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Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback

RiotJag·2/22/2019, 6:28:17 PM·1 votes·320,124 views

Hey Teemo mains, Riot Jag here with a set of experimental changes for League’s cutest demon. The stuff I’ll talk about here will be on PBE for early feedback, but it’ll disappear for a couple of months after that while we work on updated VFX to go with the gameplay changes. In the meantime, we’d absolutely love for you all to scout ahead how it all feels on PBE.

To start, here are our goals: Give Teemo players MORE TEEMO (more poisoning, more sneaking!) Resolve some play-against issues (mostly around Blind and Mushrooms) Make him a bit better at high MMR and less of a monster in low MMR

Let’s start with the fun stuff. The Tl;DR: Toxic Shot moved to Passive, and now has synergy with other poison Guerrilla Warfare is now Camouflage instead of Invisibility, and moved to E slot Blind is way more fun (and clear!) More mushrooms!

Poison synergy! Toxic Shot is now Teemo’s passive. It will scale with Teemo’s level, and additionally will deal more damage whenever there are other Poison effects on the target. To support this, Blinding Dart now also counts as a Poison effect (in addition to his Mushrooms, which always have). You can even run Support Teemo with Cassiopeia or Twitch to really double down on the big Toxic Shot damage bonuses!

Stealth while moving! Since Guerrilla Warfare is now Teemo’s E, he can enter stealth while moving, and can even move out of brush while stealthed for a limited period of time! Caveat: this is now Camouflage, instead of Invisibility (refer to our Patch 6.22 Notes). Would love everyone’s feedback on this one, but do me a favor and play it first!

Sweet new Blind trolling! Blinded opponent’s basic attack missiles will fly by harmlessly (they won’t hit Teemo's allies next to him either), landing in the dirt, and melee champions will foolishly swing at air! Pictures are better than words though: Ranged opponent

Melee opponent

More mushrooms! Mushrooms actually gain health with ability rank, making them less trivial to clear when the enemy support is paying attention to you! Additionally, we’re thinking of ways to buff the amount of mushrooms you have late game - in this iteration, Teemo actually can hold up to 3/4/5 shrooms at once.

Now, let’s talk about what Teemo is giving up. If the buffs above are changes that Teemo players would welcome, then the hard part is figuring out what we’d be willing to give up. Here’s the first take.

Camouflage instead of invisibility Now that Teemo can move during stealth (even out of brush), it was pretty unfair for him to fully disappear without any opponent response.

Blinding Dart damage down This version of Teemo has much better access to priority targets with his ability to move while stealthed. Consequently, his burst shouldn't come out quite as quickly.

Mushroom damage down Teemo taking off more than half of a squishy champ's health from across the map with a shroom has been something we’ve been uncomfortable with for a long time, but it was his primary late game contribution so we left it alone. Given the rest of the buffs, this is worth addressing now, so we’re reducing the damage some. The upside - Teemo can actually do more damage if he’s near an enemy that trips over a mushroom, since it will amp his Toxic Shot now.

Guerrilla Warfare AS scales with E rank instead of level Now that his stealth is on the E ability, it just made sense that he got AS as a level-up here. Consequently, he won’t get AS for free when leveling up (you can get it by putting points into E though).

Finally, regarding High MMR/organized play. We believe that between the much higher agency Teemo's new E offers him and the fact that mushrooms are harder for organized opponents to kill, he’ll probably be just better in organized play. We’re not trying to go too hard here, but these are just light bumps to make sure he can stay competitive with the rest of the cast.

So, that’s most of it. I’ll put all the specific lines below, but please hit me up with any and all feedback. Thanks!

Base Stats -Base Mana Regen 1.92 >>> 2.5 -Mana Regen per level 0.09 >>> 0.15 -Mana/lvl up 20 >>> 25

P -Teemo’s basic attacks now deal 10-50 bonus magic damage and leave a Poison DoT that deals 24-192 magic damage over 4 seconds (AP Ratio is same as live E). -Toxic Shot damage (both the on-hit and the DoT) is amped by 50% whenever there are other Poison debuffs on the target

Q -Base damage down 80/125/170/215/260 >>> 80/115/150/185/220 -AP Ratio down 0.8 -> 0.6 -Now is a Poison Debuff

W -No longer breaks stealth

E -New Active: After a 1 second delay, Teemo enters Camouflage for 3-5 seconds. Teemo is slowed by 25/22.5/20/17.5/15% during this effect, and gains 20/30/40/50/60% Attack Speed for 3 seconds when it ends. Camouflage does not tick down while Teemo is in a brush or is standing still.

