggression more worthwhile. My enemy is trying to take that canon? Not on my watch. Lol.
Khristophoros1 votes[{quoted}](name=ßlended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GjwbPhMn,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-04-07T19:21:09.428+0000)
Meh. Maybe. The flipside is it makes aggression more worthwhile. My enemy is trying to take that canon? Not on my watch. Lol.
Sure if you have the means to punish them off it but I think in that case you probably had them zoned entirely off the minions anyway. So it's not really any different from before in terms of aggression imo.
What I have really noticed is, going for an aggressive play is less worthwhile because the risk of failure is now higher since missing a cannon is worse. Even if the current wave is not a cannon wave it likely causes you to miss out on the next wave even if you get a kill. If you end up low after a kill then it's super risky to stay in lane and get that cannon minion. Personally I have been staying to get it in that case but I'm insanely paranoid that I will get ganked for it. I really don't like it.
LordGeovanni1 votesIts not about instagibbing people off the cannon its about doing chunks when you know they cant fight back. do that several times over the lane and something will come out of it. You say that as if fighting the enemy for their cannon will mean you automatically miss your cannon. If thats the case you are super bad at reading and managing the wave, you can take your cannon earlier or leave it for later to allow the wave to push to you.
Khristophoros1 votesIts not about instagibbing people off the cannon its about doing chunks when you know they cant fight back. do that several times over the lane and something will come out of it. You say that as if fighting the enemy for their cannon will mean you automatically miss your cannon. if thats the case you super bad at reading and managing the wave you can take your cannon earlier or leave it for later to allow the wave to push to you.
I mean you have to be at such an advantage that you can kill your cannon first and then pressure them off theirs. If you can do that you pretty much have them zoned off the wave anyway.
My point is if you can contest the cannon confidently you might as well do that for every single minion.
LordGeovanni1 votesOther minions are worth as much as the cannon so you dont know if they will fight for it and not waste your Cool downs. And other things like Grasp and conqueror ramp up time.
Ratpie1 votesI think this is the real problem. If it was an equal impact, nobody would be caring, but it really does have a negative affect to certain champs over others.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku14 voteswhat Riot wants?
Ixoziel13 votesI hate the change as well. Killing caster minions just feels totally awful now.
5050BS13 votesWhat I hate is Mages that with the NEW Minions have to wait until its 2 pixels of HP before you auto attack else its gone.
That and the casters suddenly all want to focus ONE minion over and over. You cant time it and your attacks are SOOOO FREAKING SLOW its not possible.
hhaavviikk5 votesmaybe if the minion targeting wouldn't be random it wouldn't be as bad, allied minions all attacking minion Y, I need 2 auto attacks to kill minion B so I attack minion B once and all of a sudden all allied minions switch from attacking minion Y to minion B making me lose CS, seriously why does this happen
Geargrinder5 votesCan someone provide a link to the (canon)minion updates/changes? I've googled, but can't seem to find what OP is talking about.
Barcid8 voteshttps://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-87-notes
It's literally filed under minions in the patch notes.
Come on, man...
Cynikul4 votesI think they wanted to achieve more bullying for whenever a cannon is present, I just think they did it in the wrong way.
Reduce 3-wave canon increase from 3 to 1.25 (also reduce the HP increase a little -_-)
Change caster/melee scale 3-wave from 0 to .1 (originally .125). I think this achieves what they originally intended without cannons feeling THAT impactful.
TeCoolMage9 votesI disagree, the gold on it is fine, as well as the fact it's tanky and requires extended fighting
But it's purely the last hitting via autos that is problematic. It increases the gap between low and high ping, AD and AS.
I'd much prefer they solved it by changing something about cannon minion's last bit of health - like let them be executed by autos
Cynikul2 votesI disagree, the gold on it is fine, as well as the fact it's tanky and requires extended fighting
But it's purely the last hitting via autos that is problematic. It increases the gap between low and high ping, AD and AS.
I'd much prefer they solved it by changing something about cannon minion's last bit of health - like let them be executed by autos
The funny thing about doing a change like that, like if it executes @ <10% HP or something like that, you'll have people that will auto it expecting it to execute- it won't- and they'll miss it as some result of that interaction (maybe they got zoned off from it after the auto, or walked away from it, or maybe it dies from a turret shot while you're under tower and your attack speed isn't quite fast enough for the next auto).
Just like how some people complain about the relic shield procs missing (it actually used to be a big discussion too), but times that by 20 now. If you think about it, it kinda just perpetuates the same "issue"
"What, the auto missed the kill on cannon?!"
