[5.2] Live Gameplay Patch Forecast

RiotJag·1/14/2015, 1:00:50 AM·92 votes·198,049 views

Hey guys, Jag here from the Live Balance team. It's a new year, a new(ish) season, and we're back with the Patch 5.2 Forecast!

The biggest change we're making in 5.2 is that we're removing Deathfire Grasp from Summoner's Rift. There are two major reasons we felt we had to do this, so I'll run through both:

First, DFG tends to make burst patterns even more bursty. The item effectively adds another nuke spell on top of kits that are already designed to have strong up-front damage and aggravates the "whoa, I got one shot out of nowhere" frustration of playing against certain champions. A good example is LeBlanc; DFG adds reliability to her assassination patterns and ends up removing counterplay (she gets to rely on her Q, E, and DFG spells for damage, and can use dashes to reposition or escape instead of making more risky plays).

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG. The most obvious example is Ahri; more 'magey' elements of the character, like her sustained damage or kiting, end up getting washed out because she has so much power to blow up charmed targets with a DFG burst. This ends up forcing us to balance Ahri around her assassin playstyle because there's always the "I can buy DFG" route to consider; removing the item means we can buff her in more interesting ways while still keeping some of her burst because she can't just pick up a DFG and double down on a single playstyle.

As far as champions that purchase DFG are concerned, some will get some love now that DFG is gone (I mentioned Ahri; expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next); some are strong enough that losing DFG is a healthy nerf; some rely on alternate item builds sufficiently that they won't be affected too much. When 5.2 goes live, if we feel there is an itemization gap for mages, then we'll address that further.

One of the other character classes we're looking at in 5.2 in Assassins. Some assassins have top tier burst potential that is loaded onto high reliability spells (think Akali or Fizz here) and don't have enough real weaknesses to compensate. Others may simply be too strong along a variety of dimensions; Zed being one of the best 1v1 champions in the game and an extremely efficient tower diver helps make him a super split pusher. However, him having such strong tower killing statistics (e.g. AS, bonus AD from W passive) on top of that makes for an overwhelming combination.

Last point regarding jungle; we have seen the jungle receive a huge amount of changes since the start of the preseason, and Patch 5.1 was no exception with the addition of the Smite charging system. We want to keep a close eye on what happens when 5.1 hits live servers and we will continue to make changes to jungle as appropriate.

740 Comments

MrBuffington1/14/2015, 1:06:53 AM86 votes

RIP DFGaren :/

Stephenizgod1/14/2015, 1:06:42 AM45 votes

What are the plans for Mordekasier? DFG+Ult is how he could stay a threat late game, otherwise he just gets destroyed. I mean he needed some love before this because even with lack of mobility he is out damaged by a lot of mobile bursty mages, now without DFG his almost worthless ult damage will be so non-existent you can just ignore him.

Yoella1/14/2015, 7:54:44 AM39 votes

D... Did Riot just say they're considering nerfing Akali, Fizz, and Zed all at the same time?

item 3128 DFG, your sacrifice was not in vain. God bless!

Arzete1/14/2015, 1:29:37 AM23 votes

Hurray! I don't know about everyone else but: No more buying DFG just to keep forgetting to use it!

YiffMyHoleDaddy1/14/2015, 2:56:24 AM20 votes

What about Katarina? You guys nerfed her a few patches ago by nerfing her ult's base damage at rank 1 and 2, and nerfing its cooldown, which caused more of us to lean towards DFG to get our damage back up and our ult to a bit of a better cooldown. It also greatly amplified Kat's playstyle of catching someone when they aren't looking and causing an advantage in a teamfight. Is she going to receive compensation, or is she one of the champions who is "good enough without DFG?" Since Katarina is basically a CC magnet, DFG was one of her best ways of ensuring she could get a kill before getting stunned to oblivion, and at least helped her get one reset. Without it, she'll lose the CDR to help her when she doesn't get resets and a massive chunk of her burst/reset potential will be taken away.

Skia Asteri1/14/2015, 1:51:04 AM19 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-14T01:00:50.369+0000)

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG.