R -Base Damage down 200/325/450 >>> 150/250/350 -AP ratio down 0.5 >>> 0.4 -Mushrooms health up from 6 at all ranks to 6/8/10 -Mushroom max ammo count up from 3 at all ranks to 3/4/5

Thanks, Riot Jag

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/9.2.1/img/champion/Kaisa.png

901 Comments

DartExplosion102/22/2019, 6:33:27 PM314 votes

I don’t know how I feel about taking away Teemo’s invisibility completely, what about maybe giving him invisibility in brush but camouflage while out of brush?

alechs2/22/2019, 7:05:52 PM165 votes

So Teemo gets 3-5 seconds camouflage, SLOWED and a bit of attack speed afterwards, while Twitch gets 10-14 seconds camouflage, GAINS movement speed and gets a little less attack speed? [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Very Cash Money2/22/2019, 6:57:38 PM124 votes

Not sure I'm a big fan of you just turning his E into twitch Q. I actually don't see the difference, camouflage with attackspeed at end. I'd like for something unique to be added to it at the very least, like perhaps retaining full invisibility in bushes. The bush thing is kinda important since a huge part of teemo has been playing with and around bushes so far, making his stealth camo completely nullifies use inside a bush and just makes him more similar to so many other champs.

While I haven't tried him my other complain is that his W+E combo seemingly would feel too tied together, kind of like pykes W. It seems you would just expect bonus MS while stealthed. Also his W is still a non-ability, could do more here.

Also teemo has low range, giving him strong poison and burst promoted his in and out poke nature, if you reduce his burst in favor of attack speed he will in many ways have an insane overlap with twitch, where only his ult really makes him unique in play style.

Idk, hope to see something more, I'm not against changing teemo per say considering both his W and E feel like non-abilities, but I really don't thing just giving him twitch Q and removing his burst is what does it for him. Id rather you double down on him being patient and strategic with traps and immobile stealth, which is a big part of his current design, rather than yet another slippery sustained damage dealer.

Global Taunty2/22/2019, 7:10:18 PM116 votes

I am the only ones that dont like this? Why teemo gotta be punished because low elo players?.
I think that teemo is fine and the only thing that need some changes is his W and probably his traps where only the person using oracle is able to destroy em so you dont have 5 people hitting your mushrooms with only 1 oracle.
Even tho i dont agree with almost anything there i am going to say why:

  1. E changes, invisibility on his current passive was one of the things the make a difference between a good teemo and a bad one, abusing this was great to watch on good teemos.
    Now it is like copy from twitch BUT you get slowed down which is lame... if you guys make it so you turn INVISIBLE in the bush and CAMOUFLAGE out of the bush that would be great but otherwise is garbage.

2)Teemo´s R taking a huge nerf is awfull you are not only nerfing R base damage but also nerfing his scaling... ill prefer the current one, thanks. It was already unfair that 1 oracle could counter you the whole game.. as i said before, make it so only the person with oracle can destroy your mushrooms and not all the allies.

3)Riot is literally cutting power off his whole kit just for a camouflage and stupid health on mushrooms that does not help at all when you have 5 players hitting em... their goal is "make teemo great in high elo" which is not going to happen just because you add more health to it.. i repeat it once again and i wont get tired of it, the player with the oracle should be the only one being able to discover and remove the mushroom..

ShadowParker2/22/2019, 7:09:22 PM103 votes

Dont nerf the mushrooms

I don’t even play Teemo but I think a large part of playing him IS destroying squishier across the map.

The whole mushroom fantasy is what makes him so attractive and seeing people get destroyed by them is so satisfying

Take power elsewhere but not the mushrooms

Chô72/22/2019, 7:59:41 PM78 votes

Hey, used to stream as a teemo one trick in high diam/masters. I really like the fact that riot is trying to make him playable at a higher elo, and I'll share some thoughts.

First, Taking away his invisibility is a huge mistake. I think it was the only good, play making potential out of the champion. If you do so, you need to make the E viable. Compared to other champs, I don't think that it will be efficient enough. Slowing him down, even with the w, wont make thim able to escape, and/or gank proprely. If you take off his invisibility, you can't take away his movespeed while he is in stealth. A thought to this, would be to keep the slow, but to supress it if teemo W's while he's in his E, that way, good teemos will be able to time their spells right, as opposed to bad ones.

Second, nerfing the damage from the Q is the right thing to do, but I'm not sure about the shrooms. Putting more health on them, and more charges are great changes, maybe the cd needs to be shorter (at least late game), if the damages are that nerfed.

Third, the changes with poisoning is great too, one thought, will it work with Liandry's?

I'm seeing the new teemo mostly played jungle, but I was wondering where you would expect him to go.

Thanks for the work.

Chô7.

TerrorRaven2/22/2019, 6:49:35 PM76 votes

The Self-Slow on his E doesn't sound good. I don't see any reason for this (compare any other champ with a carmoflage skill get movement speed instead of losing it). Instead it would make me not using this skill (or even put any Level ups in it). I was hoping to see some changed on his W, which is one of the most useless skills in LoL.

Badgerclops2/22/2019, 6:37:38 PM75 votes

As much as I am in love with these changes, are you guys planning on doing anything with his horrible model? Placing him next to Kled, Trist and other recently released yordles just feel so bad. He looks like some weird fat potato with a hat. I've been wanting Teemo to get a VGU for a long time but seeing him get gameplay updates without the visual is kinda making me feel sad.

Hustler One2/22/2019, 10:21:54 PM75 votes

I'm not going to mince words with you here, Riot. This rework looks terrible. Like, laughably so. Maybe it will play differently than it reads, but first impressions mean a lot. And my first impression after reading some of these changes is that you guys just don't care. Keep in mind these are just my (strongly worded) opinions. Feel free to disagree.

