[5.2] Live Gameplay Patch Forecast

RiotJag··92 votes·198,049 views

Hey guys, Jag here from the Live Balance team. It's a new year, a new(ish) season, and we're back with the Patch 5.2 Forecast!

The biggest change we're making in 5.2 is that we're removing Deathfire Grasp from Summoner's Rift. There are two major reasons we felt we had to do this, so I'll run through both:

First, DFG tends to make burst patterns even more bursty. The item effectively adds another nuke spell on top of kits that are already designed to have strong up-front damage and aggravates the "whoa, I got one shot out of nowhere" frustration of playing against certain champions. A good example is LeBlanc; DFG adds reliability to her assassination patterns and ends up removing counterplay (she gets to rely on her Q, E, and DFG spells for damage, and can use dashes to reposition or escape instead of making more risky plays).

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG. The most obvious example is Ahri; more 'magey' elements of the character, like her sustained damage or kiting, end up getting washed out because she has so much power to blow up charmed targets with a DFG burst. This ends up forcing us to balance Ahri around her assassin playstyle because there's always the "I can buy DFG" route to consider; removing the item means we can buff her in more interesting ways while still keeping some of her burst because she can't just pick up a DFG and double down on a single playstyle.

As far as champions that purchase DFG are concerned, some will get some love now that DFG is gone (I mentioned Ahri; expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next); some are strong enough that losing DFG is a healthy nerf; some rely on alternate item builds sufficiently that they won't be affected too much. When 5.2 goes live, if we feel there is an itemization gap for mages, then we'll address that further.

One of the other character classes we're looking at in 5.2 in Assassins. Some assassins have top tier burst potential that is loaded onto high reliability spells (think Akali or Fizz here) and don't have enough real weaknesses to compensate. Others may simply be too strong along a variety of dimensions; Zed being one of the best 1v1 champions in the game and an extremely efficient tower diver helps make him a super split pusher. However, him having such strong tower killing statistics (e.g. AS, bonus AD from W passive) on top of that makes for an overwhelming combination.

Last point regarding jungle; we have seen the jungle receive a huge amount of changes since the start of the preseason, and Patch 5.1 was no exception with the addition of the Smite charging system. We want to keep a close eye on what happens when 5.1 hits live servers and we will continue to make changes to jungle as appropriate.

740 Comments

MrBuffington86 votes

RIP DFGaren :/

Young Tyrone70 votes

{quoted}

RIP DFGaren :/

;_;

You all are invited to my funeral if you want. There will be much cake.

Jeddy01720 votes

DFGaren may be leaving us,but the light of Demacia will never fade.DFGaren earned his rest. Garen

RavenHusky3 votes

Someone mention Lux?

But seriously, I take DFG on Lux both for the CDR, and AP, as the AP from dfg more than makes up for the ap lost by taking a couple CDR runes, and masteries.

Heal and Forget37 votes

DFG on Lux is just as questionable as Lich Bane. The usefulness is there, but those two items just completely disrespect Lux's huge range potential. She should never be close enough to be able to DFG anyway.

Stephenizgod45 votes

What are the plans for Mordekasier? DFG+Ult is how he could stay a threat late game, otherwise he just gets destroyed. I mean he needed some love before this because even with lack of mobility he is out damaged by a lot of mobile bursty mages, now without DFG his almost worthless ult damage will be so non-existent you can just ignore him.

RiotJag23 votes

Mordekaiser is a guy we're still looking at. He's an interesting problem because admittedly it seems like DFG is core to his late game team fight objectives, but on the other hand it's really hard to play up some of his basic play patterns (especially in lane) without aggravating the "this guy is miserable to play against" experience.

Stephenizgod16 votes

I agree that its not fun for my lane opponents when i hit E and they take 1/5th of their health instantly with no counterplay, but that pushes the lane and then you get camped, since he has no mobility or CC. So honestly his kit is toxic for both him and his opponent, but he is so much fun to play that i accept the good and the bad parts of his lacking but toxic kit. So i would be really sad to see DFG, a late game core item for him, go away without him seeing any sort of compensation buff. Giving him damage as compensation would not work so well and throwing random CC and mobility might backfire but possible buffs to his W and R could solve a lot of his problems.