So will you be looking into the possibility of reverting the nerfs to Evelynn that were intended to make it a bad item for her? If item 3128 does not exist, there is no reason to have her E do physical damage to make it harder to 100-0 people out of stealth.

Starlighte1/14/2015, 1:12:21 AM15 votes

When you fix how much better AD assassins are across the board, then DFG being removed may be a good idea. As it stands now, without seeing what is being done to the likes of Zed, this sounds like an awful idea on paper.

I am prepared for hate for voicing my opinion that DFG is a necessary evil, just like Zhonya's. Anyone who was around for the League of Bruisers knows very well how awful of a game it is when everyone and their grandmother (Or just ADCs) buys Warmogs and makes mages obsolete. (Beginning of S3 ring a bell Riot?)

Hexten1/14/2015, 3:34:51 AM15 votes

Some assassins have top tier burst potential that is loaded onto high reliability spells (think Akali or Fizz here) and don't have enough real weaknesses to compensate.

At this point, it is obvious that these two champions won't have a rework that will be released by 5.2, meaning the only real option here is to straight-up nerf their numbers since their burst are on high reliability spells.

Tell me that I am wrong, and what plans you have to make Akali and Fizz pay for reliable burst other than just straight-up nerfing their numbers.

What specific nerfs will Akali and Fizz be getting?

On another note, since DFG is getting removed, what about Gunblade's current state? What is said about DFG can be exactly said for Gunblade on Akali. She is forced to rely on this item, and is balanced around Gunblade as well. It also has a point-and-click damage active that slows, which further adds to Akali's high reliability burst.

Since Akali is getting looked in this patch, would it make sense to tweak Gunblade as well?

PS: Will Blackfire Torch get removed as well on Dominion? It's basically the same item as DFG.

An update: Possibility of Akali's ult range being nerfed. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zXf6FiAF-meddler-one-of-these-days-youll-come-to-my-thread-my-kingdom-my-sanctuary?comment=00000002

neTø1/14/2015, 5:15:46 AM14 votes

In all seriousness, for people like me who REALLY enjoy off meta things like AP sejuani, AP Maokai, and AP Malphite, will there be any sort of compensation or replacement item to keep their viability or is this just a big middle finger to anybody that likes thinking outside the box with their mages?

Backl4sh11/14/2015, 1:12:25 AM14 votes

ITS THE DOUBLE ZHONYAS METTA NOW! TANKY MAGES TONS OF AP WOOO #HYPE

5G8Nri0B541/14/2015, 1:15:18 AM13 votes

So nothing on Cassiopeia even though Stashu said he would continue fixing her up even after 4.21?

Anyways

[5.2]

Wait...

So does that mean 4.21=5.1? Because I haven't seen any mention of patch 5.1 anywhere in the website yet, and now you're talking about 5.2

There is one glimmer of good news here though. I'm glad DFG is removed for exactly the second reason you stated. Although the fact that you guys tend to miss champions when it comes to compensation does worry me.

You guys screwed over mana champion's itemizations...and no one is more focked than Anivia and Swain is. Moreso Anivia because she doesn't have a Passive that helps her lane unlike Swain. But they're both hit harder than all others.

ZerglingOne1/14/2015, 6:50:12 AM12 votes

They MUST replace it with something because currently it's one of the only CDR items worth buying on manaless AP characters.

Pika3101/14/2015, 2:32:36 AM11 votes

Removing DFG? Changes to a large number of assassins? You all know what this means: more Sona nerfs incoming. I wonder what they'll attack next, probably her AD, both base and per-level as well as her auto-range. Riot's hatred of Sona is endless.