Passive: Fine. I can get behind this since, to be honest, having to max out a button you couldn't even press just to have a chance of doing anything in lane felt bad.

Q: The animation thing is cute, but that's really about it. I appreciate that it is now treated as a poison so Teemo has some way to stack his own passive buff. Not crazy about nerfing the damage, as it's Teemo's only damaging basic ability, but I won't lose sleep over it. I do feel the Blind debuff as a whole is honestly kind of weak and outdated, but I guess the only alternative would be to change it to a Nearsighted debuff, and that could prove problematic.

W: The fact that this ability wasn't ripped off like a band-aid baffles me. Move Quick ranks as one of the worst abilities in the game. It is a bad movement speed steroid that is ONLY a movement speed steroid. Its passive is laughable, its active is useless unless maxed, and Teemo's short range as far as ranged champs are concerned means that using this offensively is inviting death upon yourself. If ANY spell in Teemo's arsenal needs attention, it's this one.

E: This is a bad joke. Like, this is actually someone trolling Teemo players. "Hey guys, what if we took the already immobile Teemo, and gave him an ability that slows him by 25% at rank 1! Oh, and we'll change his stealth to camouflage so that enemies can see him while he's running away at 25% less movement speed when they get on top of him as soon as he presses the button!" Why?! Why would anyone ever give a champion literally named the SWIFT Scout an ability with such a crippling self slow!? In addition, why would you give a champion 2 buttons that directly contradict one another?! Why would you add anti-synergy into a champions kit? It makes 0 sense. His new E is literally Twitch's Q, but worse. And given that I'm fairly sure you'll be maxing Q first, you are stuck with this awful ability until level 13. And even then, it is still a 15% slow on yourself for now reason. This ability is bad and you should feel bad.

R: Again, not fond of the damage nerfs here, but I can appreciate that something is being done to give Teemo more mushrooms with more health. I think if Teemo had a way to detonate his own mushrooms, that would more warrant a damage nerf. Or if mushrooms, when revealed by stealth detection, exploded after say 3 or so seconds, giving players plenty of time to get away. Though that would make the health changes a tad unhealthy, but it was just a spitballed idea.

Over all judgement: Bad This rework feels like absolutely no thought went into it. It doesn't seem to address many of Teemo's actual problems and only makes certain problems even worse. I hope that Teemo's rework, in THIS state, never makes it off the PBE.

Illidan is HOT2/22/2019, 7:39:40 PM59 votes

Scrap it completely and either leave Teemo alone or think about something else. These changes will destroy the champion, make him clunky to play and propably kill AP teemo while bringing back unkillable on hit cancer Teeto with guinsoo, mallet etc. You're just making another Kog'maw or Kai'sa at this point.

Drorian2/22/2019, 10:26:45 PM46 votes

9 year teemo otp who reached d2 here. I really don't want to be offensive but these changes are absolute garbage. you didn't address the real issues with teemo and they don't really concern only the shrooms. last time you reworked something about teemo phreak told ipav "i know you know better but we know better(ER), you just have to adjust to the playstyle" and see what we got? free red trinket disabling traps for every player in the game. that's one of the main issues with ap teemo's shrooms in a high level game, the fact that anyone with a brain can buy something free. the other issue is teemo can't even get to be a problem in any tf, cause you can't place shrooms during organized tfs, they'll just get destroyed, so you're left with a squishy champ who can aa twice before being oneshot/ccd even when going full tank in the current meta.

so, to put it simple: basically 99% of teemos max e at level 9. now you need level 18 to get the same damage output on aa (BUT WITH 0.0 AP RATIO!!!!!), so you completely destroyed the super tiny wave clearing abilities of teemo. SMART

not only that, you also lowered every other ability's damage, but you added a cool "miss" animation, COOL! FUN! how about you just tell us you don't want us to play teemo at all? where are all these high burst teemo that you fear coming from? I've yet to see a single teemo outburst/outdamage any highrange apcarry, even while the enemy steps on the shrooms.

now let's take a look at teemo's w. it gives movement speed, it's called move quick. so how's it that every champ in the game can outrun a lvl 5 movequick teemo? it's not even a dash. a janna outruns a lvl 5 move quick teemo by default, aatrox, riven, pyke, basically everybody can run faster than teemo and without even having an ability dedicated to just that, at all! and you had the brillant idea to let w untouched for what, another decade of nonsense?

what about teemo's new innovative (NERF) camouflage? every champ who has camouflage gets movement speed, teemo gets a slowdown. are you kidding me??

the really sad thing is that you are even saying you are making improvements (???????) and tellin us to try them before judging. i have no idea how you came out with these changes but the only kind of good thing i can read there is the shroom hp thing, not even the shroom number which is already way too high with the current insane amount of cdr availability. more shrooms, less damage? really? who would want that? silver crybabies who can't buy a red trinket?