His early game is only hell for the opponent if their jungler does nothing about you curbstomping your opponent. Any sort of interference from outside the lane basically destroys Morde for the rest of the game. I can think of way more toxic kits where laning phase is beyond miserable to the point where i want to just quit playing (Like Zed or Fizz). So personally i think buffs to his W (something you dont max early game anyways) resistance buffs and maybe movement speed steroid on it? And he deals bonus damage to enemies effected by his R?

I dont think either of these will effect his early game damage too much and it would also make him more effective in teamfights where you can speed up an ally and give them some extra resistance as well as lay down some damage. The R needs something because with his lack of mobility and CC its really hard to secure a kill with it unless they stay and fight you or you have DFG and Ignite. Idk how many times i put it on a champ who had less then 200 hp and they survive simply because they are slightly faster then me.

Sorry for the long response you are just the first Red who has talked to me about Mordekasier XD

RiotJag25 votes

I think you hit a lot of the problem on the head. Nice post hue hue.

Those are some interesting suggestions that give him some unselfish value and is unrelated to him just exploding a carry. We'll keep them in mind.

Yoella39 votes

D... Did Riot just say they're considering nerfing Akali, Fizz, and Zed all at the same time?

item 3128 DFG, your sacrifice was not in vain. God bless!

Arzete23 votes

Hurray! I don't know about everyone else but: No more buying DFG just to keep forgetting to use it!

YiffMyHoleDaddy20 votes

What about Katarina? You guys nerfed her a few patches ago by nerfing her ult's base damage at rank 1 and 2, and nerfing its cooldown, which caused more of us to lean towards DFG to get our damage back up and our ult to a bit of a better cooldown. It also greatly amplified Kat's playstyle of catching someone when they aren't looking and causing an advantage in a teamfight. Is she going to receive compensation, or is she one of the champions who is "good enough without DFG?" Since Katarina is basically a CC magnet, DFG was one of her best ways of ensuring she could get a kill before getting stunned to oblivion, and at least helped her get one reset. Without it, she'll lose the CDR to help her when she doesn't get resets and a massive chunk of her burst/reset potential will be taken away.

Skia Asteri19 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-14T01:00:50.369+0000)

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG.

So will you be looking into the possibility of reverting the nerfs to Evelynn that were intended to make it a bad item for her? If item 3128 does not exist, there is no reason to have her E do physical damage to make it harder to 100-0 people out of stealth.

Starlighte15 votes

When you fix how much better AD assassins are across the board, then DFG being removed may be a good idea. As it stands now, without seeing what is being done to the likes of Zed, this sounds like an awful idea on paper.

I am prepared for hate for voicing my opinion that DFG is a necessary evil, just like Zhonya's. Anyone who was around for the League of Bruisers knows very well how awful of a game it is when everyone and their grandmother (Or just ADCs) buys Warmogs and makes mages obsolete. (Beginning of S3 ring a bell Riot?)

RiotJag27 votes

The interesting issue with DFG is that despite being a nuke scaling off of percentage health and therefore in theory being a tank shredder, it ends up being arguably more potent on squishies since it reduces the threshold required to one shot a carry's low health pool by 20%.

Your point suggests to me that maybe there's an itemization hole for mages that want to deal with health stacking (that Liandry's is not currently serving). I think that's a good issue for us to keep an eye on.

Starlighte6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-01-14T02:02:45.937+0000)

The interesting issue with DFG is that despite being a nuke scaling off of percentage health and therefore in theory being a tank shredder, it ends up being arguably more potent on squishies since it reduces the threshold required to one shot a carry's low health pool by 20%.

I don't think anyone would deny the fact that it is super effective against squishies and maybe less so against tanks. The problem is that DFG was reworked to create a pseudo-"expose weakness" that allows other mages to also deal amp'd damage. With DFG taken out, Mages across the board are going to be getting a soft nerf, even if they don't directly use DFG. But those mages who do, Ahri, Annie, LB, Lissandra etc. etc. compensation may not be enough.

Your point suggests to me that maybe there's an itemization hole for mages that want to deal with health stacking (that Liandry's is not currently serving). I think that's a good issue for us to keep an eye on.

And there is an itemization hole, especially for mages who do not have access to DoT or AoE abilities, as proccing Liandry's is not only ineffecient but it just feels bad. Liandry's does next to no damage after resistances, and with DFG out Warmogs is going to be making a comeback and it won't be pretty.

Honestly, I am concerned that you guys aren't really acknowledging how big of an impact on the game this will have, and the meta after DFG's removal is going to be horribly skewed, and skewed in a way that is not easily fixed by number tweaks.