"What, the auto didnt execute the cannon?!"
And you get used to a different threshold. So IDK about that.
BigFBear1 votesIt's one thing to try to hit a HP-Window of 1% to make the Last-Hit and your own cannon-minion trys to "steal" it. It's another thing to hit a (let's say) 8%-HP-Window to make the last hit (execute) and only tower can "steal". Yes you can hit on 8,1% and the minion is left with 1 HP and get killed from other minion. But at least you have enough time to get the kill when it's between 0-8%.
I play Voli jungle and you don't build AD on Voli/Jungle. When I have to hold a lane for someone I get pure cancer because I can't manage all lasthits because of my lowdmg AA's + I can't even work with tower together, because of my Bami's Cinder AoE-Dmg.
I mean you can do it if you train it a lot but does it have to be that hard? Especially when there are 90% other champs who can lasthits WAY more easy. It's just frustrating. I mean the skill in this game should be decisionmaking and PvP not trying to perfectly hit a 1 nannometer HP-Window for 15 Minutes.
If they want more interaction and trades between Laners maybe it would help when you don't have to focus so hard on getting this fu**ing 10 HP-Lasthits.
TeCoolMage1 votesIt's not as simple as you're making it out to be:
All champions have approx 0.625 AS, and all minions and champions do a certain amount of damage to cannon minions. It's not the visual length of the HP bar, or how early you get to execute it, but how many attacks the champion gets to kill the cannon (from the start of the perceived threshold) and how close minion hits bring the cannon's HP to 0 or the actual threshold until then.
Otherwise if minions were executed at 50% health this problem would still exist (and it wouldn't, if the first auto brought cannon from 60% to 40% then there's no way the next auto would ever miss the cannon minion unless you deliberately choose not to attack it for 10 seconds.)
Don't know about relic shield complaints, either the complaining supports are trash, their ADCs are trash, or it's a completely different problem and can't be compared at all.
Death from turret shot with too low AS is the problem that this change is supposed to solve (seriously any amount of minion damage or a single auto from a champion will desync cannon minion HP from turret shots and there's no way you'll secure it unless your autos deal more than the turret shot itself). Don't walk away unless you're sure the cannon will die, being zoned from autoing is a good play on the enemy and does encourage you to not rely on execute all the time in higher elos, even better if you somehow trick the enemy into falsely going in thinking they're safe.
Trias0001 votesNo, because if you miss that 10% you'll leave the minion at, let's say, 5% health which should give you time to finish it off with a spell or maybe another auto. Obviously that would defy the purpose of this change, i.e. encouraging fights over cannon minions, but the enemy would still be able to harass you when you go to last hit the cannon. Even more so if you take more time by missing that 10% window - then you'd waste more time and thus take more harassment.
C9 Squeeky 4 votesIt should be a skill to be able to contest. It is not healthy to just farm the wave and have no interaction with your lane opponent. If there is no PvP interaction, you might as well not even have a lane opponent. Learning how to trade, stay healthy, have proper back timings and capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes when they greed for that cannon minion is a skill that should rightly be in the game.
darkdill4 votesI don't disagree with that.
My actual beef is with the whole "minion survived with 1 HP, so you get nothing" bullshit moments being made so much worse with these cannon minion changes. If you get one of those 1 HP misses, it'd be nice if you at least got half of the gold instead of none of it.
Terozu5 votesBut you still failed. Why reward you?
Trias0001 votesYeah, I remember when I first heard about DotA and similar games, I thought "how stupid is it that you have to precisely last hit to get any gold". For instance, no RPG games have that. Unless maybe MMOs, but I only played Tibia and there whoever did the most damage would get the loot from a monster. Playing LoL I obviously got used to it, but I might start hating it even more now.
Draehl3 votesYeah, seemed like the beef wasnt over it being contested by a fight, but rather champions with innately poor CS missing one just in happenstance. I'm only a support but I can attest to how tough it can be last hitting on certain champs under tower especially.
C9 Squeeky 1 votesSo blame it on the champion, not the player?
Slythrin Umbreon2 votesNo, what we're saying it this change makes me feel like I need to quit playing my favorite champions in favor of something that doesn't get shit on too harshly by Riot's "balancing" changes.
DOUBLE TAPPED E4 votesEverytime this happens, you get a little better at making sure it doesn't happen. That's the theory anyway.
Hell a bunch of streamers have a meme about missing cannons. SoloRenektonOnly regularly gets requests from his donators to "miss a cannon for me <3"
FrostQueensPlane4 votesI've quit playing Anivia because of the cs changes and I have a 75% winrate with her in diamond. It's so frustrating that it's just not worth it.