Tarcathos2/22/2019, 7:52:14 PM42 votes

Hello Jag,

Just a quick thought/question. The E change actually appears to be an almost strictly worse version of Twitches Q. I am assuming that a large part of these early tests will be to gauge numbers and playability? Is there a passive portion to E that we are not seeing that makes this ability not strictly worse than Twitch Q?

Second, I am guessing you folks are way ahead of us on this, but in an effort to not strip teemo of his uniqueness and add something to this ability I would like to proffer to ideas. 1) While not moving and using the active on E, the range at which Teemo's camouflage can be broken shrinks over time, eventually to the point where you basically have to path over top of him to find him. PEEKABOO!

  1. Teemo is a scout. So, thematically, what if, while not moving and in stealth, he starts using his binoculars, gradually increasing his field of vision so that he can see attackers coming sooner and provide better vision for his team?

Just some thought from your friendly neighborhood loon. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out!

Regards, Tarcathos

MinijinCracK2/22/2019, 7:22:38 PM40 votes

I don't like the ap nerfs

Sauvagess2/22/2019, 9:02:51 PM34 votes

I'm sorry, what? You're removing his invis with a 3-5 second camo? And he's SLOWED during it?! The shortest camo in the game is Twitch at rank 1 Q with 10 seconds, and he gets MORE movement speed during, everything shorter than that is true invisibility. Hell, Shaco's invisibility is longer than that, and it comes with basically a flash on top of it.

Mobility creep is real, and Teemo still has nothing for him but being able to tickle the MS soft cap. This can't go through as is, I'm sorry.

Galiö2/22/2019, 6:47:17 PM33 votes

Is this real or a birthday joke?

Gem Daddy2/22/2019, 6:51:10 PM32 votes

Having his new camouflage slow him and then having another ability just to speed him up seems very inefficient, I would say replace his W with the camo and make what used to be the poison darts a whole new ability. Additionally, while the blinding auto attack misses seem like a good idea in concept, it could cause a lot of players to get easily tilted seeing their champions attack in a completely different direction.

Rugged Lemmings2/22/2019, 8:08:51 PM31 votes

Sooooo you're turning him into a crappy knock-off version of Twitch. Lovely.

Impish Yordle2/22/2019, 9:03:54 PM31 votes

Current problems of Teemo:

  • Constant barrage of point-and-click and auto attacks during the laning phase the enemy can't do much about

  • Reliance on shrooms and Blind during the lategame

  • Too dangerous to go into auto attack range outside of most 1v1s because he's immobile, squishy and has low range for a ranged auto attacker

  • Blind and shrooms are the only things in his repertoire that make him unique enough to stand out from other picks and are the only reason why someone would consider picking him at all, let alone in high elo

  • Shrooms are very easy to clear, denying him his last resort in the lategame

What those changes would do to Teemo:

  • Barrage of low-effort auto attacks is going to be even more problematic than before to enemies during the laning phase

  • There's even less Teemo can do during the lategame for his team due to shroom nerfs

  • He's more reliant on going sub-optimally into auto attack range during lategame because everything else got nerfed for it

  • Blind and shrooms, the only things giving him some niche received nerfs, leaving even less reason to pick him over someone that is simply a better auto attacker or better AP DPS damage-dealer in general (cough Cassio cough Vlad cough) especially in high elo

  • Shroom health changes do nothing

  • When people cleanse his new Blind he will both lose damage avoidance AND damage-amplification. Remember how QSS used to remove Fiora's and Trundle's ults and how much it would screw them over when it happened? That's what's going to happen to Teemo and high elo players will abuse that even more.

  • Self-slows feel utterly terrible for the player unless you are charging some long-ranged ability. Leave them out whenever possible when designing something, please.

Verdict: Those changes do little to nothing to address Teemo's main problems. In fact it makes most of them a lot worse. They feel like very simple-minded theory-crafting with little to no thought put into the big picture. You are overestimating the value of the few buffs it includes and most of them are not worth what Teemo gives up for them to even consider them a buff. You are nerfing a lot of the qualities that give him a niche for a quantity of nonsense he can't put to good use and which crosses into a territory other champions are better at. He becomes less unique and even more of a generic auto attacker too. He becomes less Teemo, rather than more. The poison changes also remind me of failed Cassio kit changes in the past, funnily enough. Teemo needs changes but he needs changes that are both worthwhile and address his problems. Those changes do none of that and in the few instances where they pretend to do so it comes at a cost that adds onto other problems or creates new ones.

Pyro2/22/2019, 8:10:00 PM30 votes

Teemo is what I primarily have been playing for years and will actually quit if done wrong. I didn't like the Quinn changes much where you changed her for more viability but in the end pros dropped her and no one but me plays her. If this is going to be a change where the pros will be playing for the next 6 months until he gets nerf'ed to the ground where no one can play him, I am actually going to uninstall and never touch this game again. Not a huge thing since there aren't a lot of huge Teemo only players around but please don't attempt to fix something that isn't broken to break it later on. People playing him in hybrid/on hit will be buffed whereas assassin full AP style player like me might be struggling.

Overall, I can welcome the changes as long as he still keeps his identity which seems to be shifting off a bit. Please do this well since he is one of the 3 only champions I care about and play, he is the champion I play the most by far.