But beyond that, now AP itemization sucks even moreso. While AD champions have scaling on their AA's, AP champs are losing a 120AP item that has burst/damage functionality. It needs to be replaced by something, because otherwise Mage itemization is going to be superbly inefficient again.

Beats293 votes

1 question, while I completly agree with the removal of DFG (I've always supported it since the end of S3 along with LB nerfs), will Riot make more items with actives to the game? Personally I believe more items to encourage item diversification on mid-lane (another thing that DFG didn't allow on champions) are needed, specially active ones.

RiotFeralPony8 votes

So I can comment on this a bit. We're looking at some longer term changes to the itemization system this will probably result in some additional active items though I wouldn't expect anything in 5.2. A lot of the work on the Active Item UI (making active items more prominently displayed on your cast bar) had the goal of allowing us the ability to make more active items. Any additional actives we add would most likely be targeted at classes or roles that currently have a lack of activated items (ie- probably not supports as they can often be overloaded with actives though we had some ideas there as well)

There are also a few active items we had experimented with during Preseason that we liked (like ZzRot Portal) but were delayed due to scope which we might be able to get ship ready sooner.

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

probably not supports as they can often be overloaded with actives though we had some ideas there as well

What do you mean overloaded? I only have 5. What we need are actives on boots. My poor "1" key is soo lonely being the only one never used. XD

Aesheron9 votes

I don't know if this is your area or not, but figured I'd mention it because you kind of brought it up. I like the new UI, but I really wish there was an option to customizes what goes where. There are things I like being right above my cast bar, especially stacks that quickly decay like WW's passive etc. Even if I can't pick and choose what goes where, the ability to switch the two zones, or revert to the old system would be really nice.

Hexten15 votes

Some assassins have top tier burst potential that is loaded onto high reliability spells (think Akali or Fizz here) and don't have enough real weaknesses to compensate.

At this point, it is obvious that these two champions won't have a rework that will be released by 5.2, meaning the only real option here is to straight-up nerf their numbers since their burst are on high reliability spells.

Tell me that I am wrong, and what plans you have to make Akali and Fizz pay for reliable burst other than just straight-up nerfing their numbers.

What specific nerfs will Akali and Fizz be getting?

On another note, since DFG is getting removed, what about Gunblade's current state? What is said about DFG can be exactly said for Gunblade on Akali. She is forced to rely on this item, and is balanced around Gunblade as well. It also has a point-and-click damage active that slows, which further adds to Akali's high reliability burst.

Since Akali is getting looked in this patch, would it make sense to tweak Gunblade as well?

PS: Will Blackfire Torch get removed as well on Dominion? It's basically the same item as DFG.

An update: Possibility of Akali's ult range being nerfed. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zXf6FiAF-meddler-one-of-these-days-youll-come-to-my-thread-my-kingdom-my-sanctuary?comment=00000002

junglerboy168 votes

Maybe they'll remove her invisibility and remove his invulnerability? Just sayin' that would remove a TON of their reliability imo...

Alexsdaman15 votes

That's like removing blitz's grab. Or Sona's Etwahl. Or Zac's goo. Or Grave's cigar.

Siriner7 votes

Yes I would like to know, I'm been an Akali main since S1 and currently plat, What Gunblade does at the moment for Akali is like DFG for the other mages , I find it really odd that its not getting deleted as well.

Backl4sh114 votes

ITS THE DOUBLE ZHONYAS METTA NOW! TANKY MAGES TONS OF AP WOOO #HYPE

neTø14 votes

In all seriousness, for people like me who REALLY enjoy off meta things like AP sejuani, AP Maokai, and AP Malphite, will there be any sort of compensation or replacement item to keep their viability or is this just a big middle finger to anybody that likes thinking outside the box with their mages?

5G8Nri0B5413 votes

So nothing on Cassiopeia even though Stashu said he would continue fixing her up even after 4.21?

Anyways

[5.2]

Wait...

So does that mean 4.21=5.1? Because I haven't seen any mention of patch 5.1 anywhere in the website yet, and now you're talking about 5.2

There is one glimmer of good news here though. I'm glad DFG is removed for exactly the second reason you stated. Although the fact that you guys tend to miss champions when it comes to compensation does worry me.

You guys screwed over mana champion's itemizations...and no one is more focked than Anivia and Swain is. Moreso Anivia because she doesn't have a Passive that helps her lane unlike Swain. But they're both hit harder than all others.