Wolfeur3 votesThe goal here (I'm not gonna discuss on whether it's good/bad or well/badly done) is to make the cannon minion a more important part of laning, and making then the reward for taking it better, but also the reward for preventing your opponent from taking it more important and satisfying.
AwesomeGuyDj2 votesIdr the exact change (cannons are harder to kill and give more gold iirc) but i feel like these will just making being behind worse. Oh your getting out cs'ed by a lane bully? Well good things its easier to zone you off of gold because the cannon is now worth a shitload, and harder to kill.
DOUBLE TAPPED E1 votesWhen you put it that way, this could be a way they are trying to address the complaint that it's harder to solo carry in season 8. If they give more tools to extend your lead like this, that could be a way to remedy the situation.
1011001110001 votesThis just compounds the "this guy sucks, so abuse the shit out of him" more than anything else.
NA Darklarik2 votes[deleted]
Bjørnetjenesten8 votesSuch a dumb and biased comment. Why do you attack the post instead of looking at what he is saying from his perpective. Statistically speaking, Its obvious this change is going to negatively impact alot of people missing cs and huge ammounts of gold in the long run. Especially weak laning champions like mages and lategame scalers.
I Like Things 5 votesYour bad, git gud.
Oh irony. So adorable.
@NA Darklarik you're bad, git gud.
I Q1 votes@I Like Things Oh**,** irony. So adorable.
Oh, irony. So adorable.
I Like Things 1 votesHe shoots, he misses.
Thegreatxiu2 votesI feel that the most frustrating thing about this change is that it discourages consistency. The first cannon minion is worth more than the three mage minions that follow it. It literally means that you're rewarded more for getting that one minion instead of consistently getting the other three. The other thing I dislike is that I play with Dark Harvest most of the time and it actually changes the flow of when you roam and whatnot, but with the new cannon minions is pulls everyone else into that same roaming pattern. This isn't necessarily a bad idea; I just don't like it.
Recuro2 votesHonestly I feel like csing should just be easier in general. Look I like the gameplay around trying to deny your opponents access to farm, but I really don't think competing with your own minions is all that engaging. It's just kind of a dumb way of raising the game's skillcap, and it especially sucks if you're playing anyone without ad.
I wish they would just make autos execute minions under ~10% hp or something like that. But really missing out on gold just because you didn't time your attack perfectly just sucks imo.
Twilit Angel2 votesAll I thought of when this change came out is that is a million times better now. [sg-lulu]
Cynikul1 votesI'm not really on one side or the other, but why is 51 gold in caster minions bad? thats 153 gold per 3 waves, no?
rtbf2216514122 votesI'm not really on one side or the other, but why is 51 gold in caster minions bad? thats 153 gold per 3 waves, no?
The problem is if you get zoned, you are screwed. And I always used zoning supports. I already zoned hard without the change. Now they have no way of retaliating. Don't get me wrong, I love the wins. However, I don't think this is fair, particularly for close range adcs.
cheerfothebeer1 votesBecause I'm not fond of that idea when all the gold is now being funneled into cannon minions. The gold changes really punish those who have waveclear problems, as well as anyone who falls behind.
Yeah, I don't like this change either. Adding money to the cannon minion feels dirty since they only come every 3 waves which means you need to make sure you are in lane to get it. Not to mention some mages have bad wave clear and I feel i punishes them the most.
The Yetii Rider1 votesActually, it is. They do want laning to be more of a test, and they want players to feel like pressuring someone off a cannon minion has a big impact. It's like a mini trade and there is now a real benefit for winning that trade.
Sohleks1 votesAlso I'm not convinced funneling gold away from 12 minions to one single dang cannon makes the game more aggressive. Especially when cannons have the tendency to survive gradual pushes. I wouldn't be shocked if the result ends up being the opposite. " Oh I'm losing. Haha glad smaller creeps matter less lol"
LordGeovanni1 votesI miss minions by 1 hp all the time as a fighter. I Just wonder why its a thing for mages only. Either you do enough damage or you recalculate when you do your damage to get a better result simple. You dont see fighters crying for extra damage because things die 1 hp off only mages are doing this for some reason. Same for supports who try to farm the lane when adcs back on a super fat wave and you know better than to do that especially when your support heals
Kung Gimli1 votesI like the idea, it's meant to enhance laning phase and fight over cannon minions instead of jerking off. I like Riot moving to a early game based game.