Foromar2/22/2019, 7:57:29 PM30 votes

Seems like a lot of bad trades, that will leave him far weaker than before.

  • Does his passive still keep the old E ratios? (you loose damage anyway since it now scales with level)
  • W and E really stick out as useless and contradicting skills
  • A champ with only 1 main damage ability will always be skewed towards either uselessness or op. It is just too much power in 1 ability to balance it properly.
Lelantos092/23/2019, 2:18:44 AM29 votes

@Riot Jag

So, as a Teemo main I can safely say with what you have listed here, you are going to destroy the champion.

You are removing his invisibility which is a big part of his game play, it allows for ambushes, escape, and helps with his survivability.

You are giving his camouflage (that last 3-5 seconds) in its place which has an area around the champ that whenever someone gets in that circle they can see the champion hiding. That means Teemo will be found and killed instantly as he wont be able to escape from enemy champions looking for him any more. You're also lowering his movement speed when he is camouflaged which means he wont be out running anyone and that's not even taking into account that it will take a full second for it to even activate and that's a long time when fighting (I see a Twitch clone attempt here) or trying to run away and survive.

The Teemo Shrooms, well, I like that you are allowing him to carry more. It makes up for that crappy timer you all reduced them to so that's a plus at least.

Now for the down side to the Teemo shroom nerf, you are taking away a major part of his damage here. You are not only reducing the base damage they do but you are also reducing the AP scaling ration by a considerable margin here as well which will further weaken his presence in the game and his ability to contribute in matches. You're adding more hit points to his shrooms to make them survive longer against attacks from the enemy team. Why? This does nothing in the long term to help Teemo at all. Sure, his shrooms go from taking say 3 hits to kill now to taking 5 or 6 hits to kill if that. Honestly this is a really pointless thing to do because they are meant to be traps not whatever it is you're trying to make them into. Honestly this is a major nerf to Teemo, there is just no other way to really look at this if one is to be honest.

The poison synergy thing is nice, especially so if you were not nerfing his all of his damage abilities into the ground to make up for it. Now with these changes you are forcing Teemo to be reliant on having someone like Twitch, Cass, or Singed in the game and fighting with him to boost his damage or to have the opposing player hit a shroom and Teemo being near by with his Camo (that anyone can find him in just by walking by him) and hitting the affected target.

The Blinding Dart adding poison is a really cool idea and I really like that. What I don't like is that is that you are again nerfing his damage with it.

As to his group play, Teemo is a scout, he does hit and run attacks, split pushes, and other, well, Teemo things. He is by definition and lore not a hugely group oriented champion like you are seemingly trying to turn him into. If you want Teemo to be more competitive then this is by far the worst way to do it, it will completely destroy the champion.

Again, this just looks like a major nerf on Teemo all around for those in the low ranks that don't know how to counter him. There is a ton of ways to do it if people stopped to think.

The only buff that I see is to the mana he gets which is really nice.

Support 4 Lyfe2/22/2019, 6:59:34 PM28 votes

These are actually pretty nice, but I'm not liking the base damage and ap ratio nerfs, they're way too big and noticeable.

Teemo lost 30% ap ratio on his entire kit and 40 damage lost on his Q, not to mention his ult losing about 100 damage.

Goozzy2/23/2019, 1:19:03 AM26 votes

Just a weaker Twitch and not as fun with builds. All that money I spent on teemo skins gone if this comes out, Its awful!

Is this an early April fool's joke?

CHODES AND LOADS2/23/2019, 2:04:59 AM22 votes

no, hes fine. stop trying to fix what isnt broken. people like teemo for a reasosn. maybe work on the shit nobody likes.

xBlotter2/23/2019, 9:49:20 PM22 votes

Initial Feedback after testing

Poison synergy! Interesting change, would be interesting if like his other poison counterparts (Singed/Cass) his shrooms would also add a grounding effect since they're losing out on damage now and are reliant for him to get his full damage out now.

Stealth while moving! I'm ok with losing the invisibility in exchange for the camo if he could actually move normally while stealthed, currently the self slow is very painful and doesn't allow you to get very far at all.

Sweet new Blind trolling! Although funny this isn't really "adding" anything to his kit, this is just taking what Graves already did and applying it to all champs, looks funny but changes nothing.

More mushrooms! The extra health per rank is a great touch, currently shrooms are cleared super easily, the extra health won't save shrooms from duskblade tho. The extra charges look nice on paper but a late game Teemo dropping shrooms before capping doesn't really see "More Shrooms" you can "hold" more but you won't actually "place" more as opposed to live, max shrooms out is still pretty much the same.

Now, let’s talk about what Teemo is giving up. If the buffs above are changes that Teemo players would welcome, then the hard part is figuring out what we’d be willing to give up. Here’s the first take.

Camouflage instead of invisibility I'm ok if he could ACTUALLY MOVE, not crawl. Would really like to keep the invis in bushes though.

Blinding Dart damage down Again, another nerf because of the "movement" of stealth, which is really just a crawl, as his only damaging spell, the Base+AP ratio nerfs together are felt pretty hard.