Saevum3 votes

So nothing on Cassiopeia even though Stashu said he would continue fixing her up even after 4.21?

I want to believe that:

fixing her up even after 4.21?

after 4.21

after

Hello Cassy 5.2?

5G8Nri0B5413 votes

And by fix, I don't mean

"let's pump more numbers into her! HEE-YAW!"

RiotJag11 votes

5.1 should be hitting NA servers this week.

Cassio is an interesting topic that I'd like to dive deeper on later. But to start I'd ask what you perceive she needs fixed, as she is trending quite strong since 4.21 (she's popping up as a real force top lane).

LeeDark15 votes

Yeah... because another AP top laner is exactly what was needed. She's a force there because she still bullies melee, and being a lane bully is core to her identity. In mid, she's gone because she can't do that anymore. Her passive is a giant ball of stats that makes her ridiculous late, but there is NOTHING INTERESTING AT ALL about it.

She needs to be an interesting poison mage, not Top Lane Ryze 2.0.

5G8Nri0B5431 votes

Short Answer - She's too brutish with the rework and it undermines what a Poison Mage should be.

Long Answer:

Stashu himself knows the most about this as he's had most interaction with Cass players. But since the rework the fanbase has been bitterly divided between those who had fun playing the gas spewing poison mage and those who solely played her to E-spam like an AK-47. Pre-rework her poisons her and her E was strong. Now her Poison are just E-enablers and her E is the entirety of Cassiopeia. This has the unfortunate result of turning her from Poison Mage to...Magical Girl Rambo

Spikes like current Cassiopeia and have been picking her up, and that comprises a lot of LoL's community. But those who liked her as a Poison Mage aren't happy.

Both sides can be appealed to at the same time imo. All you need to do to make Spikes happy is just make her OP, or enough numbers to make any champion strong. Whether she is AP Rambo looking for a fight or a Poison Mage where being engaged upon is a bad thing, if she has the numbers, Spikes will like her just as much as they like the current most likely OP Cass.

as she is trending quite strong since 4.21 (she's popping up as a real force top lane).

That's a bad thing.

I'm actually afraid of the fact that she is becoming so strong and all that because it only serves to make her popular with outsiders who only want to play powerful champions with big numbers that lets them win more games. Any champion can have this same effect if they have enough numbers pumped into them.

The rework sacrificed IDENTITY to make a different champion, and to make people happy, lots of numbers were shoved in. If my prediction is correct, she'll go the way of Twitch.

A lot of Twitch players were sad how he lost his identity. While it wasn't unreasonable to cut his stealth so hard, it was what set him apart. Nobody denied how strong he can be at the time. But the complaints were levelled by how he's no longer the sneaky rat bastard that they loved. Then one day pros started playing him in tournaments and such to show how OP he was.

Now? It's impossible to discuss Twitch without people accusing you of just "asking for your freelo main to be buffed". His Passive is pointlessly unsatisfying, his stealth is unsatisfying, and all he's achieved is cold balance. Spikes may still love him, but they'll love a blue rectangle firing red squares as long as it has enough numbers. Spikes will say Twitch is fine and just git gud.

I am afraid this will be Cassiopeia's fate. Those who liked her for what she is will be cast off in favour of Spikes rather than appeal to all players. You could have appealed to Spikes simply by making her a Poison Mage and then jacking up her numbers like you did with 4.21

edit: Let's put this another way. The game has ONE Poison Mage that spews gas that devastates the enemy team with AoE DoT. And you turned her into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

ZerglingOne12 votes

They MUST replace it with something because currently it's one of the only CDR items worth buying on manaless AP characters.

Ahri Body Pillow11 votes

ITS HAPPENING

NO MORE SYNDRA OUTPLAYS

redniwediS29 votes

A well played Syndra never needed DFG. DFG just made it easier.

Pika31011 votes

Removing DFG? Changes to a large number of assassins? You all know what this means: more Sona nerfs incoming. I wonder what they'll attack next, probably her AD, both base and per-level as well as her auto-range. Riot's hatred of Sona is endless.