#BetterNerfSona

Ahri Body Pillow1/14/2015, 1:02:23 AM11 votes

ITS HAPPENING

NO MORE SYNDRA OUTPLAYS

UnboundChaos1/14/2015, 4:51:59 AM9 votes

So I'd like to talk about Ahri here for a minute. You were talking about how Ahri had more of her magey elements ignored, however that is something that the Riot balancing team caused with the end of Season 3 assassin nerfs. So the only way to bring Ahri's more magelike pattern back would be to rebuff some of her kit, however that would just cause her to continue to be played as an assassin. Add this in with the fact that she brings high mobility it is hard to ignore her as an assassin, but DFG is also a necessary item for the assassin pathway on her. If you take out DFG and focus Ahri to a more mage-like build, you will simply be doing the opposite of what season 3 did, which was center her around her assassination. She is too mobile to not be used as an assassin, as my base idea of a mage would be Orianna, whereas Ahri seems more similar to Leblanc in both build and playstyle. So you will either be forcing her into a mage pathway or you will make her completely unplayable from what I'm seeing. And I myself love assassin Ahri, she has been my main since I started in mid season 3 and I would hate to see the only champ I like forced into a role I don't see her as.

asktiks1/14/2015, 9:22:47 PM8 votes

expect X champ to get compensation on this patch or the next

ive heard that before...not liking this ap hate at all, why is AD itemization barely getting touched when armor is so ridiculously outscaled now?

if its about counterplay , you should remove LW from the game too

bah , ill join the bandwagon of assasins and bite the bullet I guess, no point in playing anything that uses mana or ap these days since god forbid a mage has to use ITS ENTIRE KIT PLUS AN ITEM to actually kill someone , we don't want those yasuos and fizzs and zeds to somehow get killed with no counterplay right?

cuz that would TOOOOTALLY be unfair right?

ill be remembering that the next time one of said champs is turret diving me at will and deleting me with just ONE abilty and no items right under my turret...totally balanced counterplay right?

pshhh

also , IF we see an itemization gap for mages after 5.2 well look into it : IE were gonna have to deal with it for MONTHS until they decide what to do to fix it

/rant off

Brandakeran1/14/2015, 3:21:18 AM7 votes

This calls for......AD Katarina!

CreationFlaw1/14/2015, 1:26:53 AM7 votes

"expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next" Good. You just removed his #1 bought item, so he better be getting some complimentary buffs because of this. Perhaps 7.1 scaling on his Q so I can one hit people while still farming my Q C:?

TheLordPuddinCup1/14/2015, 3:22:22 AM7 votes

Isn't this a nerf to AP as a whole as now their won't be as many AP/slot items? 2x 120ap instead of 3x 120ap?

GigglingAngel1/15/2015, 1:29:32 AM7 votes

Yes, let's nerf mages even more, then talk about buffing one (maybe two) of the mage champs afterwards out of the 20+! Sounds GRAND!

Seriously, I'm tired of the mage item nerfs (or in this case, just plain removal). Every time I read that mages get this passive-aggressive nerf, I play less and less.

Tortemo1231/16/2015, 12:01:35 AM7 votes

I wish that I had more emotion, but to me it's just one of the items whose Active I forgot to use. XD

Arctic Wolf1/14/2015, 3:51:56 AM6 votes

Can you take a look at the Mana cost on Veigar's ult as well? at 125/175/225 it's a bit outdated; Viktor had his changed from this to 100 at all ranks like the more standard ult costs over a year ago. If Veigar isn't able to 1-shot a full-tank Mundo anymore, there's no reason to keep his ult mana cost that high.

Diostukos1/14/2015, 1:10:14 AM5 votes

Garen buffs incoming.

On a more serious note, will Leblanc be seeing buffs? I've noticed a lot of Leblanc players build Deathfire Grasp, but with the last change to Athenes and Morello, they take it later on. A similar situation occurs with Syndra.

What about Annie?

Sharkb81/20/2015, 4:25:24 AM4 votes

This is kind of typical:

"As far as champions that purchase DFG are concerned, some will get some love now that DFG is gone (I mentioned Ahri; expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next)"

So we're gonna give these champs a huge nerf, and then not worry about them until a patch or two later....just keep dying to Zed in lane-you'll get over it.

Ale non è male1/15/2015, 11:00:23 AM1 votes

Anyway, DFG problem was just that it had the highest AP on a single item, behind only Rabadon, it had the highest damage amplification in the game + CDR to cast damage spells more often too. Something needed to go I'd like to see a new item with the Doom passive substituting DFG(obviously lowering the initial damage to something like 10% target max health at best) and with lower/different stats