Mushroom damage down I'm completely understanding of nerfing shroom damage, late game shrooms are really brutal. My only problem here is that Teemo has no wave clear and shrooms are his only form of wave clear. On Live you can start clearing the casters at level 11 when building AP, on PBE you're unable to clear casters until level 16. Really feels bad for trying to clear and roam, you're basically stuck in lane forever with this change.

Guerrilla Warfare AS scales with E rank instead of level This makes sense, a trade off in burst/dps choosing between maxing Q or E, my problem here is that you reach 60% AS later than you would on live, and on Live you can get to 80% AS which you know longer get with this new version.

All in all, I really like the direction of the changes, I've expected nerfs or a rework for Teemo for some time. There definitely needs to be some adjustments on the numbers, and I strongly feel like the self slow on the stealth is very unneeded. For reference, Twitch gets a 10sec stealth with a 10-30% MS buff at rank 1. Teemo's rank 5 stealth is 5 seconds and self slows by 15% completely negating his move quick ability EVEN if you activate move quick you're still slower until you have both abilities maxed. It feels -really- bad.

Now these are just what I saw from play testing for a day, on a side note, his poison DoT is not doing the damage values it displays, it's actually doing much lower damage. Tested this on dummies and also on minions with 0 MR, the values are much lower at later levels.

Spideraxe2/22/2019, 6:34:51 PM22 votes

Hey Jag do you worry Teemo may become more frustrating with these changes, since the blind changes look super tilting even tho functionality is the same

Puddy2/22/2019, 7:46:43 PM22 votes

As someone whos been passionate about Teemo since season 3, please consider the following.

I really like the stealth changes - it looks exciting and it'll be objectively a healthier spell. Right now i think the camouflage is quite good as you can easily burst a squishy and get out. I think this new version will be more accesible and all-round useful. Thats the best change yet. The unfortunate thing that will be going away with this stealth change is that there will be no more camouflage outplays. Stealthing in the middle of the lane and waiting for that squishy to show up, or stealthing in the side of the lane and waiting for the laner to walk into your mushroom isnt gonna be a thing anymore. I could totally see why that needs to go though as it can feel unfair to play against.

The thing i massively dislike is the ap ratio and shroom changes. Currently and historically teemo has been awful at building AP. He rather builds magic pen because he just doesnt scale that well with AP. Liandrys + Sorc, Oblivion orb and void staff will give more damage then deathcap could. With the AP Ratio nerfs you are moving teemo from an assasin poison mage playstyle to a generic on-hit champion. Not only that but moving teemo away from his mushroom playstyle goes against what teemo inherently is. There is a dedicated playerbase who play teemo for his mushrooms, thats his identity. I dont think its fair to move teemo away from that. Mushrooms is what makes teemo unique, and is what makes teemo - well, teemo. Please please keep this in mind, his mushrooms are teemo.

brainstorming here: What about making teemo's mushrooms leave behind a cloud of poison (when walked over) that slows and damages those who stand in it ? It would solve the instant damage issue but still make teemo able to zone enemies, follow up on good shroom placement and contribute in teamfights. It would preserve teemo's identity, but move away from what you guys find problematic.

Trainer7652/23/2019, 12:55:27 AM22 votes

I've been a Teemo main for about 3 years now, and I absolutely do not like the changes. With Teemo, yea he's strong in bronze, but only if you don't have the knowledge of how to defeat him. I could defeat a gank from an enemy by using my wits and knowledge as Teemo. I feel like this will just turn him into a weaker Twitch, because Teemo's kit allowed him to kill from across the map by knowing enemy pathing. Teemo requires the full knowledge of the champ and the champ he's facing. I feel like these changes are going to make Teemo obsolete, because why would I play reworked Teemo when I could just play Twitch, who would be a much stronger version of Teemo. His passive is very very good if you use it correctly. I would be playing against a really fed auto attack based ADC, and I would see them coming down mid lane so I'd hide ahead of them and then out of nowhere pop out and shut them down bettering our chances in winning. AP attack speed Teemo will be much weaker because his poison autos won't scale on AP anymore. These changes will make Teemo solely a spellcasting champ because his Q will be the only thing doing anything, the new passive will increase damage which I would love. Except, the reduced damage on his Q and R makes this change an all-around nerf to his kit. Unless they super buff his health, armor, and MR scaling and base stats, I don't see these changes doing anything, but making him like Urgot before his rework, which was useless.

jujifruits2/22/2019, 9:20:26 PM22 votes

Teemo is all about preplanning. Shrooms need to be placed early and Teemo needs to stand still before a fight for the Invisibility. These have a high skill cap to make optimal use of. These changes would be a huge nerf to that playstyle and change Teemo into a bad version of Twitch.

I appreciate y'all giving attention to Teemo but I really hope you don't go through with this.

Teimo2/22/2019, 7:42:02 PM19 votes

To be honest, what's the point of giving him a mobile stealth if there's no burst combo damage at the end of it, this is a huge nerf to teemo imo. look at shaco, look at twitch, see how easily they would die after their stealth if they didn't have a one shot combo? and his stealth can't be used as a mean to escape because you guys literally added a slow during the stealth.