#BetterNerfSona

UnboundChaos9 votes

So I'd like to talk about Ahri here for a minute. You were talking about how Ahri had more of her magey elements ignored, however that is something that the Riot balancing team caused with the end of Season 3 assassin nerfs. So the only way to bring Ahri's more magelike pattern back would be to rebuff some of her kit, however that would just cause her to continue to be played as an assassin. Add this in with the fact that she brings high mobility it is hard to ignore her as an assassin, but DFG is also a necessary item for the assassin pathway on her. If you take out DFG and focus Ahri to a more mage-like build, you will simply be doing the opposite of what season 3 did, which was center her around her assassination. She is too mobile to not be used as an assassin, as my base idea of a mage would be Orianna, whereas Ahri seems more similar to Leblanc in both build and playstyle. So you will either be forcing her into a mage pathway or you will make her completely unplayable from what I'm seeing. And I myself love assassin Ahri, she has been my main since I started in mid season 3 and I would hate to see the only champ I like forced into a role I don't see her as.

asktiks8 votes

expect X champ to get compensation on this patch or the next

ive heard that before...not liking this ap hate at all, why is AD itemization barely getting touched when armor is so ridiculously outscaled now?

if its about counterplay , you should remove LW from the game too

bah , ill join the bandwagon of assasins and bite the bullet I guess, no point in playing anything that uses mana or ap these days since god forbid a mage has to use ITS ENTIRE KIT PLUS AN ITEM to actually kill someone , we don't want those yasuos and fizzs and zeds to somehow get killed with no counterplay right?

cuz that would TOOOOTALLY be unfair right?

ill be remembering that the next time one of said champs is turret diving me at will and deleting me with just ONE abilty and no items right under my turret...totally balanced counterplay right?

pshhh

also , IF we see an itemization gap for mages after 5.2 well look into it : IE were gonna have to deal with it for MONTHS until they decide what to do to fix it

/rant off

CreationFlaw7 votes

"expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next" Good. You just removed his #1 bought item, so he better be getting some complimentary buffs because of this. Perhaps 7.1 scaling on his Q so I can one hit people while still farming my Q C:?

Brandakeran7 votes

This calls for......AD Katarina!

TheLordPuddinCup7 votes

Isn't this a nerf to AP as a whole as now their won't be as many AP/slot items? 2x 120ap instead of 3x 120ap?

GigglingAngel7 votes

Yes, let's nerf mages even more, then talk about buffing one (maybe two) of the mage champs afterwards out of the 20+! Sounds GRAND!

Seriously, I'm tired of the mage item nerfs (or in this case, just plain removal). Every time I read that mages get this passive-aggressive nerf, I play less and less.

Tortemo1237 votes

I wish that I had more emotion, but to me it's just one of the items whose Active I forgot to use. XD

Arctic Wolf6 votes

Can you take a look at the Mana cost on Veigar's ult as well? at 125/175/225 it's a bit outdated; Viktor had his changed from this to 100 at all ranks like the more standard ult costs over a year ago. If Veigar isn't able to 1-shot a full-tank Mundo anymore, there's no reason to keep his ult mana cost that high.

Diostukos5 votes

Garen buffs incoming.

On a more serious note, will Leblanc be seeing buffs? I've noticed a lot of Leblanc players build Deathfire Grasp, but with the last change to Athenes and Morello, they take it later on. A similar situation occurs with Syndra.

What about Annie?

RiotJag26 votes

Our opinion is that Leblanc and Syndra are not hurt too hard by DFG's removal (or at least not so badly that they'd need compensation).

Annie is another story. We're working through some changes that can make her still feel good about bursting people without so heavily relying on "drop Tibbers, cast spells, enemy explodes" pattern.

Sharkb84 votes

This is kind of typical:

"As far as champions that purchase DFG are concerned, some will get some love now that DFG is gone (I mentioned Ahri; expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next)"

So we're gonna give these champs a huge nerf, and then not worry about them until a patch or two later....just keep dying to Zed in lane-you'll get over it.

Pika3103 votes

So we're gonna give these champs a huge nerf, and then not worry about them until a patch or two later....just keep dying to Zed in lane-you'll get over it.

In the case of Ahri specifically, they're giving her additional nerfs on top of removing DFG. Probably because she was capable of outplaying Zed and nobody's allowed to beat Riot's precious Zed.

Ale non è male1 votes

Anyway, DFG problem was just that it had the highest AP on a single item, behind only Rabadon, it had the highest damage amplification in the game + CDR to cast damage spells more often too. Something needed to go I'd like to see a new item with the Doom passive substituting DFG(obviously lowering the initial damage to something like 10% target max health at best) and with lower/different stats

Pika3103 votes

item 3157

There are 3 items with 120 AP. Just saying.

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