Teemo is already oppressed out of lane against tanks that build full mr as it is, he used to be a lane bully but now in high elo you have to play passively and farm until the lane phase is over, and that's before these nerfs.

Pyjama Trauma2/22/2019, 8:16:52 PM18 votes

Oh great, another champ riot is going to ruin...

4n412/22/2019, 11:58:09 PM18 votes

I don't like any of this, frankly.

The moving stealth is not part of Teemo's niche and is not welcome to me. The rest is basically a giant nerf to compensate for it. Aside from the poison synergy, which is... situational and most of the time very useless.

I feel like these changes take away a large part of Teemo's identity and attempt to compartmentalize him into niches other champions already fill.

If these changes go through, or anything similar, I will probably not play Teemo anymore.

Captain Teembro2/22/2019, 8:52:31 PM17 votes

Reposting from my reddit post: I'm a degenerate Teemo main. I'm not a Challenger level player like everyone else on Reddit, instead I'm trash who made it to Plat 2 > Plat 1 Promos last season and am currently in Plat 4 with the few games I've felt like playing in this season due to really bad matchups bumming me out and the positional matchmaking making my fill games meaningless.

I'll start with the things I like:

  • Putting his poison as his passive is a great idea. His strong point has always been "stack a shroom, hit some poison and ignite and tick down the enemy" and I believe that being able to let him have this poison while also leveling up blind first will significantly help his laning phase in the higher elos (though I think this will be harder for low elo players to deal with).
  • Q procs poison. Assuming I read this right, the Q should add a stack of passive to the enemy now. Another great change that I've been wanting for a while.
  • Camouflage really helps with Teemo's ganking potential

Now for the things I don't like:

  • I'm going to start with the big problem: His R. It seems with every year that passes by, there are more and more ways for players to detect traps and wards (sweeper, duskblade, pink wards, etc). The issue with mushrooms is two fold: In low elo, players don't know how to ward or clear traps, so an ultimate like his mushrooms feels broken due to no one knowing how to use these mechanics. Once you hit gold, people start knowing how to clear better, so it's not quite as toxic for the enemy team to deal with. Platinum and above, however, people can clear his mushrooms fairly easily. There's really not much help from shrooming an objective anymore when all of your mushrooms can be cleared in 10 seconds because the enemy team naturally has a player with duskblade and 1 or two players have a sweeping orb. The higher damage was the only thing, imo, keeping this ability somewhat balanced in high elo, since it punished a player's mistake and could force an enemy adc or mage to go back, allowing your team to start a 4 v 5 fight. The mushroom health is meaningless since once a shroom is detected, it's cleared instantly. I'd much rather see his mushroom timer increase per rank than the amount he can carry, since his shrooms are mostly glorified wards at this point. 5/6/7 minutes respectively. I also think lowering the ap ratio -and- base damage is an overkill, especially since you are also lowering the burst damage from the Q by a lot. Lower one, sure I guess, but please not both (I think lowering the base damage is best) If Riot truly insists on the quantity over quality approach, then make his ammo count go 3/4/6, so you can at least protect an objective or your base via numbers now while the mushrooms themselves deal much less damage.
  • Losing invisibility in brush is huge. I think allowing him to keep invisibility while in brushes wouldn't hurt him, considering these changes would make him lose a lot of damage output (which is really the only way he's able to survive half the time).
  • No ap scaling on the poison passive also murders a lot of Teemo's damage output. Teemo is only barely hanging onto being played because he can exert a high amount of damage if he flanks or goes unnoticed. Late game he's still viable because from just his aa alone he can do 200+ damage on hit, not even counting any bonuses like Nashor's tooth, red buff, the poison DoT itself, etc. Yes, his damage output is now buffed from poison procs, but this doesn't compensate enough for high elo where if you blink you're dead. My suggestion would be to add a 0.1 or 0.2 ap ratio onto his passive (both on hit and DoT). It's a small amount but adds up steadily, which I think is the direction Riot wants to take Teemo. It won't make the burst too high for lower elo but won't completely butcher Teemo in high elo.

Odd thing I noticed and personal suggestion:

  • His W seems counter intuitive with his new E ability, as W is simply there to give passive movement speed (usually to chase enemies or engage) while the E lowers that movement speed but is... also primarily an engagement tool? I think having two abilities with the same use that contradict each other isn't very helpul for Teemo's kit as a whole. Honestly, I think you can actually combine these two abilities by having him get passive movement speed at all times (when not damaged and only while he's visible) and have the active be a much smaller movement speed boost and attack speed boost (when coming out of stealth), and have his E be a whole new ability completely, like a scouting ability where he makes use of his telescope (he is a scout, afterall)? He could scout an area in a line or cone in front of him (slightly smaller range than Xerath's Q) and reveal enemies in bush and also allow himself and allies to deal increased damage to enemies scouted by Teemo for the next few seconds. This could also work well with Teemo's own kit, as he can then get a small damage bonus from his poison bonus as well as a small "scout bonus" to help out his nerfed damage ratios and also increasing his survivability in enemy territory. This being a "skill shot" ability will also make a bigger difference for Teemo being used in low elo vs high elo, a difference that is more than just numbers and ratios.
LowKeyMLG2/22/2019, 7:38:15 PM17 votes

Just a random thought but I think it would be an interesting mechanic if Teemo could target his shrooms with his q loading them with blinding poison.

Shunye2/23/2019, 1:33:07 AM16 votes

to be honest, none of these changes feel like buffs. Teemo is still in this place where he has just enough mobility for his kit to work, but by taking away damage from his e and replacing it with an activated camo (which does not work at all if it slows since if you are in lane people can see where you are and if you are trying to activate it to walk into lane for some poke like twitch or shaco, you will slow down and take longer to get to the lane. teemo is my 3rd most played champ so I can understand his faults as well as his upsides, and these changes seem to be all nerfs instead of anything that fixes his problems (like the lack of a dash or gap closer as well as his short attack range). The changes basically turn him into a ghetto version of twitch.

Seaskipper2/22/2019, 8:15:49 PM16 votes

Well, this is a HUGE nerf to Teemo for the below reasons:

  1. invisibility > camouflage.
  2. with camouflage there is no real engage tool for Teemo, standing still while enemy walks by
  3. since camouflage is weaker than invisibility, normally as an ability, it provides something way more. e.g. Twitch gets attackspeed, movement speed and lasts 14 sec or so. Teemo is slowed and only lasts 3-4 sec. As I said, this is not a real engage tool like twitch's who can move around for 14 sec for positioning.
  4. with the E moving to passive, I didn't help but notice the missing AP ratio. Considering damage this is a huge damage nerf, especially late game
  5. ultimate can store more shrooms that's true but the damage is again nerfed, AP ratio also nerfed
  6. Q damage nerfed, AP also nerfed

All in all, you took away Teemo's engage and nerfed his damage hard. GOD BLESS RIOT when nerfing a champion that can only be seen in competitive games as a stuffed plush doll on the table and not as a chosen champion in champ select. I have't seen Teemo in competitive games for years. GOD BLESS RIOT's LIVE DESIGN TEAM.

edit #1 - PS: I do not play Teemo so I am impartial. edit #2 - PS: Maybe RIOT wants to destroy AP Teemo and bring back Tankmo. But for this they need to buff his stats hard, e.g. HP, armour, base AD

Burly Braum2/22/2019, 8:28:12 PM16 votes

Honestly Teemo is his shrooms, if you nerf that you kill the fantasy. I'd much rather see that massively buffed and the rest of his kit nerfed to compensate, not the other way around.

Beautiful Moon2/22/2019, 9:09:18 PM14 votes

Teemo has needed changes or updates for a very long time, and while I see a couple things in here I appreciate the ideas for (Passive and mushroom health), it wont really help push him into a better place. He has no place he can go that feels like he belongs there, having a movement speed buff as an active really isn't "mobility" in this day and age of champions, he's just outdated, you have to rework him to make him, well... Usable. Even against his usual counterpicks (Darius, Garen, Nasus, etc.) they all have better ways of getting to you and just killing you like you're nothing. If a champion cant do its' job because of the game state, what good are these changes going to make? Making him slowed but able to camo for like a pitiful amount of seconds isn't going to help anything.

His strengths are in his mushrooms and this in-and-out dueling thing he does. I've played him for too many years that I'm just fairly unhappy with how he's been for a lot of those years, the worst thing was oracles. Even back in the day, if somebody spent 500 gold on oracles, you could focus them so that you could continue putting down your dominance in the areas you're strong in, securing objectives and making the jungle a scary place to walk into alone. With oracles being what it is now, it's not uncommon for 3 players on the enemy team to oracles every mushroom you have off the map, and adding 3 more health wont do anything to prevent that, especially if they space their oracles out and even with 45% CDR, you cant put down as many mushrooms as you need to before they're swept again. There needs to be some form of exception for him and his mushrooms that oracles cant see, if you're going to take away damage from the areas he's strong in and what makes his kit work.

A real escape, making him immune to slows when he uses his W, something, he needs something to help him feel like the counterpick he's supposed to be rather than getting pulled by a no-item Darius and dying because you literally cant do anything but flash, and chances are he'll flash ghost on you and kill you regardless. Give him something, he needs something else than what you're trying to do. Keep the toxic shot on his passive, that's a good start, but try working on what actually makes him unpickable into most champions.

KsSoHyôKo2/23/2019, 1:20:23 AM14 votes

-The slow on E is terrible and doesn't make sense with the swift scout.

-Teemo should be able to get the invisibility while in bushes and camouflage when outside

-Teemos E is like twitch Q so why can twitch back while invisible while teemo can't ?

Makos2/22/2019, 7:56:14 PM13 votes

Change camouflage to stealth when he's standing still or in bush.

Ricey2/22/2019, 11:50:08 PM13 votes

2m + points combined accounts teemo, i think his kit is fine the way he is, his w needs to be updated tho its pretty much useless against champions with 600 dashes, i think his range needs to be slightly buffed too and that would make him way more viable, also do something about that sweeper , one item counters pretty much the entire champion